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FistEnergy posted:Nope, for the record I think Trump will be just as awful on Gaza. But Trump being president again will free Democrats up to rediscover their consciences again and speak out or act against American complicity. That's why posters keep saying Trump is the harm reduction candidate when it comes to Gaza; it's not a flippant statement. Right now there is no genocide opposition party. With Trump back, that number is free to increase to one. Just like they did after losing to Reagan, Bush, and Trump. We had eight years of Obama and drat near got Bernie Sanders. We had four years of Trump and got Biden. When a party loses, their voter base becomes more reluctant to progress or move left. They run to safe, reliable, centrist, and status quo. The analysis that I bolded has been proven wrong multiple times and has only led to more suffering here and abroad.
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Feb 11, 2024 21:47
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Majorian posted:Trump could be worse than Biden on Gaza, but if you're going to make the affirmative claim like this, it would be great if you'd explain why you believe this and what makes you so certain of it. Remember, we're talking about him being worse than Biden, not just "not better than Biden." Because he literally made a bunch of tweets after Oct 7th about how if HE was President he'd have America actively help genocide the Gazans with troops. He wanted a much worse genocide. Majorian posted:I'm asking what specifically you think he will do to make the situation in Gaza worse, not whether or not his rhetoric is pro-Israel, pro-Zionism, anti-Palestinian, etc. I'm not trolling; I'd like an answer to my question. Considering he wanted to Just Start Killing Gazans with American troops, I think that's a bit of a clue. KillHour posted:Assuming it hasn't changed since you posted this and you're talking about the political cartoon depicting the IDF as Nazis - it's good actually and should be everyone's avatar. I think the text where it says "The souls of all Jews are in hell and it'd be best if the Jews died quickly" is where it takes a perfectly fine politoon and goes straight to hardcore antisemitism.
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Feb 11, 2024 21:48
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The Mattybee posted:Weird, a few hours ago you were convinced that the answer wasn't possible to know! Did you suddenly change your mind? It's s not possible to know for sure because things change and Trump is unstable and unpredictable. But I can give my opinion. They're two different things. Don't be a pedant.
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Feb 11, 2024 21:56
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Kchama posted:Because he literally made a bunch of tweets after Oct 7th about how if HE was President he'd have America actively help genocide the Gazans with troops. He wanted a much worse genocide. He hasn't made any tweets in three years (are you referring to posts on another social media outlet?), and I'm not finding the quotes you're describing in this thread (or on Google). I am seeing a far-right minister in the Israeli government saying that Trump would support Israel more, as well as Trump saying he'd reject Gazan refugees (a very bad thing, I think we can all agree), but that's kind of it. I have no doubt that he's at least as rabidly anti-Palestinian as Biden is, possibly more. The question is, what would he do? I don't see much of a reason to believe he'd send in American troops when Israel is doing a good enough job of murdering Palestinian civilians on its own.
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Feb 11, 2024 21:58
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Kchama posted:I think the text where it says "The souls of all Jews are in hell and it'd be best if the Jews died quickly" is where it takes a perfectly fine politoon and goes straight to hardcore antisemitism. "I want bad things to happen to the people related to the people who are hurting me" is not a positive sentiment, but I have a hard time clutching pearls about it at this point. It's approaching "death to YT" levels in my book. I say this as someone who is probably (at least partly) a Jew* *I'll never know for sure because my family fled Krakow under fairly suspicious circumstances, changed their name to sound more German, and my great grandfather took the truth to his grave.
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Feb 11, 2024 21:58
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Majorian posted:I'm asking what specifically you think he will do to make the situation in Gaza worse, not whether or not his rhetoric is pro-Israel, pro-Zionism, anti-Palestinian, etc. I'm not trolling; I'd like an answer to my question. Let's see who the people who are actively genociding the West Bank want in the Oval Office:  Hmm. Let's see who Itamir "Drive out all the inhabitants of the land" Ben Gvir prefers: https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/the-israeli-firebrand-driving-netanyahu-further-to-the-right-dd9e8113
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Feb 11, 2024 22:01
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Kagrenak posted:Let's see who the people who are actively genociding the West Bank want in the Oval Office: That's not an answer to my question. My question wasn't, "Who do far-rightists in Israel want to win the 2024 election?" It was, "What would Trump do that would be worse than what Biden is doing on this issue?" \/\/\/yeah, that's the most pathetic thing about this whole ordeal IMO. I've never seen a president court a foreign leader who wants him to lose harder than Biden courts Bibi\/\/\/
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Feb 11, 2024 22:03
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Kagrenak posted:Let's see who the people who are actively genociding the West Bank want in the Oval Office: Biden repeatedly kissing the ground Bibi walks on, only to get politically poo poo on in return would be hilarious if it wasn't directly enabling an ongoing genocide.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:04
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Majorian posted:That's not an answer to my question. My question wasn't, "Who do far-rightists in Israel want to win the 2024 election?" It was, "What would Trump do that would be worse than Biden on this issue?" He's avoided commenting too much directly but what he has said is he would bar any Gazan refugees, which alone is pretty bad but I don't think has a big effect because no one can get out anyway. https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4331958-trump-mixed-messages-on-how-hed-handle-israel-hamas-war/ He has said that he would deport foreign students who protest in favor of palestine: quote:Trump has pledged at recent campaign events that his administration would “revoke the student visas of radical anti-American and antisemitic foreigners at our colleges and universities, and we will send them straight back home.” We can look at his past behavior wrt aid for Palestine: quote:The former president had a thorny relationship with Palestinian leaders while he was in office. In 2018, the Trump administration said it would not spend roughly $200 million in funding set aside for aid to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. And the Trump administration’s Middle East peace plan released in 2018 infuriated Palestinian leaders, as it aligned largely with what Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had laid out. We can look at what his surrogates say about potential policy, as well: quote:Gen. Keith Kellogg, who served on the National Security Council during the Trump administration, said in an interview that he would have advised for a “much harder approach” than the Biden administration is taking in terms of aid into Gaza.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:10
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FistEnergy posted:It's s not possible to know for sure because things change and Trump is unstable and unpredictable. But I can give my opinion. They're two different things. Don't be a pedant. Which is what you were asked last time, and you gave a different, complete non-answer, and then insisted that that question was inappropriate for the thread! FistEnergy posted:But Trump being president again will free Democrats up to rediscover their consciences again and speak out or act against American complicity. That's why posters keep saying Trump is the harm reduction candidate when it comes to Gaza; it's not a flippant statement. Right now there is no genocide opposition party. With Trump back, that number is free to increase to one. So let me get this straight. You think that the Democratic Party - a party that has also, unfortunately, been pro-Israel for at least as long as I have been alive - is suddenly going to reverse course on Israel and decide that they actually don't want to support Israel anymore, just because Donald Trump is now president? And you believe this will do... what, exactly, in the timeline where Donald Trump is president? Even if we assume that the Democratic Party suddenly changes its mind because of Donald Trump, for whatever reason. What will this accomplish for the people of Gaza, if the government is still pro-genocide?
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Feb 11, 2024 22:14
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FistEnergy posted:Nope, for the record I think Trump will be just as awful on Gaza. But Trump being president again will free Democrats up to rediscover their consciences again and speak out or act against American complicity. That's why posters keep saying Trump is the harm reduction candidate when it comes to Gaza; it's not a flippant statement. Right now there is no genocide opposition party. With Trump back, that number is free to increase to one. Lol that you think we are even going to get elections again if Trump takes it. Also have you voted in literally any presidential election in the last 40 years? Because all of those clowns have either endorsed/tacitly supported/intentionally turned a blind eye to genocide so if you pulled the lever at all in the past, I don't know why you feel like now specifically is the time to suddenly hardline stance on Gaza.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:14
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Kagrenak posted:He's avoided commenting too much directly but what he has said is he would bar any Gazan refugees, which alone is pretty bad but I don't think has a big effect because no one can get out anyway. That's all pretty vague as it pertains to his handling of the issue, though - and overall pretty similar to Biden's own handling of the situation. Biden has "paused" aid to the UNRWA based on blatantly false claims by the Israeli government. Failboattootoot posted:Lol that you think we are even going to get elections again if Trump takes it. Why do you think we won't, exactly? I'm aware of Project 2025 and think it would be a bad thing, but why are you certain that he would be successful in implementing it, to the point where elections would not be allowed in 2026-8? quote:Also have you voted in literally any presidential election in the last 40 years? Because all of those clowns have either endorsed/tacitly supported/intentionally turned a blind eye to genocide so if you pulled the lever at all in the past, I don't know why you feel like now specifically is the time to suddenly hardline stance on Gaza. The reason why is because the killing of innocent Palestinian civilians by Israeli armed forces with American support has increased dramatically over the past few months. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 22:16
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FistEnergy posted:Nope, for the record I think Trump will be just as awful on Gaza. But Trump being president again will free Democrats up to rediscover their consciences again and speak out or act against American complicity. That's why posters keep saying Trump is the harm reduction candidate when it comes to Gaza; it's not a flippant statement. Right now there is no genocide opposition party. With Trump back, that number is free to increase to one. pushing trump back into office won't help gazans, and it won't push the democratic party to do anything else but decide they have to accede ground to rightward policy in order to survive electorally in future elections, but beyind that, a lot of people in this thread have to willingly ignore that it'll help bring genocide policy domestic for folks like me in order to seriously, mindbreakingly claim trump's the "harm reduction candidate" it's the one belief that's come in here that goes beyond just 'regrettable but understandable' because it's wrong for just all of the worst reasons
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Feb 11, 2024 22:17
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Riptor posted:Ignoring how willfully ignorant this is of recent history, how about just Biden's one existing and potential future scotus nomination(s). is that enough for you i recommend reading the thread before posting e: heck not even the whole thread. just like. the most recent posts Kith fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 22:17
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Majorian posted:That's all pretty vague as it pertains to his handling of the issue, though - and overall pretty similar to Biden's own handling of the situation. Biden has "paused" aid to the UNRWA based on blatantly false claims by the Israeli government. I see you suffer from a literal complete ability to make inferences. It must be really exhausting to never know what anyone is ever going to do, always being surprised by events which keep reoccurring in slightly new ways.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:21
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Majorian posted:I'm asking what specifically you think he will do to make the situation in Gaza worse, not whether or not his rhetoric is pro-Israel, pro-Zionism, anti-Palestinian, etc. I'm not trolling; I'd like an answer to my question. Rather than asking us what we personally think, why not ask Israel's leading anti-Palestinian genocide advocate, Itamar Ben-Gvir, the guy who wants to arm extremist groups in the West Bank and used to have a portrait of a mass murderer hanging in his living room? https://www.timesofisrael.com/attacking-biden-ben-gvir-says-trump-would-have-been-more-supportive-of-israel/ quote:Attacking Biden, Ben Gvir says Trump would have been more supportive of Israel As for what Trump would do differently, Ben-Gvir gives plenty of examples. He thinks Trump would stop criticizing the Israeli government and stop pressuring it to back away from right-wing stances. He thinks Trump would stop giving humanitarian aid to Palestinians. He thinks Trump would put an end to Biden's practice of threatening to withhold weapons to Israel if Israel did certain things. And worst of all, he thinks Trump would be more supportive of his calls to And while Trump has largely avoided getting specific about what he'd do about Gaza on the campaign trail, he has said a few things we can refer to. For example, he promised to bar people who don't support Zionism from entering the US, and promised that any non-citizens attending pro-Palestine protests would have their visas revoked and be deported. He also proclaimed that Israel should be avenged for the crimes of Oct 7th, and stated that "there is no hatred like the Palestinian hatred of Israel and Jewish people".
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Feb 11, 2024 22:21
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The number of times that the claim that "if Trump wins, he will become a dictator" has come up, I have to wonder why the Dems don't simply enact whatever mechanisms would allow him to it to prevent him from taking power. Seems like, if we are in such a precarious state, that would be far preferable to allowing a worse dictator to take power.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:22
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socialsecurity posted:But Trump would make everything Gaza worse so this analogy doesn't make sense. HOW!? Like it's literally at the worst it can possibly be?
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Feb 11, 2024 22:23
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Raiad posted:The number of times that the claim that "if Trump wins, he will become a dictator" has come up, I have to wonder why the Dems don't simply enact whatever mechanisms would allow him to it to prevent him from taking power. Seems like, if we are in such a precarious state, that would be far preferable to allowing a worse dictator to take power. "We need the power of dictatorship to prevent our enemies from seizing power and making an even worse dictatorship" is literally the first page in the dictator playbook. The fact that Democrats aren't arguing that it's objectively a good thing.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:25
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KillHour posted:"We need the power of dictatorship to prevent our enemies from seizing power and making an even worse dictatorship" is literally the first page in the dictator playbook. The fact that Democrats aren't arguing that it's objectively a good thing. This does seem to be the end conclusion of supporting the lesser evil, however. If the choices are surrender democracy to prevent evil, or allow evil under the guise of allowing democracy, the choice seems pretty clear cut.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:27
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MonsieurChoc posted:HOW!? I mean yeah, in part due to stuff that Trump did as president like recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and moving the embassy there. It was incredibly pro-Zionist and more or less made it official US policy that the idea of any kind of path forward wouldn't involve a self-determined Palestinian state, which is why it was roundly rejected by basically the entire rest of the world Like, Biden sucks rear end here and he has been more or less telling Israel to just do whatever they want, but he's also pretended like he cares about the awful poo poo Israel is doing at times. Trump has already given them as many green flags as he could to continue the settlements and kill indiscriminately I get the arguments that you might not think that Trump would be incomparably worse or orders of magnitude worse or whatever, but he'd obviously be *worse*
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Feb 11, 2024 22:30
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Raiad posted:The number of times that the claim that "if Trump wins, he will become a dictator" has come up, I have to wonder why the Dems don't simply enact whatever mechanisms would allow him to it to prevent him from taking power. Seems like, if we are in such a precarious state, that would be far preferable to allowing a worse dictator to take power. Raiad posted:This does seem to be the end conclusion of supporting the lesser evil, however. If the choices are surrender democracy to prevent evil, or allow evil under the guise of allowing democracy, the choice seems pretty clear cut. Please elaborate on exactly what "mechanisms" the Democratic leadership would "enact" to prevent Trump from becoming president if he legitimately wins the election, and explain why you think that would work out well for them and for the rest of us.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:30
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Raiad posted:The number of times that the claim that "if Trump wins, he will become a dictator" has come up, I have to wonder why the Dems don't simply enact whatever mechanisms would allow him to it to prevent him from taking power. Seems like, if we are in such a precarious state, that would be far preferable to allowing a worse dictator to take power. They have no will or power to do so. They have no will to install Biden as dictator because he doesn't have any kind of support for it. You don't have weirdo militias willing to storm the capital in the low thousands for Biden. The supreme court is not on Biden's side. The dems currently in office are pure decorum-brained and not interested in creating an autocratic state. Which is good, actually. Meanwhile the right has already stormed the house once, have control of the supreme court, have enough control of the house and senate where the mechanisms to do anything legally about this actually sit. They have a base willing to die for their stupid president and have been doing so in the 100's of thousands. We know Trump is going to do everything he can to subvert democracy and pretty much the last barrier to that to be tested is which way the military goes. Don't particular want to test that particular line for obvious reasons. Like if Mike Pence had bent the knee on jan 6th, or if that one cop hadn't managed to lead the mob around incorrectly, their shitstorm may have worked and we wouldn't be sitting here being mad at biden about being wrong on an issue that every president and mainstream presidential candidate has been wrong on for decades. Or any other number of electoral systems they tested and stood that time but may not do so again. Failboattootoot fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 22:31
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Eletriarnation posted:Please tell us exactly what "mechanisms" the Democrats would "enact" to prevent Trump from becoming president if he legitimately wins the election, and explain why you think that would work out well for them and for the rest of us. I have not been making the claim that Trump will end elections and American democracy as we know it, so you would have to ask the people making that claim what they are exactly. However, it seems pretty logical that, if they exist as previously stated, and if supporting the lesser evil is as morally imperative as previously stated, it seems like a simple, logical solution where people merely lose the illusion of choice. If the Democrats are truly interested in saving democracy, they should be more than willing to reimplement it once the threat of Trump has passed.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:33
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Raiad posted:The number of times that the claim that "if Trump wins, he will become a dictator" has come up, I have to wonder why the Dems don't simply enact whatever mechanisms would allow him to it to prevent him from taking power. Seems like, if we are in such a precarious state, that would be far preferable to allowing a worse dictator to take power. Because dictatorships are bad
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Feb 11, 2024 22:36
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Raiad posted:This does seem to be the end conclusion of supporting the lesser evil, however. If the choices are surrender democracy to prevent evil, or allow evil under the guise of allowing democracy, the choice seems pretty clear cut. I don't know how to explain that trying to convince other people to vote for your guy is how democracy works, and isn't dictatorship, even if you don't like your choices. It seems self evident to me.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:36
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Kagrenak posted:I see you suffer from a literal complete ability to make inferences. It must be really exhausting to never know what anyone is ever going to do, always being surprised by events which keep reoccurring in slightly new ways. I can make and understand inferences perfectly well. I'm sorry I don't find your argument convincing, but right now, if Trump's rhetoric reminds me of anything, it's John Kerry's position on the Iraq War during the '04 election, ie: "We're going to keep doing the war, but we'll do it better than Bush and win it faster." Main Paineframe posted:Rather than asking us what we personally think, why not ask Israel's leading anti-Palestinian genocide advocate, Itamar Ben-Gvir, the guy who wants to arm extremist groups in the West Bank and used to have a portrait of a mass murderer hanging in his living room? I don't think there's much of a chance that Biden is going to withhold aid to Israel. Nor do I think Biden's calls for Israel to minimize civilian casualties in Gaza, or his criticisms of Israel relocating Palestinians out of Palestine, have amounted to, well, anything. I think there's an argument to be made that Trump would be worse than Biden in terms of supporting this genocide, but it's a pretty small difference IMO, unfortunately.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:36
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Majorian posted:He hasn't made any tweets in three years (are you referring to posts on another social media outlet?), and I'm not finding the quotes you're describing in this thread (or on Google). I am seeing a far-right minister in the Israeli government saying that Trump would support Israel more, as well as Trump saying he'd reject Gazan refugees (a very bad thing, I think we can all agree), but that's kind of it. I have no doubt that he's at least as rabidly anti-Palestinian as Biden is, possibly more. The question is, what would he do? I don't see much of a reason to believe he'd send in American troops when Israel is doing a good enough job of murdering Palestinian civilians on its own. 'Truths' or whatever they're called, I don't care. You knew what I meant. He literally posted on Truth that there needed to be more, harder genocide because Americans died on October 7th. So he would find something to do that would be much worse than anything Biden has done. He's done it before, and quite easily. KillHour posted:"I want bad things to happen to the people related to the people who are hurting me" is not a positive sentiment, but I have a hard time clutching pearls about it at this point. It's approaching "death to YT" levels in my book. That's cool that you're fine with it, but it's still hardcore antisemitism. It's not going to solve anything, especially not branding it on people they clearly think are Jews.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:37
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Raiad posted:I have not been making the claim that Trump will end elections and American democracy as we know it, so you would have to ask the people making that claim what they are exactly. However, it seems pretty logical that, if they exist as previously stated, and if supporting the lesser evil is as morally imperative as previously stated, it seems like a simple, logical solution where people merely lose the illusion of choice. This is incoherent. People are saying that Trump has to be defeated in the election (and therefore, it's a good idea to vote against him) because there isn't a good alternative. You come in and insist that we should explore alternatives, and then when someone asks you which ones you say "well I don't know, that's not my problem." Are you paying any attention at all? The concept of "reimplementing" democracy after you've unilaterally decided to suspend it because you didn't like the result is also incoherent, and it's hard for me to believe it's a serious suggestion.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:39
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Failboattootoot posted:They have no will or power to do so. They have no will to install Biden as dictator because he doesn't have any kind of support for it. You don't have weirdo militias willing to storm the capital in the low thousands for Biden. The supreme court is not on Biden's side. The dems currently in office are pure decorum-brained and not interested in creating an autocratic state. Which is good, actually. Again, I'm not entirely sure how this actually would go in practice. No one is or can be unless it actually happens. However, is the military is willing to go along with a coup led by a couple dozen militia members because of some legal technicality, that seems to imply that everyone in the military is simply waiting for the right moment. It certainly doesn't paint American democracy as something that has much remaining longevity, regardless of who wins the election.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:39
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Kchama posted:'Truths' or whatever they're called, I don't care. You knew what I meant. He literally posted on Truth that there needed to be more, harder genocide because Americans died on October 7th. So he would find something to do that would be much worse than anything Biden has done. He's done it before, and quite easily. Can you find those "Truths" or whatever, or quote them? Because again, I'm looking for them and can't find them.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:40
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Eletriarnation posted:This is incoherent. People are saying that Trump has to be defeated in the election (and therefore, it's a good idea to vote against him) because there isn't a good alternative. You come in and insist that we should explore alternatives, and then when someone asks you which ones you say "well I don't know, that's not my problem." Are you paying any attention at all? It seems no less coherent to me than preserving the illusion of democracy that will immediately end if people do not vote in one very specific way for the foreseeable future.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:41
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volts5000 posted:Just like they did after losing to Reagan, Bush, and Trump. Yep, I'll just tell my trans friends and family to hold off on enjoying rights for 4 more years. Sure hope no more supreme court justices retire or die!
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Feb 11, 2024 22:46
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Raiad posted:It certainly doesn't paint American democracy as something that has much remaining longevity, regardless of who wins the election. Eh, pretty much. Like we are kicking the can down the road in the hopes that the maniacs who keep electing these lunatics die of old age or covid at last or the half of the country that are political non-actives finally start believing how crazy they are and actually start mobilizing in enough numbers to give us change-the-constitution majorities.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:47
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At worst Trump will be as bad on Gaza as Biden, while most likely he'd gently caress it up. He already floated the idea to make the aid payments to Israel loans, which would be very bad longterm for the genocidal apartheid state. But the reality is that if you want to elect someone that isn't a genocidal racist rapist you gotta find a way to make a third-party run work, because right now Biden and Trump are all those things.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:47
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Majorian posted:Can you find those "Truths" or whatever, or quote them? Because again, I'm looking for them and can't find them. From https://www.c-span.org/video/?531245-1/presidential-candidates-speak-republican-jewish-coalition-conference It's difficult to copy and paste the text, so here's a screenshot:  "If you spill a drop of American blood, we will spill a gallon of yours. We are doing that because we want to start peace. We will start wars. The wars have to be finished often times before the peace. If you don't do the wars the peace will not happen. If you aren't tough and ruthless like they are it will not happen." This sounds like obviously substantially worse.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:48
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Majorian posted:That's all pretty vague as it pertains to his handling of the issue, though - and overall pretty similar to Biden's own handling of the situation. Biden has "paused" aid to the UNRWA based on blatantly false claims by the Israeli government. After the accusations came out, about ten countries paused UNRWA funding. What is blatantly false about the claims? The UN Secretary General seemed to be concerned himself: quote:"While I understand their concerns – I was myself horrified by these accusations - I strongly appeal to the governments that have suspended their contributions to, at least, guarantee the continuity of UNRWA's operations," U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said on Sunday, promising to hold to account "any U.N. employee involved in acts of terror".
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Feb 11, 2024 22:49
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Raiad posted:It seems no less coherent to me than preserving the illusion of democracy that will immediately end if people do not vote in one very specific way for the foreseeable future. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 22:49
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trump also used that line in a recent campaign ad that opened with the number of americans killed on 10/7. obviously one cannot conclusively prove what would happen if trump were president today instead of biden but his rhetoric at least is substantially more bloodthirsty and violent
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Feb 11, 2024 22:51
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Give the thread title and the Super Bowl tonight, wouldn't Nuffle be the most applicable chaos god instead of one of the lesser four? Also given the two candidate's ages, I wonder what the parties would do if one or both pass away before the election. Guess we could have Kamala v whoever trump pics at VP
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Feb 11, 2024 22:53
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