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I think that if one of the things that we're wanting that we can't always get is "at least the lesser evil isn't contributing to a genocide," it might be time to admit that there are no actual depths to what we're supposed to be willing to compromise. It certainly does not make me think that I will actually be protecting any of the vulnerable groups by siding with people willing to facilitate genocide to maintain power.
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Feb 11, 2024 09:13
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The Donald the Dove talk reappears only for Trump to: That headline is proof that the media hasn't learned anything about how to handle Trump statements. They hide his stupidity by correcting his statements to something understandable because the actual statement is so stupid as to be unbelievable. He still thinks NATO is a special club that countries pay dues to the US to be members of. He really thinks people believes his STDH stories about world leaders coming to him personally about paying NATO bills. Here's a link twitter video of it because I had to see it myself. https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1756412015793279117 E. Revenant fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 09:15
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Kith posted:it would be nice if biden did anything to earn my vote outside of "not being trump" This is where I am at on it. Year after year the Democrats/Biden are failing me and the people I care about. Then every time one of their failures to act on something important comes back to bite them/us: I'm told to fight back by voting Democrat when they are blatantly the ones who failed to do anything when they could. The messages from people like Pelosi about it read as infuriatingly condescending and I know I am far from the only person who feels that way. Now they're full on trying to convince me genocide is acceptable actually or maybe it's not and they feel reeeeeally bad about it but just can't stop funding it and it makes me feel physically ill.
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Feb 11, 2024 09:21
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cdc posted:Europe is basically close to being hosed. Nobody has any military left because we were stupid, and Putin is doing his thing. Well we do (Finland) but it's not enough with us alone.
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Feb 11, 2024 09:21
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Kith posted:it would be nice if biden did anything to earn my vote outside of "not being trump" Not Trump has been the purposeful branding of the party since 2016, and they're not going to change it any time soon. Assuming Trump refuses to go away and runs in 2028, it's what they'll do again.
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Feb 11, 2024 09:22
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Kith posted:it would be nice if biden did anything to earn my vote outside of "not being trump" He did the IRA which was insanely great for american industry and will be great for a long time yet, unless trump ruins it. So there's that. I mean it does suck for us in europe, my nearby city lost a billion dollar investment because IRA money made them go to the US.
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Feb 11, 2024 09:22
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theCalamity posted:I wouldn't call someone who supports Israel as they are running what could be considered a genocidal campaign in Gaza to be somewhat reasonable. Every US president and major-party presidential candidate in the past fifty years has supported a genocidal campaign in Palestine. If anyone had given a poo poo about that in 2022, 2020, 2018, 2016, 2014, 2012, 2010, 2008, 2006, 2004, 2002, 2000, or 1998 (the failure of Oslo is a fair place to start drawing the line to today's events), both America's relationship with Israel and Israel's relationship with Palestine would be very different today. Honestly, the most frustrating thing for me, as someone who didn't just suddenly start caring about Gaza five months ago, is how many people seem absolutely convinced that getting a ceasefire would put an end to the genocide. Bullshit! The genocide was ongoing long before Israel started assaulting Gaza, and it'll keep going long after Israel puts their assault on pause...which, by the way, will almost certainly happen before November regardless of what Biden does. It'll be difficult for Israel to sustain a mobilization of this size for an entire year, as between conscription and displacements, a substantial chunk of their workforce has been rendered unavailable. Before you bring up Arab-Americans again, I don't really care what they do. People can make their own decisions about what they care about. If the events in Gaza have someone pissed off enough that they're not going to vote against a guy who's probably going to put out shoot-on-sight orders at the southern border and make it illegal to be openly trans, well, that just goes to show who they care about and who they don't. I hope they'll be able to live with themselves. They don't need to justify those decisions in this thread...unless they post those decisions in this thread, in which case they should expect to be argued with! I'm tired of seeing the "I won't vote for Biden", "You should vote for Biden", "Are you telling those poor Arab-Americans in Michigan to vote for Biden, you cruel monster????" sequence endlessly repeat itself. If an Arab-American who lost family in Gaza posts in this thread that they don't want to vote for Biden, we can debate whether they're morally obligated to do so then. Until then, I'm getting a real bad taste in my mouth seeing them being constantly thrown around in this thread like debate props. Kith posted:it would be nice if biden did anything to earn my vote outside of "not being trump" He actually did a bunch of historically unprecedented progressive poo poo, the kind of stuff people would have thought was a pipe dream back in 2008. But none of that stuff goes viral on Twitter, so no one knows about it.
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Feb 11, 2024 09:26
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Kith posted:it would be nice if biden did anything to earn my vote outside of "not being trump" Yes, but here we are. Do you want Trump? If not, you should vote for Biden even if he sucks. But he sucks a lot less than Trump.
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Feb 11, 2024 09:29
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The worst part of this is the fact that the USA as an imperial state continues to run no matter who is at the head of it. When we look at statements like "Trump would be no better on Y" it really really should prompt looking at the world and thinking about how kind of hosed up that is.
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Feb 11, 2024 09:30
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Main Paineframe posted:He actually did a bunch of historically unprecedented progressive poo poo, the kind of stuff people would have thought was a pipe dream back in 2008. But none of that stuff goes viral on Twitter, so no one knows about it. your "well actually" makes me go zzz snore sleeping etc because i know that: Kith posted:it doesn't change the fact that he's been a competent leader who has accomplished a shocking amount of good things and that trend will likely continue. this does not change the fact that he has also done or otherwise enabled horrible things that would make me vote for literally anyone else if it was not a choice between him and trump cdc posted:Yes, but here we are. Do you want Trump? i'm agreeing with you, bud
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Feb 11, 2024 09:31
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Kith posted:it would be nice if biden did anything to earn my vote outside of "not being trump" i've got good news how do you feel about *rolls dice* groundbreaking antitrust action and an absolute shitload of action on student debt Kith posted:your "well actually" makes me go zzz snore sleeping etc because i know that: that's nice, now you're falling back to "well he actually did major things to earn my vote but i'm still mad" your first post was basically factually wrong and you're trying to sneer about being called out on it Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 09:32
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I will say that it isn't inspiring to promote Biden as the defender of American democracy in the same breath as saying that the only alternative available in American democracy will destroy American democracy If anything, it just seems to reinforce feelings of hopelessness and defeat in the people you're supposed to be mobilizing.
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Feb 11, 2024 09:35
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Google Jeb Bush posted:i've got good news what the gently caress is wrong with you lmao Kith posted:this does not change the fact that he has also done or otherwise enabled horrible things that would make me vote for literally anyone else if it was not a choice between him and trump how do you read that and get "your first post was actually wrong" i can like+appreciate the good things biden has done i can also hate+be disgusted by the bad things biden has done i can, additionally, and most relevant to this conversation, state that biden's bad things disgust me to the point where if he was not the only thing standing between me and another trump presidency, i would not vote for him, but he is, so i will the good things biden did are not what earned him my vote. they're nice and cool but to me genocide support is pretty disqualifying and would be the end of my support if not for the current circumstances e: cool you edited in a little bit more!!! attaboy get them sick dunks, surely this will not come back to bite you when you realize that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of this discussion Google Jeb Bush posted:and you're trying to sneer about being called out on it yeah nah i'm just clarifying my position because y'all assumed that a passing comment was my entire stance Kith fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 09:38
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Main Paineframe posted:Before you bring up Arab-Americans again, I don't really care what they do. People can make their own decisions about what they care about. If the events in Gaza have someone pissed off enough that they're not going to vote against a guy who's probably going to put out shoot-on-sight orders at the southern border and make it illegal to be openly trans, well, that just goes to show who they care about and who they don't. I hope they'll be able to live with themselves. They don't need to justify those decisions in this thread...unless they post those decisions in this thread, in which case they should expect to be argued with! I'm tired of seeing the "I won't vote for Biden", "You should vote for Biden", "Are you telling those poor Arab-Americans in Michigan to vote for Biden, you cruel monster????" sequence endlessly repeat itself. If an Arab-American who lost family in Gaza posts in this thread that they don't want to vote for Biden, we can debate whether they're morally obligated to do so then. Until then, I'm getting a real bad taste in my mouth seeing them being constantly thrown around in this thread like debate props. Of course, this applies to you, too: By voting for Biden, you are showing you you care about and who you don't - and they are a price you are willing to pay. Which is fine, but it's silly how people get offended at Muslims when that same standard is being used against us! Notice the tricky: "Only Arabs or Muslims who directly lost relatives can have a beef about this," which is insane if you've ever lived in a Muslim community. Back when I lived in Alabama and taught at an Islamic school, we had Palestinian refugees. When I moved to the middle east, I've had Palestinian and Yemeni refugee students. Our Palestinian national studies teacher lost almost twenty members of her family in a week. But, of course, it's weird to care about these lives unless you are so directly affected that your family is the one that died. The people in Michigan are just bizarre and have strange cares, why can't they treat foreigners like numbers in an excel sheet like the rest of us do? Mormon Star Wars fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 09:51
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Main Paineframe posted:Before you bring up Arab-Americans again, I don't really care Could of just posted this and saved yourself a lot of time. Edit: This was incredibly glib. It's just so incredibly frustrating to be scolded at every election to vote for the lesser of two evils. "How many more of these stinking, double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote FOR something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils" It would be cool if the democrats could take their own 'most important election ever' talk seriously and stop running off putting ghouls (Clinton, Biden) who seem to just resent minorities but feel entitled to their votes. JoylessJester fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 10:10
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JoylessJester posted:It's just so incredibly frustrating to be scolded at every election to vote for the lesser of two evils. Its always going to be that way and has been that way. It won't end with Trump or Biden or Clinton or Bush or etc etc etc and didn't begin with them either. There are no great men/women waiting in the wings to solve all our problems if they were only just elected president. They either don't exist or don't have money or interest or charisma to win the seat if they do. Even if they did and won the Presidency it wouldn't matter because Congress is dysfunctional and has been for most of the last 20yr at least. Probably since at least Gingrich if you really want to be technical about it so mid-ish 90's? Right now the best you can do is to vote for the non-fascist who is a bit left of Obama instead of staying at home or voting for the actual no holds barred fascist. That is as good as it gets this time around.
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Feb 11, 2024 10:47
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A month ago I had a post written up on the majority sharia view on when it's permissible, encouraged, disliked, etc to vote for a candidate in a democratic election. It's an interesting topic in part how people behave with regards to their government is a well-trod and written about section of sharia jurisprudence*, but mostly because most posters in the thread would be bopping around in their chair in their excitement to agree with it. In general, outside of specifically Salafi-influenced places like IslamQA (who argue that "voting means accepting that Man rules and not God," a view which does not make any sense considering the amount of majority Muslim countries who have voting seasons. I had to report someone once for campaigning for their dad to get a mayoral job at school!), most modern ulema agree that the most important thing when it comes to voting is Akhaf ad-Dararayn, or "reducing the harm." (Note that this isn't a ruling specifically for elections - It's a general principle of Sharia, and where we get rulings like "If you have to eat pork instead of dying, it's better to eat the pork.") That's right - the Sharia guide for voting is that when you vote you aren't endorsing the actions of a candidate (The Islamic Council of Europe says: "This is not necessarily the case for the following reason: choosing an option means that you endorse it only if there are better options offered. But if the other choice is worse, then you are actually endorsing the difference between this option and the one that is less harmful.") https://iceurope.org/fatwa-is-voting-really-haram/, and so it is a moral obligation to make the choice that will result in the least harm. This is most important for harm about our specific community, but there are several fatwas that if two candidates are equally bad for Muslims, you do need to take into account the harm they will bring to other, non-Muslim communities. I doubt that I could get away with just linking a Sci-Hub paper here, but "The Lesser of Two Evils”: Islamic Law and the Emergence of a Broad Agreement on Muslim Participation in Western Political Systems" is a good paper to read on this that starts from the strictest perspective, and most Muslims living in the west are living to an even looser standard.** "Oh, well this is great, this is what we are all arguing! Alhamdulillah, Muslim Brothers, welcome back to the Democratic Party," However, "choosing the lesser of two evils" had it's limits, and the Democratic party is pushing up against these limits more than even previous candidates who were hostile to Muslims: 1) Even if choosing the lesser of two evils, you aren't allowed to pretend the choice is good. In the pork example, your sin eating haram food is automatically absolved because it was the lesser evil in the situation. However, if you tell people "Hey, actually pork isn't haram, it's fine to eat pork" - that isn't choosing the lesser of two evils, that is actually a separate sin, and it's a worse sin - because even if you have to do something bad out of necessity, you can't call the haram halal. However, that's exactly the situations Muslims in the U.S. are in right now. The democrats can't have party discipline in their own government bodies, but normal, everyday democrats seek to enforce it on Muslims - it's not enough to say that you would hold your nose and vote for him, you have to praise him. He has to be the most progressive president ever. He's the most empathetic man in the government who truly does care about Palestinians. He's definitely as sharp as a tack. He's the only one that can save our democracy. Voting isn't enough, if you don't admit these things, if you don't praise him while he funds a genocide of your own comrades, then you are helping Trump. So first off, this isn't an issue of holding your nose and voting - the Democrats are demanding party loyalty, and that includes declaring his haram behaviors halal, because actually saying that are haram might help Trump. 2) The first consideration of harm reduction is how this targets the community. For Democratic officials and every day reply people, the common refrain is: "But if Trump is elected, he'll do a genocide and do a travel ban." Here is where the problem becomes obvious: Democrats aren't asking Muslims to vote for the lesser evil towards their community and others, but rather, normalizing selling out communities by accepting vastly greater harm to another community in exchange to something bad but mostly inconvenient to us. This isn't how the Islamic principle of choosing the lesser evil works. If someone says, oh, I won't get hassled at the airport, and all I have to do is accept that the price of this is someone else gets genocided?" That's not a sharia principle, that's monstrous. And not just in shariah - imagine it being applied to any other group. Yes, LGBT comrades, you can adopt kids in main - but only if you accept the that we have to stop all asylum cases and expand the border camps - this is something most people would not accept, even if it benefits them, because they have a conception of human dignity. When the Democrats say that we should be more scared of a travel ban for us than a genocide for others - they are asking us to ignore the human dignity of the dead. That is not just "reducing the harm," that's demanding that we kill the principle of solidarity and change our entire ethical compass. 3) "Biden is doing this Genocide, but Trump would do this and be rude about it" just illustrates the fact that people don't want the harm to stop: Voting for Biden or Trump is just indicating that we don't care about if the harm is lessened, because the argument from democrats is the harm to us is inevitable anyways, and all we can hope for is that on our way out, we can maybe alleviate the suffering of others - that we must pay the price for everyone elses freedom, but openly, we will never have the same consideration, and our suffering is the coin that everyone else will pay with - is not "Choosing the lesser harm." This is just openly admitting that we are being sacrificed, and will be sacrificed, and there is no will or intention for the Democrats to do otherwise. That isn't choosing a lesser evil - it's submitting to it. Finally, I would like to relay a story that I think applies to this discussion. During the Minha (an Inquisition during the Abbasid caliphate, where the Caliph agreed to let the (what people would not consider) progressive Mu'tazila madhab declare themselves the arbiters of Islam, they arrested the sheikh Ahmed ibn Hanbal (the founder of the conservative Hanbali school followed in Saudi Arabia). During his time in jail, his warden came up to talk to him and said: I've got a question about a Hadith that said that those who aide the oppressors will share in their punishment? Does that apply to me, since I am a warden? Ahmed ibn Hanbal replied, "No." "Those who aide the oppressor are those who cook his meals, and tailor his clothes, and sell goods to you. As to you, you are one of the oppressors yourself." Ahmed ibn Hanbal's time in jail rallied the other madhabs - even more "liberal" ones that disagreed with him - until they threatened to riot and had the Mu'tazila removed from power. Ahmed ibn Hanbal's persecution cemented his place as the founder of one of the four pre-eminent sunni madhabs. The only remains of the Mu'tazila, who insisted that their standard was the only correct one, are self-identified neo-Mu'tazila who ape the controversial parts of their madhab but are scared to touch the soul of it. *One that has bitten many modern sheikhs in the rear end - "Quietest" pseudo-traditional sufi sheikhs like Hamza Yusuf have gotten in trouble for saying that Muslims need to defer to their government even if the government is harming Muslims. There was even a "Dawah Guy" that got assaulted recently for his comments towards Palestine, telling people that only the governments of Arab countries have a right to complain, and if they let the Palestinians die, it is because their aqidah was false. Specifically, they cry at graves too much. **If you are interested in how Sharia works in general and the guiding principles it's founded on, I highly recommend Khaled Abou el Fadl's "Reasoning with God," or if you'd like to jump directly into a primary source, "The Reliance of the Traveller," which sets out the standards of the Shafi'i madhab school of jurisprudence. Ignore the part at the beginning about "not reading this unless you are actually becoming a student of knowledge, because it will just cause more confusion" if you are not worried about the state of your soul!
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Feb 11, 2024 10:48
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JoylessJester posted:Could of just posted this and saved yourself a lot of time. I mean... at least your lesser of two evils isn't UK Labour.
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Feb 11, 2024 11:05
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JoylessJester posted:Could of just posted this and saved yourself a lot of time. You got Campaign Obama, so you've used up your lifetime supply of presidential campaigns based on something other than "At least I'm not that guy". Voting the lesser of two evils is kind of a core game component in our stupid system with only 2 actual choices. However, if you're actually trying to persuade someone to vote the way you want them to insisting that they not only eat that poo poo sandwich, but give thanks and ask for another is ridiculous. If someone feels that they can't vote for Biden, you're sure as poo poo not convincing them by screaming "SO YOU WANT TRUMP. ORANGE FASCISM IS WHAT GETS YOU OFF, HUH?!?". No one has to vote for either one or the other party, they can vote 3rd Party or skip that line on the ballot. And no, not voting for Biden is not the same as voting for Trump. No vote is owed to anyone, nor is it required to be given. Just because our system heavily favors strategic voting doesn't mean that people have to, or even should, focus solely on picking a team and going all out for them. It's on Joe Biden to go out and earn your vote, and if he can't then he doesn't get it. Which is a major failing of recent Democrats who have come to view votes of certain individuals and groups as ones they are entitled to and can take for granted.
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Feb 11, 2024 11:28
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His Divine Shadow posted:I mean... at least your lesser of two evils isn't UK Labour. Right? He's a complete bastard over Gaza, but domestically I would crawl over broken glass to have Joe instead of Keith. Imagine Starmer on a picket line or something.
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Feb 11, 2024 11:41
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Ms Adequate posted:Right? He's a complete bastard over Gaza, but domestically I would crawl over broken glass to have Joe instead of Keith. Imagine Starmer on a picket line or something. I can only imagine him in a riot uniform spraying teargas
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Feb 11, 2024 12:30
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Important thread reminder that if you vote against Joe Biden, or more importantly as some of you tend to do, nakedly campaign to reelect Trump by being unfairly anti-Biden and push "don't vote/vote third party", you are PRO-genocide and there is no way to deny it. You want genocide in Ukraine, you want MORE genocide in Gaza, and you want Climate Genocide in Africa and Polynesia. That is the position you are advocating for.
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Feb 11, 2024 13:38
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Kith posted:it would be nice if biden did anything to earn my vote outside of "not being trump" he weirdly enough actually managed to accomplish this for my family in a way i am forced to legitimately recognize, but i have nearly no qualms about this not being a universally applicable, recognized or even visible thing to most americans
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Feb 11, 2024 13:40
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Senate Cum Dump posted:Number of drone strikes is hardly the only or most important metric for judging a president's foreign policy. I would point instead towards Biden's saber-rattling toward China and Russia--quite a bit more than saber rattling you could argue, but ratcheting up tensions in general. Also, y'know, the genocide in Gaza. There's no guarantee that Trump would be all that much better but given his interest in making "deals" I think he might be more open to sending Jared Kushner to work with the Saudis and pressure Netanyahu into a ceasefire. *He bombed Iraq to assassinate an Iranian and only by the grace of Iranian leaders did that not go fully hot. *Trump at the very least expanded drone warfare into Somalia and oh yah, restricted reporting on drone strikes. *"Alleged civilian deaths in Iraq and Syria skyrocketed under Trump's four years in office to more than 13,000 *Trump had an on the ground NAVY Seals raid Yemen. *Let's not forget the raid in Niger that got swept under the rug in 2017 that we all collectively decided was not worth investigating. Mooseontheloose fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 13:58
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Pleasant Friend posted:Important thread reminder that if you vote against Joe Biden, or more importantly as some of you tend to do, nakedly campaign to reelect Trump by being unfairly anti-Biden and push "don't vote/vote third party", you are PRO-genocide and there is no way to deny it. If you vote for Joe Biden, that is also a pro-genocide vote. Neither of those two candidates are anti-genocide. Like, vote for him if you want but let’s be real here.
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Feb 11, 2024 14:11
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Kith posted:it would be nice if biden did anything to earn my vote outside of "not being trump" Ignoring how willfully ignorant this is of recent history, how about just Biden's one existing and potential future scotus nomination(s). is that enough for you
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Feb 11, 2024 14:26
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Pleasant Friend posted:Important thread reminder that if you vote against Joe Biden, or more importantly as some of you tend to do, nakedly campaign to reelect Trump by being unfairly anti-Biden and push "don't vote/vote third party", you are PRO-genocide and there is no way to deny it. This is an incorrect, sneering, and just awful post. You're not going to convince anyone to do anything in this manner.
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Feb 11, 2024 14:40
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Raiad posted:I think that if one of the things that we're wanting that we can't always get is "at least the lesser evil isn't contributing to a genocide," it might be time to admit that there are no actual depths to what we're supposed to be willing to compromise. This is always what its about in the end, isnt it? Its not about trying to do good, or make things better - its about what is being "compromised" - your pride, your ego, your self image - and who and how badly you are willing to hurt innocent people on order to keep those intact. Unless there is something else the word could mean, here? I dont think there is, and think you just slipped up. Well, yall are right that pointing out your motivations is bad rhetoric. Its unlikely to get you on my side or to do what I think you should... but I dont think anything actually can, and "convincing people to vote the way we want" isnt actually the point of this thread - which you know, of course, because god knows none of you have any interest in doing that. FistEnergy posted:This is an incorrect, sneering, and just awful post. You're not going to convince anyone to do anything in this manner. It is 100% correct, and it is worth pointing out the truth even when it wont convince the people who would prefer to believe bullshit. This thread is not a political campaign populated by your perceived enemies, it is individuals trying to have a discussion about reality in regards to US politics, and there's nothing wrong with his claim even if you find it personally unconvincing. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 14:44
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Literally every time someone posts the bait of "Voting Joe makes you culpable" we get pages and pages of this poo poo, we've already covered this ground and mods have already requested electoralism chat go to another thread, I would like to read about current events in the current events thread, not take a 15 person poll of SA posters about voting intention.
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Feb 11, 2024 14:50
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Two questions for those posting ITT who refuses to vote for “Genocide Joe”:
I’m curious if that’s actually the sole reason why someone here wouldn’t vote for him Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 14:52
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FistEnergy posted:This is an incorrect, sneering, and just awful post. You're not going to convince anyone to do anything in this manner. Do you think that the election of Donald Trump would result in less harm done to Palestine and/or Ukraine? Yes or no?
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Feb 11, 2024 14:53
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BougieBitch posted:Literally every time someone posts the bait of "Voting Joe makes you culpable" we get pages and pages of this poo poo, we've already covered this ground and mods have already requested electoralism chat go to another thread, I would like to read about current events in the current events thread, not take a 15 person poll of SA posters about voting intention. What’s stopping you from posting about the U.S. current event that currently interests you most?
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Feb 11, 2024 14:59
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Pleasant Friend posted:Important thread reminder that if you vote against Joe Biden, or more importantly as some of you tend to do, nakedly campaign to reelect Trump by being unfairly anti-Biden and push "don't vote/vote third party", you are PRO-genocide and there is no way to deny it. Yeah.. especially after some good posts about the human and ethical calculations of voting in a broken system that can only deliver things on a scale of "objectively bad" to "historical yet wholly insufficient", this post ain't it. It's darkly funny that we have to love Democracy... we have to vote for Biden to preserve Democracy! Our dearest institution, our most speciallest precious ideal! Yet not voting for Democrats is a betrayal of your civic duty and tantamount to supporting Trump. There is only one democracy, voting straight ticket Dem every most important election. Well... if that's how our Democracy works I'm... not sure it's worth the cost of all the genocide. This is the same old debate, but posts like this are exactly why people keep pushing back against your duty to vote for Biden (yes even people who may hold their nose and do it anyway). I mean, climate genocide? If captain planet was elected president I don't think he could significantly mitigate our terrible role in the destruction of the climate and biosphere. IRA or not, you don't get to vote against destroying the planet just like you don't get to vote against genocide. Little wonder people may see us clinging to preserving our norms and find it a bit self serving.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:04
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Riptor posted:Ignoring how willfully ignorant this is of recent history, how about just Biden's one existing and potential future scotus nomination(s). is that enough for you So the 6-3 court will become a 5-4 court? Inspiring. None of the conservative justices are even particularly old or obviously dying.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:07
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The Mattybee posted:Do you think that the election of Donald Trump would result in less harm done to Palestine and/or Ukraine? Trump is generally anti- foreign aid. Israel would not be able to do what it is doing without continued American support.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:09
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GlyphGryph posted:This is always what its about in the end, isnt it? Its not about trying to do good, or make things better - its about what is being "compromised" - your pride, your ego, your self image - and who and how badly you are willing to hurt innocent people on order to keep those intact. Unless there is something else the word could mean, here? I dont think there is, and think you just slipped up. The genocide in Gaza is not hurting innocent people?
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Feb 11, 2024 15:11
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RealityWarCriminal posted:Trump is generally anti- foreign aid. Israel would not be able to do what it is doing without continued American support. There is essentially no chance Trump could convince his own party to cut Israel aid to nothing. And even if he somehow did, they currently spend about 4.5% of their GDP on military spending. I think they would do just fine with affording weapons without the US’s aid for a few years. If they hadn’t already annihilated Gaza by that point Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 15:14
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RealityWarCriminal posted:Trump is generally anti- foreign aid. Israel would not be able to do what it is doing without continued American support. Easily the most naive thing ever written on these forums. There is a reason Johnson put "aid" to Israel to a vote but not Ukraine.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:16
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RealityWarCriminal posted:Trump is generally anti- foreign aid. Israel would not be able to do what it is doing without continued American support. You think the person who has outright said he would bar refugees from Gaza is less supportive of Israel? Again: yes or no?
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Feb 11, 2024 15:17
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 14:12 |
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RealityWarCriminal posted:Trump is generally anti- foreign aid. Israel would not be able to do what it is doing without continued American support. In 2018 he approved the largest ever military aid package for Israel (up to that point) as part of that year's NDAA. He also never significantly cut aid to Israel during his presidency. Also while US aid consists of up to 15% of Israel's defense budget, and that's not a small amount, it still leaves 85% for Israel to commit war crimes with. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 15:17
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