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Taear posted:It doesn't do that It most certainly DOES do that. Watch the episode again. Taear posted:It doesn't do that, it's EXTREMELY clear it was Data lying on the floor (Lore gave data the tick) I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the very end of the episode. Picard asks "Data" if he's all right, and Data says "Yes sir. I'm fine." with a clear attempt that the contraction be very obvious. Then his face does the tick, which Picard tells him to get rid of. They closed the episode with the intentional suggestion that Data and Lore were still mixed up.
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Feb 10, 2024 14:38
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FuturePastNow posted:Are you telling me London won't win the Series in two years? Next year: Blue Jays build new stadium in London, Ontario to be closer to Detroit/Cleveland and rename themselves the Kings, trade for Shohei Ohtani who Canadians inexplicably call "Buck"; MLB collapses at end of decade due to invention of Parises Squares.
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Feb 10, 2024 15:59
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They are not implying it's still Lore, they're doing the thing from the DS9 episode with O'Brien and the coffee. The thing that the protagonist would 'never' do is, in fact, something that they do do sometimes, isn't it funny that the day was only saved because our heroes' closest friends don't know them as well as they think!
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Feb 10, 2024 16:02
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Accipiter posted:It most certainly DOES do that. Watch the episode again. Wesley watches every second of what happens to Data and Lore and the part of him saying "I'm fine" is exactly what I meant (and what all commentators talking about the episode mean) when they're saying "He uses a contraction". It's not meant to be Lore because that wouldn't make sense, it's legit a really stupid point of the episode. Watch it back now, there's absolutely no way they could have swapped, no way it's ambiguous. Especially since Lore cured his own tick! See the memory alpha bit quote:At the end of the episode, Data uses a contraction in his reply to Captain Picard asking Data if he is alright. Instead of saying "I am fine," Data replies, "I'm fine." This is even more noteworthy than "contraction slip-ups" in other episodes, since the use of contractions was the main method the crew used in this episode to determine whether they were talking to Data or Lore.
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Feb 10, 2024 17:05
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Don't forget that Data can't use contractions, but is perfectly able to use them when he puts on a cowboy accent.
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Feb 10, 2024 17:08
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Eighties ZomCom posted:Don't forget that Data can't use contractions, but is perfectly able to use them when he puts on a cowboy accent. And that he uses them all the time in previous episodes (well not all the time but pretty commonly)
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Feb 10, 2024 17:09
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He can't use contractions but he can quote someone else who used them so he simply read every book in the ship's library and pulled "I'm fine" out of one of them
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Feb 10, 2024 17:12
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Also rewatching the end of the episode the bit where Beverley runs out of the door with her arm on fire is SO poo poo and it makes me laugh It's so obviously not her and it's really awkward
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Feb 10, 2024 17:14
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Taear posted:Also rewatching the end of the episode the bit where Beverley runs out of the door with her arm on fire is SO poo poo and it makes me laugh Yeah that's really funny, the way it's cut makes it look like she's not even a bit surprised and is running immediately. "yup, should've expected that one." My favorite example of the crew being criminally negligent around Data is in Descent part II, when they see Data come into the room to say "I disabled Lore" and nobody eveb suggests making sure it's really Data.
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Feb 10, 2024 18:34
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Well, I mean: it's a wonder that Geordi is willing to work around Data after that. All it takes is for a gadget using a horseshittium field to disable his ethics chip for Data to do some really sociopathic stuff. Data can also have a bit flip inside in positronic brain and use his abilities to completely lock down the Enterprise and take it on a joyride (Brothers). He's a security risk, and I don't necessarily feel like they address that particularly well (if at all) in TNG and the movies.
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Feb 10, 2024 18:37
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I always just assumed they meant Data can't use contractions properly. Inconsistent usage, awkward and stilted manner, etc.
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Feb 10, 2024 18:38
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Well, I mean: it's a wonder that Geordi is willing to work around Data after that. All it takes is for a gadget using a horseshittium field to disable his ethics chip for Data to do some really sociopathic stuff. Data can also have a bit flip inside in positronic brain and use his abilities to completely lock down the Enterprise and take it on a joyride (Brothers). He's a security risk. I mean Geordi was brainwashed to be an assassin lol. It would be a bit hypocritical of him to hold that against Data.
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Feb 10, 2024 18:40
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Boxturret posted:I mean Geordi was brainwashed to be an assassin lol. It would be a bit hypocritical of him to hold that against Data. True. I'm thinking of how the Vulcan Mind Meld was used in TOS, and they actually did touch upon the ways that it could be abused a few times (notably, the rape-y Valeris interrogation scene from VI). Data never really had that reckoning much; even in Measure of a Man.
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Feb 10, 2024 18:41
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Well, I mean: it's a wonder that Geordi is willing to work around Data after that. All it takes is for a gadget using a horseshittium field to disable his ethics chip for Data to do some really sociopathic stuff. Data can also have a bit flip inside in positronic brain and use his abilities to completely lock down the Enterprise and take it on a joyride (Brothers). He's a security risk, and I don't necessarily feel like they address that particularly well (if at all) in TNG and the movies. Calm down, Pulaski
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Feb 10, 2024 18:43
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bennyfactor posted:Next year: Blue Jays build new stadium in London, Ontario to be closer to Detroit/Cleveland and rename themselves the Kings, trade for Shohei Ohtani who Canadians inexplicably call "Buck"; MLB collapses at end of decade due to invention of Parises Squares. Parises Squares is just Pickleball 2, calling it
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Feb 10, 2024 18:44
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:True. There's also that Voyager episode about the planet of telepaths and the black market trade in negative emotions where Tuvok shows a guy real violence through a mind-meld.
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Feb 10, 2024 18:51
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Well, I mean: it's a wonder that Geordi is willing to work around Data after that. All it takes is for a gadget using a horseshittium field to disable his ethics chip for Data to do some really sociopathic stuff. I remember it was a letdown in equinox when the evil crew disabled the Doctor's ethical subroutines and he immediately started helping them be evil: I was hoping he'd be 'oh, okay' and put a scalpel through the brain of the nearest Equinox crewmember because the Voyager crew were still his friends.
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Feb 10, 2024 19:15
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Disabling ethical subroutines is the AI equivalent of putting on a Helm of Opposite Alignment, and everyone knows that once your alignment is inverted, your first priority becomes turning against your friends because  .
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Feb 10, 2024 19:39
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Lal is also a part of the new Data+ gestalt, and it was a point that she could use contractions. They probably could have insisted Data integrate the 3 laws into his programming but then he wouldn't be able to solo the entire crew of a Klingon battle cruiser barehanded.
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Feb 10, 2024 20:15
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MikeJF posted:I remember it was a letdown in equinox when the evil crew disabled the Doctor's ethical subroutines and he immediately started helping them be evil: I was hoping he'd be 'oh, okay' and put a scalpel through the brain of the nearest Equinox crewmember because the Voyager crew were still his friends. Not if the Doctor has never forgiven the Voyager crew after they treated him like poo poo for so long, and has only been held back by the ethical subroutines?
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Feb 10, 2024 20:18
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MikeJF posted:I remember it was a letdown in equinox when the evil crew disabled the Doctor's ethical subroutines and he immediately started helping them be evil: I was hoping he'd be 'oh, okay' and put a scalpel through the brain of the nearest Equinox crewmember because the Voyager crew were still his friends. Did they disable the Voyager EMH subroutines? I just remember them doing it to their own EMH.
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Feb 10, 2024 20:44
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Lemniscate Blue posted:I've seen this too, but as a hindsight thing. Like, if they'd all known sooner that they wouldn't be able to come to an agreement that would have been the perfect episode to be Farrell's last. But everyone was proceeding with the assumption that they'd work it out. And then they didn't, but it was too late. Fortunately this information is readily available: quote:After reading the script for this episode, Terry Farrell requested that Dax be killed now if she was going to be killed at all. At the time of production, she had already decided to leave the show following the end of season 6, as contract talks had failed to bring about a new contract for season 7, and she felt that having Worf complete the mission and leave Dax to die would create a very interesting character arc for him in the final season. According to Farrell, "I knew I wasn't coming back for the seventh season, so it was really written well, and it was the controversy of whether Worf should come back and save my life and not complete the mission, or complete the mission. But he decides to save his wife's life, and I remember thinking, 'Ah, this would be the perfect one to just end it'. I had asked not to be killed, but if you need to kill me because that's what you need to do, that would have been the perfect episode to do it because it would have been so much more for Worf's character to play in the long run, because he would have let his wife die, but completed the mission. Oh my God, what an awful thing to live with." (Crew Dossier: Jadzia Dax, DS9 Season 2 DVD special features) https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Change_of_Heart_(episode)
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Feb 10, 2024 20:48
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Soul Dentist posted:I always just assumed they meant Data can't use contractions properly. Inconsistent usage, awkward and stilted manner, etc.
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Feb 10, 2024 20:55
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Jimbone Tallshanks posted:Did they disable the Voyager EMH subroutines? I just remember them doing it to their own EMH. They swapped EMHs secretly at the end of part 1, and then corrupted our Doctor to do their evil bidding while their old EMH was being evil on Voyager.
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Feb 10, 2024 20:58
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Jimbone Tallshanks posted:Did they disable the Voyager EMH subroutines? I just remember them doing it to their own EMH. If I recall correctly, it was both. Voyager’s EMH had his subroutines disabled after being kidnapped by the Equinox, while the Equinox’s EMH, who had swapped with the Doctor, had already had his disabled. e:f,b
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Feb 10, 2024 21:05
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Nessus posted:Data uses a Nomad accent like Zefram Cochrane, in admiration of Cochrane's upstanding life goals I think that American shows often ignore accents and it's a shame to me that they don't bother with say having every Betazed speak like Troi. But it's strange that Data is super american but doesn't say "dah-da" instead of "day-ta" I assume he was told to and everything and I'm glad he was, just interesting they took the pronunciation that way
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Feb 10, 2024 21:14
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Taear posted:I think that American shows often ignore accents and it's a shame to me that they don't bother with say having every Betazed speak like Troi. I wouldn't be surprised if they were planning that but then Gene decided to make Majel her mother and they gave up on the idea.
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Feb 10, 2024 21:17
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blastron posted:If I recall correctly, it was both. Voyager’s EMH had his subroutines disabled after being kidnapped by the Equinox, while the Equinox’s EMH, who had swapped with the Doctor, had already had his disabled. So shouldn't he still have some degree of free will even if his ethical subroutines are off?
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Feb 10, 2024 21:20
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Taear posted:I think that American shows often ignore accents and it's a shame to me that they don't bother with say having every Betazed speak like Troi. Well one is his name and the other is not.
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Feb 10, 2024 21:38
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I think you could make a plausible argument that the Doctor’s personality is constructed from complicated interactions between multiple sets of subroutines, and removing any parts of it would have wild and unpredictable effects. Perhaps concepts like “friendship” and “loyalty” have a significant ethical component to them—maybe something like “society is healthiest when people help those they care about”—and simply fall apart when that component is removed.
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Feb 10, 2024 21:42
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Taear posted:it's a shame to me that they don't bother with say having every Betazed speak like Troi. I'm fine with not doing that, I hate it in sci fi when they take one individual trait or example and make that A Thing for the entire species. You see an extra wearing some weird pants in the back of a scene, and then the next time a writer wants to use them they're the Weird Pants Species with an entire culture built around Weird Pants. The Star Wars EU was/is probably the most notorious about it, but that's how you get things like the Standard Changeling Goo Bucket in Picard.
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Feb 10, 2024 21:47
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:They have a habit of doing that. It also happened in the S2 episode Schizoid Man. "Hmm... Data is suddenly exhibiting jealousy over the blonde lab partner and being smarmy with the captain? Eh, I'm sure it's nothing". That's not at all how they responded. They were concerned about the shift in behavior, wondered if it was related to him spending a bunch of time with someone who knew his creator and then died, and then they ran extensive diagnostics after he insulted Picard and Riker on the bridge.
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Feb 10, 2024 22:29
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Sir Lemming posted:Fortunately this information is readily available: Man can you imagine how insane it would be to kill off a main character in a random midseason episode. People would’ve been stunned, it would be considered one of the great episodes
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Feb 10, 2024 22:40
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:That's not at all how they responded. They were concerned about the shift in behavior, wondered if it was related to him spending a bunch of time with someone who knew his creator and then died, and then they ran extensive diagnostics after he insulted Picard and Riker on the bridge. But mocking the episode is so much easier if you don't actually remember what happens...
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Feb 10, 2024 22:50
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Taear posted:But it's strange that Data is super american but doesn't say "dah-da" instead of "day-ta" American here. Even before TNG, it was unusual (though not unheard of) to hear anyone pronounce the word "dah-ta". "Day-ta" was far more common. (I was just a kid but I took classes in BASIC programming, so "data" was a word I ran into a lot.)
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Feb 10, 2024 22:52
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The way the title is presented, “Datalore”, always indicated it was a turn of phrase or pun or something. I have no idea why they titled it that way
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Feb 10, 2024 23:00
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I'm trying to imagine someone saying the phrase "dah-da base" and it just sounds so wrong.
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Feb 10, 2024 23:00
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zoux posted:The way the title is presented, “Datalore”, always indicated it was a turn of phrase or pun or something. I have no idea why they titled it that way The episode covers the lore (i.e. the backstory) of Data. Compare to the word "folklore". As for the names themselves, lore and data are both words for a set of information, but with rather different connotations.
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Feb 10, 2024 23:07
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zoux posted:The way the title is presented, “Datalore”, always indicated it was a turn of phrase or pun or something. I have no idea why they titled it that way IDK, it's expanding the backstory ("lore") for Data or something? Or it's an extremely long-burn setup for when Disney acquires Paramount and we get the new series The Datalorian.
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Feb 10, 2024 23:09
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Powered Descent posted:The episode covers the lore (i.e. the backstory) of Data. Compare to the word "folklore". So it is a pun
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Feb 10, 2024 23:32
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