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dead gay comedy forums)
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Dude you're not even laying out a loving structured argument. Like you've posted a lot of confused words and it's not even clear to me where exactly you disagree with Marx or Marxism or whatever, let alone any of your reasoning. Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 22:25 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 22:16
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Raskolnikov38 posted:its you, you were the karl popper poster in a previous reg weren't you No, I have basically no philosophical background, my dumbass thought theology was the answer. The theological basis (I'm agnostic now) drives my ideologies and I think is why I have difficulty communicating online in general. And my inability to not sound arrogant, which I truly don't intend.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:18
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BillsPhoenix posted:Eh, I'm hoping I get a rebuttal of PE. If yall wanna defend services as productive and then claim that's what Marx would do, that's on you. dead gay comedy forums posted:a Pareto optimum is realistically impossible, because the conditions for such are ideal and immaterial - you need a perfectly competitive market without friction or failure/defect as a necessity. Aside from that, there are multiple Pareto equilibria that can result from achieving that efficiency. If someone holds all the relevant wealth of the world and everybody else is just surviving, that is a Pareto equilibrium - you can't make the rest of the world better without making that person lose position. BillsPhoenix posted:but attacking PE, or my terrible posting style, doesn't address the issue Marxism thread posted:several posts worth of elaboration in different angles and examples and discussion BillsPhoenix posted:I now get why this space and debate are quite literally unable to interact.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:19
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Like seriously, look at this loving post:BillsPhoenix posted:Tendency of Rate of Profit to fall. First line, what even is this? Are you giving your post a title? Is this the subject line of an e-mail, like use full loving sentences dude. Second line. An assertion that there is a "failure to address racism and sexism". You don't demonstrate this failure actually exists. You don't explain what specifically this supposed failure would change or invalidate. Third line, more propositions and assertions. Fourth line, vaguely referring to "most posters" and agreeing with something you are asserting those posters supposedly believe. No demonstration that this is true. Referring to Marx defining specific terms, but not bringing in the actual definition. You're definitely just mischaracterizing both Marx and "most posters" here. Fifth line, assertions blabla who gives a poo poo. Just shoddy loving logic and castles built of air. Sixth line, take a loving guess? You're just posting some short sentences that aren't even meaningfully connected to eachother. How does any of this follow? You're not defining anything, which doesn't convince me you even understand the Marxist definitions. You're not providing any examples. Just garbage. Tl;Dr, your ability to lay out reasoning and an argument is horrendous. It makes me wonder if it is your ability to communicate that is lovely or your ability to think. Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 22:29 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 22:25
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BillsPhoenix posted:I'm going to try again, starting over. I am criticizing the empirical "proof" of trpf. I don't believe it can be proven. try to start and end with physical input and outputs i think that's getting in your way here try to not start or end with any abstraction that'd require its own explanation or you'll confuse constructs and real variables up, then you've got "the invisible hand of the market" kinda stuff that can follow patterns within markets and still have no real connection to reality , real life isn't instant or frictionless or perfectly efficient or w/e and that stuff makes pockets of make-believe to smooth over problems with without even noticing
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Feb 8, 2024 22:27
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Orange Devil posted:Dude you're not even laying out a loving structured argument. My biggest issue right now is an inability to level set. If I can't verify what how Marx is using the terms, or where I'm misunderstanding... it's chaos. I agree with the theory of surplus value. I disagree with trpf being an inevitable end to capitalism, which puts me at odds with most of the rest of Marxs theories.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:37
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BillsPhoenix posted:That was more arrogant than intended. youre trying to argue that entropy doesnt exist because our sun hasnt shown any sign of losing its heat
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Feb 8, 2024 22:38
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Wasn't Gillman’s argument that rather than defining the ROP as s/(c+v),it should be defined as (s–u)/(c+v), where ‘u’ is certain unproductive expenditures of surplus value? Gillman proposed the common view that (s – u) is equal to after-tax profits from production is not correct. The difference between the two has a deeper theoretical significance: it shows that a value theory approach implies the need to account for the difference between ‘non-fictitious’ profits and the profits actually recorded by businesses and investors.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:39
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BillsPhoenix posted:My biggest issue right now is an inability to level set. If I can't verify what how Marx is using the terms, or where I'm misunderstanding... it's chaos. youre a dumbass
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Feb 8, 2024 22:39
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BillsPhoenix posted:My biggest issue right now is an inability to level set. If I can't verify what how Marx is using the terms, or where I'm misunderstanding... it's chaos. Pretty sure Marx explains how he uses his terms in his writing. Dude is pretty tedious about that stuff. I don't know what level set means. I think it's a math term? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_set (my actual point is: speak loving normally jesus christ)
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Feb 8, 2024 22:39
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youre all engaging with a person that cant reconcile their worldview with the concept of “what goes up must come down”
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Feb 8, 2024 22:40
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Except my worldview aligns worth the world as is today. Capitalism hasn't imploded. As opposed to the view the collapse is inevitable because of Marxist theories, and eventually this must be proven true. It just.... hasn't yet.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:54
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scary ghost dog posted:youre all engaging with a person that cant reconcile their worldview with the concept of “what goes up must come down” BillsPhoenix posted:No, I have basically no philosophical background, my dumbass thought theology was the answer. I'm equally confused about this, because... I mean, I have a theological education as well, K-12 and undergraduate, and I don't see a conflict here. The case for understanding Marx, or you could say the general tenants of socialism, through a theological lens is, if anything, much easier to make. Rather than looking at charts and graphs, Luke 18:25, Philippians 2:2-6, Matthew 6:24, James 5:1-6, Ephesians 5:1-3; Matthew 11:29; John 13:12-17; 1 Peter 2:21 etc. BillsPhoenix posted:Except my worldview aligns worth the world as is today. Capitalism hasn't imploded. This is also true of entropy. scary ghost dog posted:youre trying to argue that entropy doesnt exist because our sun hasnt shown any sign of losing its heat Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 23:02 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 23:00
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BillsPhoenix posted:Except my worldview aligns worth the world as is today. Capitalism hasn't imploded. does it??? do you live in a world with no tarnish, no rusted-out car chassis stacked up in the scrapyard, no corporations hollowed out by capital as their rate of profit began to fall????? do you live in america????????
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Feb 8, 2024 23:00
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Maybe they're an English speaking ex-pat living in China and a coconut dropped on their head? 'I see absolutely no sign of capitalism falling apart. Why, look at this amazing company called the 'CPC', which seems to be only expanding it's holdings and buying out competing businesses. It's practically a nation all it's own! '
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Feb 8, 2024 23:12
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Frosted Flake posted:I'm equally confused about this, because... I mean, I have a theological education as well, K-12 and undergraduate, and I don't see a conflict here. The case for understanding Marx, or you could say the general tenants of socialism, through a theological lens is, if anything, much easier to make. Truth. First it was the existence of only 1, absolute truth. God is truth and truth is God (or the word). A marvelously simple way to explain literally everything, while ignoring anything. Then truth became relative, personal, societal, communal, physical earth, universal, etc. Which without any philosophical background, is messy af.
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Feb 8, 2024 23:18
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BillsPhoenix posted:Truth. First it was the existence of only 1, absolute truth. God is truth and truth is God (or the word). A marvelously simple way to explain literally everything, while ignoring anything. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9u5iHzag120&pp=ygUedGhlIGtpbmcgYW5kIGkgaXMgYSBwdXp6bGVtZW50
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Feb 8, 2024 23:23
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BillsPhoenix posted:No, I have basically no philosophical background, my dumbass thought theology was the answer. One thing that made it easier for me to get political economy and Marxism is history. Once you understand that history isn't the Past, but a series of arguments about the past and see how so many thing we take for granted today have changed over place and time you can see capitalism - the economic mode of production that currently dominates our global society - as something that is both historical (contingent on place and time) and something of a historical process (that produces historical actors and actions). So it might be helpful just to dive into more history, whatever subject you like really. Modern historians really like to emphasize how a thing changes and was particular to its time and that gets you in the right mindset. The simplest argument against capitalism being inevitable is that no economic system we've ever developed has lasted. There is no reason to believe capitalism is the end state. I may get destroyed by the thread regulars over even recommending this but Capitalism by Paul Bowles in the Short Histories of Big Ideas series might be a good place to start to help you historicize capitalism and see how people have talked about it in different ways (including Marx). Dreylad has issued a correction as of 23:28 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 23:23
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Unimportant but Luke 18:25 was almost certainties written by Constatine/those working with him to discourage the newly formed Christians, with lots of ties to/former anti Roman Jewish zealots, from pursuing wealth. The new testemant is largely a planned tool to reduce squalor and revolt, and it's drat good at it.
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Feb 8, 2024 23:24
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BillsPhoenix posted:Unimportant but Luke 18:25 was almost certainties written by Constatine/those working with him to discourage the newly formed Christians, with lots of ties to/former anti Roman Jewish zealots, from pursuing wealth. Ho boy If you don’t mind my asking, what denomination were you raised in?
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Feb 8, 2024 23:26
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BillsPhoenix posted:Truth. First it was the existence of only 1, absolute truth. God is truth and truth is God (or the word). A marvelously simple way to explain literally everything, while ignoring anything. well if youre devoutly faithful in the concept of an infinitely powerful god then i understand why youre having trouble understanding the concept of entropy
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Feb 8, 2024 23:27
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if God is a capitalist, which He must be because America is, then the rate of profit can no more fall than God himself can err. QED
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Feb 8, 2024 23:29
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scary ghost dog posted:well if youre devoutly faithful in the concept of an infinitely powerful god then i understand why youre having trouble understanding the concept of entropy No, he’s saying he’s not. He’s devoutly faithful in the concept of an infinitely powerful and everlasting market. scary ghost dog posted:if God is a capitalist, which He must be because America is, then the rate of profit can no more fall than God himself can err. QED Was it Huckabee that wrote a book saying almost exactly this?
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Feb 8, 2024 23:29
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Frosted Flake posted:Ho boy Bethany - aka the unincorporated evangelical cults. Isn't entropy... proven? As in its a hard science law, practical real world applications are used? It's only the application of entropy to global climate crises that's "debated?
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Feb 8, 2024 23:31
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BillsPhoenix posted:My analogy would be philosophy vs physics. It's just fundamentally different. you understand neither philosophy nor physics
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Feb 8, 2024 23:33
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BillsPhoenix posted:Bethany - aka the unincorporated evangelical cults. Many such cases. This just came up in the IP thread, but American prods are raised in such a way you can hardly call turning away from that apostasy. It’s like if someone stopped being Arian or Nestorian. Huckabees book was “The Three Cs That Made America Great: Christianity, Capitalism and the Constitution” which, yeah, if I grew up in a family believing that I would absolutely turn away from it, but being raised with… a … colourful idea of what Christianity and Capitalism are, I can understand why other people making systemic critiques seems indecipherable too.
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Feb 8, 2024 23:34
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BillsPhoenix posted:Bethany - aka the unincorporated evangelical cults. yeah. you can see evidence of entropy in every single process that occurs in the universe. one way that entropy manifests in economics is in the tendency of the rate of profit to fall
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Feb 8, 2024 23:34
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scary ghost dog posted:yeah. you can see evidence of entropy in every single process that occurs in the universe. one way that entropy manifests in economics is in the tendency of the rate of profit to fall 
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Feb 8, 2024 23:34
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karl popper i.e. the daddy of le epic rationalistic discourse of science (which is all about that fetishistic notion of proof) literally rambled against entropy lmao
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Feb 8, 2024 23:38
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the law of the tendency of the rate of profit to fall has some apparently sound formalised counter-arguments (it does not mathematically follow from definitions), most notably the okishio theorem. this means that it is possible to imagine a world in which the rate of profit does not tend to fall. the weight of observations does not seem to bear out that this is the world in which we're living, however
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Feb 8, 2024 23:39
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V. Illych L. posted:the law of the tendency of the rate of profit to fall has some apparently sound formalised counter-arguments (it does not mathematically follow from definitions), most notably the okishio theorem. this means that it is possible to imagine a world in which the rate of profit does not tend to fall. perfectly spherical earth theory aka PSET suggests that Marx was mistaken about TRPF because he had assumed we were living on an oblate spheroid, not taking into account that if that were true then the earth wouldnt look round from space.
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Feb 8, 2024 23:42
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dead gay comedy forums posted:karl popper i.e. the daddy of le epic rationalistic discourse of science (which is all about that fetishistic notion of proof) literally rambled against entropy lmao he also had huge trouble with darwinian evolutionary theory because it behaves in practice almost exactly like the things he calls pseudo-science. popper is useful to scientists in that the hypothetical-deductive method is a very handy tool and an excellent rule of thumb to avoid a lot of cognitive traps, but i don't know anyone who actually takes it entirely seriously.
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Feb 8, 2024 23:43
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Capitalism would never implode, market is at all time highs says man on Sept 3, 1929
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Feb 8, 2024 23:45
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V. Illych L. posted:he also had huge trouble with darwinian evolutionary theory because it behaves in practice almost exactly like the things he calls pseudo-science. popper is useful to scientists in that the hypothetical-deductive method is a very handy tool and an excellent rule of thumb to avoid a lot of cognitive traps, but i don't know anyone who actually takes it entirely seriously. we were discussing just that earlier, biologists railed hard against him because of how much dumbfuckery he laid out about what should be “scientific” that basically meant “physics and chemistry” - and then realized that even physicists were calling bullshit about that
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Feb 8, 2024 23:47
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I’m just confused about how the TSX being open in the morning is proof that the system is stable.
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Feb 8, 2024 23:49
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scary ghost dog posted:perfectly spherical earth theory aka PSET suggests that Marx was mistaken about TRPF because he had assumed we were living on an oblate spheroid, not taking into account that if that were true then the earth wouldnt look round from space. imo what okishio does (i think he himself suggested this?) is demonstrate that TRPF has to be a historical law of capitalism, i.e. it has to be a tendency which is demonstrated through the study of actual economic developments. this is important because it means it cannot simply be asserted, and actual investigation does have to take place to test whether there is indeed such a tendency. the intuition behind the law of the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is imo perfectly sound, both in the market-share version and the emerging-competition version. the question of whether an aggregate rate of profit can be sustained through technological innovation is imo the only real one here, and given investor behaviour in recent years i would say that signs point to "no"
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Feb 8, 2024 23:50
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V. Illych L. posted:imo what okishio does (i think he himself suggested this?) is demonstrate that TRPF has to be a historical law of capitalism, i.e. it has to be a tendency which is demonstrated through the study of actual economic developments. this is important because it means it cannot simply be asserted, and actual investigation does have to take place to test whether there is indeed such a tendency. billspheonix is desperately looking up the functional perpetual motion machine that hes sure he heard about a few years ago
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Feb 8, 2024 23:52
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I think it’s a microcosm for most Americans having an understanding of Christianity, and Capitalism, and a thousand other things, that is profoundly ideological and essentially taught wrong as a joke, while being told it’s either axiomatically true and so can’t be examined, or non-ideological common sense, which Gramsci discusses, or both. e: As a non-Yank, skimming Huckabee’s book, it’s legitimately pretty insane, but it’s written to preach to the choir, and if this is what the American laity believes Christianity, Capitalism and the US constitution are, and that they’re not obviously in conflict, yeah you can just sort of tell them anything. ee: “Forces on the Left seek to fundamentally change our nation by disregarding the principles upon which it was founded. Members of the media and liberal politicians seek to damage our economic, political, and educational systems for their gain. The Three Cs That Made America Great: Christianity, Capitalism, and the Constitution: exposes the Left's plan to undermine the Christian values on which the nation was built reveals how attacks on Christianity are part of the political agenda of Liberals provides a clear understanding of capitalism and how free markets benefit all people reveals how Liberals undermine capitalism with their socialistic policies shows how the Constitution’s purpose to restrain government and protect individual liberty unmasks the efforts of the liberal Left to subvert the power and relevance of the Constitution exposes the current corruption in government and culture which undermines the principles on which the nation was founded America faces a war of values that will determine its future and likely decide if it will continue as a great nation on the world stage. Mike Huckabee and Steve Feazel sound a needed alarm to Christians and conservatives to answer the call to action and push back against the forces that desire to move America from its heritage and founding principles. It is time for God's people to take an active role in the political arena, not with violence, but with votes and voices that proclaim and defend the values that made our nation the brightest light of freedom the world has ever known.” Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 00:00 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 23:57
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I applaud the very patient posters who created some real interesting posts out of this conversation because jesus loving christ
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Feb 9, 2024 00:07
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Tempora Mutantur posted:I applaud the very patient posters who created some real interesting posts out of this conversation because jesus loving christ we may not like it, but this is what it takes for people to retread some basic concepts
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Feb 9, 2024 00:08
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