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Mormon Star Wars posted:The genocide in Gaza is not hurting innocent people? It is. Are you trying to make a point?
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Feb 11, 2024 15:18
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:What’s stopping you from posting about the U.S. current event that currently interests you most? The fact that I don't currently pay to get past paywalls from the major US sources and therefore can't effectively source quotes. Frankly, that's completely irrelevant. It's fine for the thread to have fewer posts on slow news days, we don't need to have a perpetual-motion machine of stressful off-topic content just because I'm not doing my part to post insightful current events, and implying that I have any power to redirect the most evergreen derail in the thread is frankly absurd
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Feb 11, 2024 15:22
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Kalit posted:There is essentially no chance Trump could convince his own party to cut Israel aid to nothing. There is quite a lot that the U.S. could do, since Israel is currently highly dependent on American ammunition and aircraft: Israel Today posted:Israel begins shift to domestic ammunition production Biden circumvented Congress twice in one month to rush ammunition to Israel. Israel's genocide of Gazans relies heavily on the material support that Biden is hellbent on continuing to provide to the genocidal regime.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:26
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It's our two party system that ensures the two parties will circle around the needs of capital and the market like turds circling the bowl. It's our voters, programmed by media and culture, that are politically incoherent and vote against their own interests and the objective lesser evil. Do we get to pretend we're going to solve this electorally? The absolute uproar over somebody's binding moral imperative to vote for Dems cuz the Republicans will always be worse is absolutely frustrating, especially if you think this has already effectively failed. What is our plan if Trump DOES win? Start prepping for the next election? It's like we work at the evil factory, diligently making and exporting evil. But if we're not careful our kindly, business minded evil boss is going to be replaced by a boss that is a cartoonishly evil buffoon. And we can't afford to lose our jobs and our 401ks are tied into the company being effective. We have a 50 year plan to diversify into markets that aren't wholly evil.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:27
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B B posted:There is quite a lot that the U.S. could do, since Israel is currently highly dependent on American ammunition and aircraft: The hypothetical was that Trump would give less aid to Israel, not that he would stop selling weapons to Israel. He absolutely wouldn’t stop selling weapons to Israel, as we all saw how eager he was to brag about selling them when he was in office. For example: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-signs-110-billion-arms-deal-saudi-arabia/story?id=47531180 Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 15:29
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Kalit posted:The hypothetical was that Trump would give less aid to Israel, not that he would stop selling weapons to Israel. Biden should stop selling weapons to Israel while they're carrying out a genocide. Until he stops, he supports and is actively participating in a genocide.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:32
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KingaSlipek posted:Easily the most naive thing ever written on these forums. There is a reason Johnson put "aid" to Israel to a vote but not Ukraine. Johnson is not Trump. The Mattybee posted:You think the person who has outright said he would bar refugees from Gaza is less supportive of Israel? This is about foreign aid.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:32
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GlyphGryph posted:It is. Are you trying to make a point? Yes. My point is, that you are making the same trade-off. In your post, you said: GlyphGryph posted:This is always what its about in the end, isnt it? Its not about trying to do good, or make things better - its about what is being "compromised" - your pride, your ego, your self image - and who and how badly you are willing to hurt innocent people on order to keep those intact. Unless there is something else the word could mean, here? I dont think there is, and think you just slipped up. You are also making a determination of what innocent people you are willing to hurt in order to keep your values intact. It's just that the people you are willing to hurt with your vote are the people of Gaza. This is pure projection.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:35
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The Mattybee posted:Do you think that the election of Donald Trump would result in less harm done to Palestine and/or Ukraine? I have no idea and neither do you. That's in the future and no one can know for sure. I know for sure that Biden has been worse than I thought he would be, and has more blood on his hands than I thought possible in 2020. Both Biden and Trump have done and will do unacceptable levels of harm. The *better* question is: can I morally and spiritually stomach voting for Biden or Trump at this moment, based on what they have already done or are actively doing? The answer is NO, so I will not vote for either one. Saying 'But Trump' has not worked on me, will never work on me, and is clearly not working for tens of millions of other people because Trump has a clear and consistent lead in national polling. No matter how much poll handwaving certain posters do in here, Trump is clearly favored to win in November at this point. Your question is irrelevant and also inappropriate to this thread: this is a Current Events thread, and the Current Events right now are primarily Joe Biden doing morally awful things, refusing to use the powers of his office and the levers of American power to stop a genocide, and demonstrating significant mental declines. If the Democratic Party doesn't want those issues front and center, they have full control between now and November.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:36
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FistEnergy posted:I have no idea and neither do you. That's in the future and no one can know for sure. I know for sure that Biden has been worse than I thought he would be, and has more blood on his hands than I thought possible in 2020. Both Biden and Trump have done and will do unacceptable levels of harm. Have you ever voted, because I have some bad news about Every US President Ever
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Feb 11, 2024 15:40
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Kalit posted:Two questions for those posting ITT who refuses to vote for “Genocide Joe”: Personally, I wouldn't. I have been raising flags about his flagrant disregard for the lives of Muslims ever since 2016, when he put a pro-Hindutva, pro-Modi guy in charge of Muslim outreach. As a reminder, Modi played a large role in the Guajrat massacres. So him disregarding the humanity of Palestinians is no surprise to me, and just goes to show that his evil towards us is not "lesser" and was never going to be "lesser." However, I know personally know several scholars in Dearborn who would have voted for him if he had put any meaning red lines on Israel. Not even achieving a cease fire, but doing anything to actually slow Israel down materially. It's far too late for that, though, and a lot of them consider the death toll so large that trying to change would be meaningless - but at this point, people also don't buy he's willing to change, especially after the meeting a few days ago ended up just being "We see you, we hear you, but we aren't going to do anything."
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Feb 11, 2024 15:44
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FistEnergy posted:I have no idea and neither do you. That's in the future and no one can know for sure. I know for sure that Biden has been worse than I thought he would be, and has more blood on his hands than I thought possible in 2020. Both Biden and Trump have done and will do unacceptable levels of harm. Why are you pretending like the genocide only started recently? Also, considering you have a Joe tag under your avatar from 2020, it seems like you already refused to vote for him previously. No need to pretend like his current actions has any impact on you not voting for him this year Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 15:44
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BRJurgis posted:Yeah.. especially after some good posts about the human and ethical calculations of voting in a broken system that can only deliver things on a scale of "objectively bad" to "historical yet wholly insufficient", this post ain't it. loving dismissing the genocidal effects of the future impact of climate change with some nonsense about Captain Planet? The impact of which will result in the deaths of millions of people, mostly the poorest people in the world and people of color, yeah this ain't it. There was no good posts about ethical calculations in this thread, just the same tired arguments of electoralism, where people pretend that just because not every vote matters, that its morally okay to actively campaign for Trump. If you were to be most charitable, there is a class of people who want Biden to win, but think they can be "morally pure" by not voting/tangibly campaigning for Biden to lose and that's pure bullshit. You are not absolved from any "lesser evil" just because you made it slightly harder for other people to defeat the greater evil. If you're not being charitable, there are some rear end in a top hat accelerationists and actual pro-Trump guys too cowardly to just own that they're pro-Trump that keep making GBS threads up this thread. And they are 100% unironically pro genocide.
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Feb 11, 2024 15:46
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RealityWarCriminal posted:So the 6-3 court will become a 5-4 court? Inspiring. None of the conservative justices are even particularly old or obviously dying. Yes, progress is better than nothing? Thomas is 75 years old and alito is 73. Things happen
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Feb 11, 2024 15:47
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From my perspective, there's mainly 3 types of posters who won't ever agree and talk past each other all day itt: - lesser evil voting strategists who will hold their nose and pull for Biden - people on the fence who don't want to vote for either candidate, and perhaps won't vote (or will 3rd party) - posters who split their time between this thread and the succdem thread and cspam just wanting to stir poo poo up and get their laughs in reposting from this thread to that one mockingly
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Feb 11, 2024 15:50
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Yes. My point is, that you are making the same trade-off. How? Where? By what method is my vote hurting people in gaza? How is my vote part of the cause of the undesirable effect? And if it were, how would it absolve you of the same or limit the impact of my criticism? The relevant question isnt whether people get hurt, its whether more people get hurt, surely? Mormon Star Wars posted:You are also making a determination of what innocent people you are willing to hurt in order to keep your values intact. What on earth is this sentence supposed to mean? I am genuinely puzzled as to what you are trying to communicate, and expect whatever it is that lead you to write this in the belief I would be able to derive some meaning from it might be part of the disconnect, because I dont even have a guess. Even if I agreed with your factual assertion, which is itself incomplete and I dont, and shared your values assumption (I assure you I do not, but Im trying to operate within a frame where conversation is possible so lets pretend I do) it feels like this is the bit thats supposed to make those things into some sort of point and it comes across as actual nonsense to me. edit: okay, I think I have narrowed down the troublesome bit. "Values". What do you mean by that? I am not familiar with a definition where "intact" is a modifier that can be applied to them. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 15:51
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FistEnergy posted:I have no idea and neither do you. That's in the future and no one can know for sure. I know for sure that Biden has been worse than I thought he would be, and has more blood on his hands than I thought possible in 2020. Both Biden and Trump have done and will do unacceptable levels of harm. That's why I asked you what you believe, and "the future is unknowable" is a cowardly answer. I assume that there's a reason you don't want to give an answer? FistEnergy posted:The *better* question is: can I morally and spiritually stomach voting for Biden or Trump at this moment, based on what they have already done or are actively doing? The answer is NO, so I will not vote for either one. Saying 'But Trump' has not worked on me, will never work on me, and is clearly not working for tens of millions of other people because Trump has a clear and consistent lead in national polling. No matter how much poll handwaving certain posters do in here, Trump is clearly favored to win in November at this point. I'm not trying to convince you; you've already made it very clear that you're working backwards from your conclusion, and you're also assuming that everyone who thinks that Biden is a better option than Trump likes the situation of "we have two options". FistEnergy posted:Your question is irrelevant and also inappropriate to this thread: this is a Current Events thread, and the Current Events right now are primarily Joe Biden doing morally awful things, refusing to use the powers of his office and the levers of American power to stop a genocide, and demonstrating significant mental declines. If the Democratic Party doesn't want those issues front and center, they have full control between now and November. You literally posted this: FistEnergy posted:This is an incorrect, sneering, and just awful post. You're not going to convince anyone to do anything in this manner. You don't get to attack people with nothing other than 'ur post sux lol' and then throw a fit when someone asks you to defend your viewpoint with an incredibly simple question, which you then proceed to avoid answering in favor of "uhh well well the future is unknowable!!!!" The Mattybee fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 16:03
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FistEnergy posted:I have no idea and neither do you. Yeah the future is unknowable but its not hard to look at his past actions and acknowledge what he'd probably do is worse. Trump is a gently caress up who pretends to be a strong man but then gets led around by real deal strongmen like Putin or the House of Saud. You flat out can't be honest and believe that good or better things will come from a person like that.
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Feb 11, 2024 16:06
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FistEnergy posted:I have no idea and neither do you. That's in the future and no one can know for sure Why are you giving Trump way more leeway than Biden on this? We got 4 years of both of them. This might have flown in 2016 but Trump now has a record and it's not a good one
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Feb 11, 2024 16:10
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Mormon Star Wars posted:it's not enough to say that you would hold your nose and vote for him, you have to praise him. He has to be the most progressive president ever. He's the most empathetic man in the government who truly does care about Palestinians. He's definitely as sharp as a tack. He's the only one that can save our democracy. I have not seen this argument. People are talking about voting. A vote that is made holding your nose, and a vote done enthusiastically count just the same.
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Feb 11, 2024 16:15
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I have not seen this argument. People are talking about voting. A vote that is made holding your nose, and a vote done enthusiastically count just the same. Were you in such a hurry to respond that you didn't scroll down like three posts under mine to see the one where the guy immediately proved my point by saying that saying bad things about Biden was getting Trump elected? Are we pretending "By buying into bad framing about Biden, you are helping Trump get elected" has not been just as much as the repeating electoralism Discourse as every other repetition?
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Feb 11, 2024 16:19
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Were you in such a hurry to respond that you didn't scroll down like three posts under mine to see the one where the guy immediately proved my point by saying that saying bad things about Biden was getting Trump elected? Are we pretending "By buying into bad framing about Biden, you are helping Trump get elected" has not been just as much as the repeating electoralism Discourse as every other repetition? Quote the post that said holding your noise and voting for Biden isn't enough, he must also be praised.
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Feb 11, 2024 16:21
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Quote the post that said holding your noise and voting for Biden isn't enough, he must also be praised. Pleasant Friend posted:Important thread reminder that if you vote against Joe Biden, or more importantly as some of you tend to do, nakedly campaign to reelect Trump by being unfairly anti-Biden and push "don't vote/vote third party", you are PRO-genocide and there is no way to deny it. Being "unfair to Biden" (criticising him) makes you pro genocide and pro Trump. It's not enough to vote - you have to withhold criticism also. This is not an acceptable Islamic position.
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Feb 11, 2024 16:24
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Being "unfair to Biden" (criticising him) makes you pro genocide and pro Trump. It's not enough to vote - you have to withhold criticism also. This is not an acceptable Islamic position. That isn't what that post says at all. Being "unfair to Biden" isn't criticising him. If it's factual, how is it unfair? You're complaining about an argument that isn't being made. We can solve this pretty easily. Pleasant Friend: do you think that it isn't enough to vote for Biden and you also have to praise him as the most progressive president ever and the most empathetic man in the government who truly does care about Palestinians?
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Feb 11, 2024 16:30
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That post doesn't say what you think it does. It clearly says vote against Biden in the first line, even!
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Feb 11, 2024 16:30
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Being "unfair to Biden" (criticising him) makes you pro genocide and pro Trump. It's not enough to vote - you have to withhold criticism also. This is not an acceptable Islamic position. There wasn't word 1 about requiring Biden to be praised there like DeadlyMuffin asked proof of for in that quote from Pleasant Friend. Pleasant Friend explicitly stated he was talking about voting against Biden or pushing to don't vote/vote 3rd party in that quote. You need to learn to slow down and read things more carefully rather knee jerk rage posting over a misread.
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Feb 11, 2024 16:34
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Since this thread is on the topic of electoralism again(!), I just want to say three things: 1) I am voting for Joe Biden 2) Biden will win Michigan 3) Biden will win the presidency
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Feb 11, 2024 16:34
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Man of Peace - Donald Trumpquote:Former President Donald J. Trump said on Saturday that, while president, he told the leaders of NATO countries that he would “encourage” Russia “to do whatever the hell they want” to countries that had not paid the money they owed to the military alliance. quote:But he has also called on the United States to “make an agreement” to end the war in Ukraine by ceding Ukrainian territory to Russia, comments that were seen by some as an appeal to American conservatives to block further involvement in the war.
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Feb 11, 2024 16:44
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Pleasant Friend posted:loving dismissing the genocidal effects of the future impact of climate change with some nonsense about Captain Planet? The impact of which will result in the deaths of millions of people, mostly the poorest people in the world and people of color, yeah this ain't it. Being better than Trump on climate isn't nearly enough. The historic IRA is a joke in the face of what we're doing and what's coming. Are you seriously trying to leverage climate justice in an argument somehow supporting US electoralism? Again, even if our leaders wanted to take serious (absolutely necessary) action on that topic, it would never endure under our systems. The market would not bear it, capital would not bear it, the voters would not bear it. Acting like you're being the reasonable adult, making hard decisions and working with what you've got... while it's plain as day we cannot overcome this threat within American electoralism as we know it. Less than half measures stretched over decades that can be rolled back by something as common as Republicans (one of our two parties) winning an election. We can't be morally pure sitting back and being thankful for our vote. If morally pure even exists it is far our of reach for us.
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Feb 11, 2024 16:45
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BRJurgis posted:Being better than Trump on climate isn't nearly enough. The historic IRA is a joke in the face of what we're doing and what's coming. Are you seriously trying to leverage climate justice in an argument somehow supporting US electoralism? Again, even if our leaders wanted to take serious (absolutely necessary) action on that topic, it would never endure under our systems. The market would not bear it, capital would not bear it, the voters would not bear it. You're welcome to talk about the things you think we should do that will be more effective than voting - it could be an interesting discussion. But, you know, voting doesn't have a significant opportunity cost so I'm going to keep doing it and not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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Feb 11, 2024 16:50
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GlyphGryph posted:How? Where? By what method is my vote hurting people in gaza? How is my vote part of the cause of the undesirable effect? And if it were, how would it absolve you of the same or limit the impact of my criticism? The relevant question isnt whether people get hurt, its whether more people get hurt, surely? Again, going back to your post: GlyphGryph posted:This is always what its about in the end, isnt it? Its not about trying to do good, or make things better - its about what is being "compromised" - your pride, your ego, your self image - and who and how badly you are willing to hurt innocent people on order to keep those intact. Unless there is something else the word could mean, here? I dont think there is, and think you just slipped up. Keeping your morality and values intact means you aren't compromising them - in the post, you accuse people including the genocide in the moral weight of their vote as doing it to keep their self-image intact by avoiding compromise. Being fair, when someone is trying to "keep their self-image intact" by avoiding the appearance of endorsing genocide, the self-image they are trying to protect / avoid compromising is a moral one - "I am a good person." However, since you can't know their hearts )and therefore whether their desire to be a good person is a cynical ploy or genuine), let's take it on face-value and assume that everyone mad about the genocide isn't just doing it for cynical ("they just don't want to vote for him because it will compromise their pride.") reasons. Let's assume that they are making a legitimate moral calculus, here. They are weighing up what they think the results will be of their vote, and they are including the furtherence of genocide in their calculus, and they are giving it a very large weight, such that they think that it outweighs the other potential harms that might come. In your post, you portray this calculus as "Being willing to hurt innocent people" in order to keep those things intact. However, everyone discussing who to vote for is doing the exact same type of moral calculus. Even in your post, you say that their vote or non-vote will badly hurt innocent people - in other words, you are weighing what you think the outcome will be and deciding that if they vote third party or don't vote to follow their self-image, it will result in morally bad outcome. So drawing a moral line about your vote isn't something the perfidious anti-Biden are doing and everyone else is strictly pragmatic about - Clearly, voting for what you think is the outcome that you predict will "badly hurt innocent people" is equally a moral decision, so the issue isn't that some people are avoiding being morally compromised: Everyone is avoiding being morally compromised! Everyone is judging this according to their own moral calculus! Not just the bad guys, but also everyone who is arguing that voting for Joe Biden is morally obligatory! The difference is where we are drawing the line, and that difference appears to be this: That some people include voting for a person committing a genocide as worthy as being included in the calculus, and others don't. Presumably, if I'm offering a good faith view, there is a reasonable reason for this: If you think the genocide is inevitable and no vote can affect it either way, and therefore it deserves as much moral weight in your choice of vote as any other inevitable thing, like weather, or dying one day, or the seasonal flu. In that case, "The genocide is going to happen no matter what, so giving it any amount of weight in our moral calculus is a waste of time. We should only consider things we can change with the vote itself, and both votes will end up in genocide" is a reasonable position to hold, but: Again, the people including the genocide in their decision are not just prideful people who are too hung up on morality. They are engaging in the same kind of moral reasoning as you. The difference here is not pride or self-image or weak moral character or whatever: It's how much weight you give to the genocide, or if you include it in your decision at all. As much as you have argued that they are leading to "badly hurting innocents" by weighing the genocide more than local problems (whatever they may be - you don't specify which in the post) - they can equally point out that you are also weighing some innocents more than others, just in the opposite direction.
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Feb 11, 2024 16:52
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You also can't be morally pure by smugly sitting back and refusing to push the button and ensure things are slightly less bad. But here's the trick, your ability to do politics doesn't begin and end at the election. Go talk to people about electoral reforms from a state level office up direction, organize to get alternative ballot types for state and national level positions. Directly lobby your government officials to pressure the administration to stop supporting Israel. Take direct action against those producing arms if you feel very strongly and have a good strategy. There are much better ways to regain your feelings of being morally centered than to pretend that by not voting you're doing anything but giving half an effective vote to the delta in policy between the better and worse of the two candidates. Mormon Star Wars posted:Again, the people including the genocide in their decision are not just prideful people who are too hung up on morality. They are engaging in the same kind of moral reasoning as you. The difference here is not pride or self-image or weak moral character or whatever: It's how much weight you give to the genocide, or if you include it in your decision at all. As much as you have argued that they are leading to "badly hurting innocents" by weighing the genocide more than local problems (whatever they may be - you don't specify which in the post) - they can equally point out that you are also weighing some innocents more than others, just in the opposite direction. You're supporting it by staying home, too. There's no walking away and washing your hands of it. Inaction is still an action and no matter what you do that doesn't include more than voting, you're lodging one vote for the genocide in Palestine and half a vote for every hypothetical thing Trump does that's worse. I'm not saying this to sway anyone and this isn't how I would discuss it in other contexts, to get ahead of anyone bringing that up again.
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Feb 11, 2024 16:59
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I feel like one core thing on why these arguments go in circles is that both sides are viewing the opposite viewpoint as an existential threat
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Feb 11, 2024 17:02
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BougieBitch posted:Literally every time someone posts the bait of "Voting Joe makes you culpable" we get pages and pages of this poo poo, we've already covered this ground and mods have already requested electoralism chat go to another thread, I would like to read about current events in the current events thread, not take a 15 person poll of SA posters about voting intention. Yeah you basically have to nuke all the electoralism chat because it has for years degenerated to a nojoe safari, and it's not going to be any different anytime soon, so it gets to be an ex-conversation
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Feb 11, 2024 17:03
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Mormon Star Wars posted:
This is what I’m scared of, the sacrificing of certain communities for the “greater good”. Right now, people are weighing the dignity and lives of one community against the potential degradation of others and coming down on selling out one community. But will it stop there? Right now it’s Palestinians and asylum seekers at the border. But in the future it could be the LGBT community or another oppressed community. Will we have to keep sacrificing specific groups for the greater good?
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Feb 11, 2024 17:04
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Kagrenak posted:You also can't be morally pure by smugly sitting back and refusing to push the button and ensure things are slightly less bad. Again, everyone making any sort of calculus could be described as trying to be "morally pure." When you decide that you are doing harm reduction by voting in a certain way, that is a moral decision, and you are setting a moral line. The difference isn't that some people desire moral purity and others are pragmatic - Everyone is making a moral choice, it's just that some people are including the genocide in their decisionmaking, and others aren't. But pretending it's all about "moral purity" is a silly read of the situation. At best, I'm willing to bet that I might even be the only person in this conversation that actually believes in sin leaving a stain on your soul. How does moral purity work for an atheist or anyone else who doesn't believe in the reality of sin? Mormon Star Wars fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 17:05
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:I feel like one core thing on why these arguments go in circles is that both sides are viewing the opposite viewpoint as an existential threat I'm not! I don't hold non-Muslims to Muslim moral standards with regards to voting. Vote how you like! edit: Or become Muslim. > 
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Feb 11, 2024 17:05
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DeadlyMuffin posted:That isn't what that post says at all. Being "unfair to Biden" isn't criticising him. If it's factual, how is it unfair? Thank you, you don't have to praise Biden at all, there is lots you can criticize, but criticizing Biden is very different from borderline lying about him (or his opponent's positions), or actively campaigning against him and pretending that by helping to elect Trump (such as by telling people not to vote/vote third party) you haven't already crossed the threshold into a morally repugnant position. This is a two party system, you can't absolve yourself by opting out, and you especially don't get to "not own" endorsing all of Trumps genocidal polices and positions if day after day you work to make sure he's elected.
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Feb 11, 2024 17:16
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I'm kind of surprised some Republican adjacent operatives haven't gotten the idea of going into leftist online spaces and just done a bunch of posts going "if you vote for Biden you are pro-Genocide" and similar kind of posting just to stir poo poo up before the election.
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Feb 11, 2024 17:20
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Madkal posted:I'm kind of surprised some Republican adjacent operatives haven't gotten the idea of going into leftist online spaces and just done a bunch of posts going "if you vote for Biden you are pro-Genocide" and similar kind of posting just to stir poo poo up before the election. I assume they are, they’ve certainly done it in the past: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jun/11/facebook-ads-turning-point-usa-rally-forge
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Feb 11, 2024 17:26
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