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And yet Men (and Hobbits) continually surprise the Eldar and the Valar. The great powers don't really know what to do with them or what happens after them. Men are an enigma, at once the most fallible and corruptible beings of Illuvatar, yet capable of the most incredible feats simply out of habit.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:38
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cheetah7071 posted:It's a bit hard to square with the story of Earendil pleading their case and begging for mercy for the exiles, of course. There's probably a version of the story where the news Earendil brings is as important as his plea, but that's also a bit hard to square with Manwe keeping a close eye on things via his eagles. I don’t think it’s that hard to square. The Valar had every reason to suppose the sons of Feanor did not want them to interfere. They swore an oath by Eru that whoever kept the Silmarils from them they would kill, or die trying, even if it was the Valar themselves. And they keep the oath. Even after Morgoth is captured and Beleriand is destroyed, Maedhros and Maglor just can’t stop themselves from killing their own saviors to get the jewels. If the Valar had responded to the oath of Feanor by going and destroying Beleriand to get them back, they still would have had to kill all the princes of the Noldor—unless they were willing to forswear an oath they made before God. Not a winning scenario. Eärendil’s voyage is important not because the Valar don’t know about what’s going down in Middle-earth, nor because they didn’t feel sorry for the Noldor until he told them to. It’s because he went there himself and cast himself on divine mercy, when everyone else was too proud to even try to repent. “Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need. And his prayer was granted.” This image finds its counterpart in Morgoth, who when the Valar finally tore the roof off Angband and went downstairs to gently caress him up similarly “sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face…and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck.” Gallant goes to the gods to plead their grace for his people; Goofus waits till the gods come to him.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:59
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Yeah when you read the song aragorn sings in fellowship it paints that picture pretty well.
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Feb 8, 2024 23:37
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SHISHKABOB posted:Yeah when you read the song aragorn sings in fellowship it paints that picture pretty well. FWIW I think the most obvious way of assessing how Tolkien thought of the character of Earendil and his importance is that the name is Old English mythic/poetic name for the Morning Star as metaphor of Christ.
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Feb 8, 2024 23:43
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Do you think Tolkien had the elves call themselves Quendi, the Speakers, because his own last name is basically "talking"
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Feb 9, 2024 04:26
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I'm rereading Hobbit and LotR and am looking for goons favorite YouTube channels about Middle Earth lore/etc. I searched the thread but didn't actually see any specific channel recommendations. I'm almost done with The Two Towers and I do wish there was a way to enjoy the hobbit sections more. They seem to drag so much. Faramir is lovely though and definitely gives a nice reprieve from the marshes/etc.
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Feb 9, 2024 05:06
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Men of the West is a good Tolkien channel. I haven't watched much Nerd of the Rings content so I can't speak to them so much but they seem popular. Not exactly a Tolkien channel but you might enjoy the video essayist Like Stories of Old. He's a huge Tolkien fan alongside his other interests and his video on Beowulf and its modern reinterpretations has a lot of great Lord of the Rings insights.
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Feb 9, 2024 05:09
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jiffypop45 posted:I'm rereading Hobbit and LotR and am looking for goons favorite YouTube channels about Middle Earth lore/etc. I searched the thread but didn't actually see any specific channel recommendations. Went on LoTR youtube lore binge recently: https://www.youtube.com/@NerdoftheRings Nice maps and production values https://www.youtube.com/@InDeepGeek Great analysis https://www.youtube.com/@ThePhilosophersGames Very long and in-depth
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Feb 9, 2024 05:43
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jiffypop45 posted:I'm rereading Hobbit and LotR and am looking for goons favorite YouTube channels about Middle Earth lore/etc. I searched the thread but didn't actually see any specific channel recommendations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoJSgq6mqc
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Feb 9, 2024 06:06
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Best Tolkien channels are: The Red Book and GirlNextGondor.
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Feb 9, 2024 08:54
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Vanadium posted:Do you think Tolkien had the elves call themselves Quendi, the Speakers, because his own last name is basically "talking" That's just about the worst pun possible. It has to be true.
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Feb 9, 2024 09:19
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Okay, so whenever an elf and a human fall in love there's apparently a big deal about the elf having to give up their immortality for it to work out (okay I don't even get why that's necessary but ignore that), is there any consideration of instead the human giving up their Gift of Death, sacrificing their mortality to spend an immortal life with their beloved elf until the end of Arda etc?
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Feb 9, 2024 09:47
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Vanadium posted:Okay, so whenever an elf and a human fall in love there's apparently a big deal about the elf having to give up their immortality for it to work out (okay I don't even get why that's necessary but ignore that), is there any consideration of instead the human giving up their Gift of Death, sacrificing their mortality to spend an immortal life with their beloved elf until the end of Arda etc? Elrond is descended from both elves and humans, and picked elf style. So Arwen is a free agent and picks human style. Arwen and Aragorn's children are defaulted to human style and don't get to choose
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Feb 9, 2024 10:03
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Vanadium posted:Okay, so whenever an elf and a human fall in love there's apparently a big deal about the elf having to give up their immortality for it to work out (okay I don't even get why that's necessary but ignore that), is there any consideration of instead the human giving up their Gift of Death, sacrificing their mortality to spend an immortal life with their beloved elf until the end of Arda etc? I'm pretty sure something similar to this is what happened to Tuor and Idril. Their romance gets overlooked a lot because it isn't a tragedy.
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Feb 9, 2024 10:06
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Foxfire_ posted:Only elves with mortal ancestry get to choose (unrelated to any falling in love, they have to decide anyway at some point). Oh I figured that was Luthien's deal too, I haven't actually read her story yet, whoops, I see now it's a bit extra.
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Feb 9, 2024 10:38
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It's also a big subtextual deal that not only are the Valar incapable of taking away the Gift of Death from Men, that's not just some coy way of saying "hey don't feel TOO bad about only living for a century or so, Elves just get real bored", it's dealing with forces even the Valar are unaware of—namely that when Men die they go live with Ilúvatar. And that's eternal. The Elves and Arda will last for thousands of years but it will eventually end, and so will they. They envy Men and their true immortality, or would if they were made capable of it. So the Valar meddling with Men's fates is way beyond their abilities. But they're taking a big gamble that what will happen to Lúthien and Idril and Arwen is that they'll somehow be promoted to whatever it is Men do beyond the world; but that's way beyond the Valar's remit and they can only guess at what Ilúvatar has in mind for them.
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Feb 9, 2024 11:45
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(Actually not Idril I guess, she wasn’t given the choice, Tuor became an Elf. Of course this part of the text is all sketchy)
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Feb 9, 2024 12:47
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I have now read the Luthien chapter of the Silmarillion and it is absolutely wild that they simply walk into Mor Also what a good dog.
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Feb 9, 2024 13:05
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Vanadium posted:I have now read the Luthien chapter of the Silmarillion and it is absolutely wild that they simply walk into Mor He’s a god, slitting his throat probably wouldn’t do much
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Feb 9, 2024 13:07
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You need to stab him in the foot and sicc an eagle on his face to do any real damage.
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Feb 9, 2024 13:12
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Yeah I mean if you can stab him in the foot and get lasting damage, you could probably at least poke the eyes out or something? He's a god but by then he's stuck in that incarnation, right?
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Feb 9, 2024 13:31
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Vanadium posted:I have now read the Luthien chapter of the Silmarillion and it is absolutely wild that they simply walk into Mor I mean, I think it’s super fated that they only get the one silmaril, and Tolkien’s more mythic characters generally seem very aware of their own destiny, so I think they were very certain anything else they tried to do would have resulted in disaster.
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Feb 9, 2024 13:41
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If you like the luthien story it’s worth while going and reading the longer versions in the home books
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Feb 9, 2024 13:42
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Data Graham posted:It's also a big subtextual deal that not only are the Valar incapable of taking away the Gift of Death from Men, that's not just some coy way of saying "hey don't feel TOO bad about only living for a century or so, Elves just get real bored", it's dealing with forces even the Valar are unaware of—namely that when Men die they go live with Ilúvatar. And that's eternal. The Elves and Arda will last for thousands of years but it will eventually end, and so will they. They envy Men and their true immortality, or would if they were made capable of it. Am I right in remembering that it's said or at least implied somewhere that it's not just "kaput" for the Elves and Dwarves when Arda ends? Like, they'll get re-made and get to hang out forever in Arda unmarred, IIRC? 'Cause otherwise that does seem like a pretty raw deal for them
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Feb 9, 2024 14:23
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Barry Foster posted:Am I right in remembering that it's said or at least implied somewhere that it's not just "kaput" for the Elves and Dwarves when Arda ends? Like, they'll get re-made and get to hang out forever in Arda unmarred, IIRC? I thought it was just “we know our fate is tied to Arda, and we don’t know what will happen after Arda ends” just like the elves don’t know what happens to men after they die.
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Feb 9, 2024 14:30
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The wound to morgoths foot causes like a psychological wound to his ego, and because of morgoths whole attitude, it becomes permanent. The Vala are spirits and don't have physical forms. So him limping around is just a manifestation of his bruised self esteem. It is entirely real in that sense, it does actually "wound" him and weaken him.
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Feb 9, 2024 18:18
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SHISHKABOB posted:The wound to morgoths foot causes like a psychological wound to his ego, and because of morgoths whole attitude, it becomes permanent. The Vala are spirits and don't have physical forms. So him limping around is just a manifestation of his bruised self esteem. It is entirely real in that sense, it does actually "wound" him and weaken him.
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Feb 9, 2024 18:29
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Elfkind fought the devil and lost, but the devil forever after walked with a limp.
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Feb 9, 2024 20:01
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Right so I'm not saying "Luthien is an idiot and it's her fault the war didn't end there", it just makes the story even in its short version stand out very clearly as a completely different genre from the previous Noldor warfare play-by-play, along with all the were-wolves and vampires and shapeshifting. My understanding was that the whole elven history kinda exists as a backdrop for Beren and Luthien, so it's not too surprising!euphronius posted:If you like the luthien story it’s worth while going and reading the longer versions in the home books Yeah I'll definitely get there eventually! I've been looking forward to HoME in general but I have a lot of catching up to do first.
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Feb 9, 2024 21:05
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Arc Hammer posted:Elfkind fought the devil and lost, but the devil forever after walked with a limp. BRB gotta go re-listen to When Time Stands Still At The Iron Hill
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Feb 9, 2024 21:07
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You mean you're not listening to it on a loop? It's the best song on the album.
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Feb 9, 2024 21:15
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I'm a nerd for legos and I've got this bootleg Eowyn figure. She came with a blank shield, but I thought that was boring. I was going to paint the white horse on green of Rohan, but then I thought she should have her own sigil.
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Feb 9, 2024 23:49
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lol 
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Feb 9, 2024 23:58
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deoju posted:I'm a nerd for legos and I've got this bootleg Eowyn figure. She came with a blank shield, but I thought that was boring. I was going to paint the white horse on green of Rohan, but then I thought she should have her own sigil. She needs to be holding a spear. Then the symbol on her shield will say "no spear or shield" while she's holding a spear and a shield.
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Feb 10, 2024 00:31
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Luthien is a dark elf, she probably doesn't get why melkor or the jewels are such a big deal She's just helping her boyfriend out of a jam (again)
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Feb 10, 2024 00:42
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deoju posted:I'm a nerd for legos and I've got this bootleg Eowyn figure. She came with a blank shield, but I thought that was boring. I was going to paint the white horse on green of Rohan, but then I thought she should have her own sigil. Excellent
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Feb 10, 2024 01:10
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Blood Boils posted:Luthien is a dark elf, she probably doesn't get why melkor or the jewels are such a big deal Pretty sure Luthien at some point asked her mom the deity why we all live in a giant kingdom-sized field of enchanted wood
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Feb 10, 2024 02:33
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A child should know better than to ask what her mom's girdle is for.
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Feb 10, 2024 03:09
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Arc Hammer posted:You mean you're not listening to it on a loop? It's the best song on the album. Sometimes I gotta change it up for such as Prince or that Fear Factory track from Mortal Kombat
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Feb 10, 2024 03:19
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Reading The Silmarillion at the moment and just reached the Beren and Lúthien chapter. Should I skip it and read the full book of that story instead or what do people recommend? I was gonna read that book after Sil anyway and then Children of Hurin and Fall of Gondolin but not sure which would be better.
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Feb 10, 2024 15:57
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