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MonsieurChoc posted:You're the ones burying your head in the sand as you powerslide the trolley to murder as many people as possible, while I'm the one going hey, the trolley has brakes, we should stop it. The main reason you're getting the specific pushback you're getting is because, by this analogy, you came in here arguing that Hitler in the worst case would be just as bad as Hindenburg Like, you've posted some stuff that is so wildly and clearly untrue and then conflating people arguing with that as them arguing that genocide is good. Nobody here can have a conversation with you under these terms, you're just viewing anything but full agreement as bloodthirst
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Feb 12, 2024 02:26
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Lemming posted:The main reason you're getting the specific pushback you're getting is because, by this analogy, you came in here arguing that Hitler in the worst case would be just as bad as Hindenburg In this case you got Hitler and Dumber Hitler. And everything I've said is true so 
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Feb 12, 2024 02:27
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RBA Starblade posted:So who else was convinced to vote Kennedy by the super bowl ad? me
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Feb 12, 2024 02:28
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Could we shut this discussion down or move it to a different thread? It seems like nobody here can handle it and it never goes anywhere without devolving into horrible flame wars and completely consuming the thread.
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Feb 12, 2024 02:29
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The last feedback thread it was brought up multiple times that electorialism like this needs its own thread, but as with most feedback that went nowhere.
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Feb 12, 2024 02:31
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yes, because Biden is already going 100%. You can't go higher than 100%. You've...got a pretty poo poo imagination if you think this is the absolute most any US president could support Israel genociding Palestine.
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Feb 12, 2024 02:32
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socialsecurity posted:The last feedback thread it was brought up multiple times that electorialism like this needs its own thread, but as with most feedback that went nowhere. It's been 95 days since the last feedback thread, which is roughly a quarter of a year, the cadence we've been having those threads. Has there been any word on when the next feedback thread is going to be?
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Feb 12, 2024 02:36
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Ravenfood posted:You've...got a pretty poo poo imagination if you think this is the absolute most any US president could support Israel genociding Palestine. Israel is right now bombing the 1.5 million Palestinians they concentrated into Rafah. Whether or not Trump would conceivably be worse this is the actual non-theoretical result of Biden's treatment of Israel's numerous atrocities.
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Feb 12, 2024 02:37
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Fart Amplifier posted:Could we shut this discussion down or move it to a different thread? It seems like nobody here can handle it and it never goes anywhere without devolving into horrible flame wars and completely consuming the thread. It feels more like there are specific people who aren't posting in good faith and can't handle a discussion, who we have to treat as posting in good faith.
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Feb 12, 2024 02:38
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socialsecurity posted:The last feedback thread it was brought up multiple times that electorialism like this needs its own thread, but as with most feedback that went nowhere. Koos has been planning to do it Soon and I just brought it back up with him / in the mod forum because today has definitely been a bit of a mess on that count.
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Feb 12, 2024 02:41
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B B posted:More important than any of this, he has politely asked companies that produce ultra-processed foods to stop skimming our treats: The inflation measurement people have been doing a lot to improve their shrinkflation metrics in the last decade or so. It's not a huge part of grocery inflation according to their current numbers, which afaict are pretty effortful, but it's not trivial. I want to say 5-10% of it? Grocery inflation is also obviously a disproportionate Vibes influencer so it makes sense he'd want to be seen doing something. e: not gonna dig in during the super bowl but here's the BLS effortpost i was recalling: https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-12/measuring-shrinkflation-and-its-impact-on-inflation.htm Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 02:50
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TGLT posted:Israel is right now bombing the 1.5 million Palestinians they concentrated into Rafah. Whether or not Trump would conceivably be worse this is the actual non-theoretical result of Biden's treatment of Israel's numerous atrocities. It can get worse in the future, though. It is horrific now, but just imagine when Trump gets in and can do the Gazan Invasion he was screaming about.
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Feb 12, 2024 02:57
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I heard there's supposed to be a special election this month to fill the seat vacated by George Santos. How much of a bellweather for the general election in November is it likely to be?
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Feb 12, 2024 02:58
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TGLT posted:Israel is right now bombing the 1.5 million Palestinians they concentrated into Rafah. Whether or not Trump would conceivably be worse this is the actual non-theoretical result of Biden's treatment of Israel's numerous atrocities. Yes, and that is truly horrible. But saying that that is it, that is 100% of the possible genocide and it could not get worse in any way is just...wrong.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:02
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Kchama posted:It can get worse in the future, though. It is horrific now, but just imagine when Trump gets in and can do the Gazan Invasion he was screaming about. Israel right now is taking every step it would need to take to annex Gaza. What, exactly, is the meaningful distinction here? Ravenfood posted:Yes, and that is truly horrible. But saying that that is it, that is 100% of the possible genocide and it could not get worse in any way is just...wrong. Children are trying to survive on grass. Red Crescent workers are getting murdered trying to save six year olds. Unless you think Trump has a behelit and can initiate the eclipse, how exactly does it get worse?
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Feb 12, 2024 03:08
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MonsieurChoc posted:You're the ones burying your head in the sand as you powerslide the trolley to murder as many people as possible, while I'm the one going hey, the trolley has brakes, we should stop it. Stop it... how? By giving control to the person who wants to plow that trolley into as many people as possible, foreign and domestic, as a matter of policy? Edit: misquoted small butter fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 03:09
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Captain Fargle posted:I heard there's supposed to be a special election this month to fill the seat vacated by George Santos. How much of a bellweather for the general election in November is it likely to be? It's not unreasonable to use it as one but both sides will claim otherwise if their preferred candidate loses.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:10
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Captain Fargle posted:I heard there's supposed to be a special election this month to fill the seat vacated by George Santos. How much of a bellweather for the general election in November is it likely to be? However much you feel like generalizing a particularly bougie part of Long Island, NY. I’d be more interested in it as a continuation of the general special election trend than anything else.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:13
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TGLT posted:Israel right now is taking every step it would need to take to annex Gaza. What, exactly, is the meaningful distinction here? American boots on Gazan soil with American feet inside of them. Industrial genocide on a worldwide scale as Trump rolls over for Putin and Russia doesn't stop with Ukraine. Literal concentration camps on American soil with El trabajo te libera over the gates.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:16
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TGLT posted:Israel right now is taking every step it would need to take to annex Gaza. What, exactly, is the meaningful distinction here? An American invasion intending to massacre Gazans would be quite a hell bit worse than the IDF’s extremely brutal but incompetent takeover attempt. Israel has a lot of nasty weapons, but we saved worst.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:16
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Relevant Tangent posted:American boots on Gazan soil with American feet inside of them. Industrial genocide on a worldwide scale as Trump rolls over for Putin and Russia doesn't stop with Ukraine. Literal concentration camps on American soil with El trabajo te libera over the gates. I don't know how you describe Rafah as anything other than a concentration camp, which they are bombing. Israel has in fact been actively rounding up and imprisoning Palestinians in between murdering them in the streets. Whether or not the boots are Israeli or American, an active genocide is going on with Biden providing material support. I'm asking specifically about how things could be worse for Palestine. At the least if Trump was in office there's a chance some democrats might rediscover their humanity and push back on what is going on for partisan reasons. So long as Biden continues to support Netanyahu while vaguely grumbling about him (but no we would never put any restrictions on the weapons we're sending them) then Dems will feel a partisan pull to defend what is happening, or at least brush past it.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:19
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Captain Fargle posted:I heard there's supposed to be a special election this month to fill the seat vacated by George Santos. How much of a bellweather for the general election in November is it likely to be? I believe that the district is usually a Democratic one, but can't remember if New York's dumb redistricting changed it or not. Results of the special election are going to be hard to quantify when compared to 2022 due to the reason for the vacancy, lack of media invented crime wave hysterics, and it traditionally being a Democratic seat anyway.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:20
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I've been cynical about everything USPOL for a long time, but I think this is the first time I've ever felt truly disgusted to the point of hopelessness. Israel is starting to bomb Rafah right now, and every conversation I've had about this has boiled down to, "well sure, this genocide is pretty bad but if you don't vote for biden we'll have a DOUBLE genocide on your conscience and you don't want that, do you?" It's really breaking my brain that I'm being expected to vote for who supports slightly less genocides while I read about Biden bypassing congress to send weapons to Israel and read stories about the IDF murdering more and more children and innocent people every day. Rafah's going to be an absolute tragedy and I'm going to get scolded for being childlike or naive or a doomerist for not wanting to support for more of what I'm watching unfold day after day in real time. I'm absolutely amazed that anyone after the trump years could make me feel as disgusted and contemptuous towards the office as when he was president, but here we are. It would be nice to at least pretend we have an opposition party. Democrats have no one to blame but themselves if trump wins again, because any president following trump should have had the easiest loving slamdunk-homerun in history and instead we're bickering about how many more potential genocides the other guy might do if he wins.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:23
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Meow Tse-tung posted:I've been cynical about everything USPOL for a long time, but I think this is the first time I've ever felt truly disgusted to the point of hopelessness. Israel is starting to bomb Rafah right now, and every conversation I've had about this has boiled down to, "well sure, this genocide is pretty bad but if you don't vote for biden we'll have a DOUBLE genocide on your conscience and you don't want that, do you?" I don't see any defenses of Biden or minimizations of how completely and utterly abborrent he's being on this issue, I think people are more just reacting to the bizarre claims that like, Trump somehow is prevented by some natural law of the universe from being worse, or that there's literally nothing that Biden isn't already doing that could make things even worse I feel like the driver behind this is people being exasperated by how much worse things are than they seem, which makes it feel necessary to be unequivocal about how bad things are. But to go from that point to saying no, things are as bad as they possibly could be, and that by extension Trump winning could somehow improve the situation, it just makes no sense. Forcing the Democrats to reckon with the possibility of losing the election and having to change their strategy from genocide support to not genocide support makes sense. Claiming that if they lost the election they would start defending Palestine is magical thinking
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Feb 12, 2024 03:39
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TGLT posted:I don't know how you describe Rafah as anything other than a concentration camp, which they are bombing. Israel has in fact been actively rounding up and imprisoning Palestinians in between murdering them in the streets. Whether or not the boots are Israeli or American, an active genocide is going on with Biden providing material support. While I sincerely hope that voters re-elect Joe Biden, I don't think it's wrong to decide that you can't vote for Biden for any given reason. But! the idea that things can't possibly get worse in Palestine is mind-blowing to me. My view may be warped due to Rwanda being closer to home and also dominating the news back home when I was a kid, but there the Tutsi population was roughly equivalent to the population of Gaza and in three months Hutu militias massacred, at minimum, half a million of them mainly with rifles and pangas. And that's to say nothing of the use of rape as tool of genocide. By comparison, Israel's assault on Gaza with high tech weaponry has been ongoing for longer and the death toll is approaching 30,000. And I understand that Israel and you guys are all part of the first world heartland where poo poo like that doesn't happen, but the fact that Gaza is terrible doesn't mean it can't get orders of magnitude worse. If you help Trump get elected will it make it that much worse? Probably not, I suppose. Ultimately it's an academic question for me as a non-USian who just lives here. And as a cishet white man I'm pretty insulated from anything Trump would do, so perhaps it's lovely view on my part based on not really being at risk.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:50
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Lemming posted:I don't see any defenses of Biden or minimizations of how completely and utterly abborrent he's being on this issue, I think people are more just reacting to the bizarre claims that like, Trump somehow is prevented by some natural law of the universe from being worse, or that there's literally nothing that Biden isn't already doing that could make things even worse And earlier, there were people who said that they will be put in harm’s way under a second Trump administration, but their fears were dismissed. “Look, we’re just going to have to throw you under the bus for a strategy that has no chance of working or to assuage my conscience over this one singular issue. But look on the bright side! If you survive the next four years, there’s a slight possible chance that the Democrats could nominate someone I’d be happy to vote for! Until then, you’re on your own!”
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Feb 12, 2024 03:52
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The argument for Biden shouldn't be he is any less of a genocidal war criminal than Trump but rather than voting for an actual genocidal war criminal don't vote and if Trump becomes a genocidal war criminal himself, both could be prosecuted
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Feb 12, 2024 03:54
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Meow Tse-tung posted:I've been cynical about everything USPOL for a long time, but I think this is the first time I've ever felt truly disgusted to the point of hopelessness. Israel is starting to bomb Rafah right now, and every conversation I've had about this has boiled down to, "well sure, this genocide is pretty bad but if you don't vote for biden we'll have a DOUBLE genocide on your conscience and you don't want that, do you?" Biden supporters are the brain broken ones, they don't have anything more than genocide defense at this point. Also in Trump's theoretical Genocide+1 they will be doing the same thing they always do, fully supporting the mass murder of brown people abroad.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:54
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Dunite posted:The argument for Biden shouldn't be he is any less of a genocidal war criminal than Trump but rather than voting for an actual genocidal war criminal don't vote and if Trump becomes a genocidal war criminal himself, both could be prosecuted That's not what's going to happen though, what is going to happen is even more people foreign and domestic would be hurt.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:55
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socialsecurity posted:That's not what's going to happen though, what is going to happen is even more people foreign and domestic would be hurt. Isn't this the fallacy of the nice Nazi? If I don't persecute someone less than the other guy I know who will do worse, I can absolve myself of the crime?
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Feb 12, 2024 03:57
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Dunite posted:Isn't this the fallacy of the nice Nazi? No it's calling out your fantasy as not being something that will happen. We might as well argue you shouldn't vote for Biden because pixies will fly out and fix everyone's problems that is as likely as American Presidents being tried for war crimes.
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Feb 12, 2024 03:59
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There are basically two broad models of what constitutes "right and wrong". Consequentialism is the idea that things are right if they produce good outcomes. Deontology is the idea that actions are right or wrong in and of themselves. Ultimately, both of them fling themselves screaming over a cliff if you try to tease them out to their furthest extent. Consequentialism eventually leads to the kind of utilitarianism where it's morally correct to butcher a billion people if it saves a billion and one people. (Also questions like "does believing in utilitarianism actually result in the greatest possible good?".) Deontology leads to a position where it's morally correct to butcher a billion people rather than make any ethical compromises at all. Biden electoralism is a really good example of the failures of deontology.
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Feb 12, 2024 04:00
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I've been staying out of electoralism chat and continue to do so because it is at best pointless and really should have its own thread once Koos figures out how he wants to do it. That said, there's an election related issue that I've banged on about before: Show up to your goddamn local and, as convenient, state conventions. Make sure the delegates to the next layer up are good, elevate your issues of choice. Ask delegate candidates (especially if you have more candidates than slots, which isn't always the case locally) their thoughts on Gaza and if their opinions are bad and not changeable, pick someone else. Make the Delaware state convention overwhelmingly anti-genocide.
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Feb 12, 2024 04:02
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Please God/Fate/the Universe/whatever, if you're not gonna have Biden and Trump succumb to old-man-itis for the sake of the Palestinians, would you at least have them succumb for the sake of ending this argument?
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Feb 12, 2024 04:04
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I've been staying out of electoralism chat and continue to do so because it is at best pointless and really should have its own thread once Koos figures out how he wants to do it. That said, there's an election related issue that I've banged on about before: This is very true, change is achievable but it's not done via ranting at people on internet forums.
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Feb 12, 2024 04:04
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Axetrain posted:Biden supporters are the brain broken ones, they don't have anything more than genocide defense at this point. Also in Trump's theoretical Genocide+1 they will be doing the same thing they always do, fully supporting the mass murder of brown people abroad. Yeah, there's zero reason to vote for Biden except lusting for the death of brown people. What the gently caress is this poo poo.
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Feb 12, 2024 04:05
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Majorian posted:I don't necessarily disagree with this, but bear in mind, I was talking specifically about Gaza, and comparing Biden and Trump's stances (and likely material impacts) on the crisis. I know Majorian is probated, but for the lurkers ITT, I want to make it crystal clear for anyone wondering about Trump's actions. Majorian is trying to throw up smoke screens by continuing to move goalposts (as their probation reason stated) and sow doubt in facts. But Trump is much worse than Biden for Palestine, and we can see that based on his actions when he was president. For a simple fact: Iran, one of the architects of the Oct 7th attack, claimed that it was in revenge for Soleimani's assassination (that Trump approved). Hamas denies it, but it seems unlikely they would have been able to perform this attack at the same scale without Iran's assistance.
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Feb 12, 2024 04:12
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Eiba posted:The most comfortable position is actually that things are the worst they can be so you don't need to worry about your vote/lack of vote making things worse. That's way more comforting than the idea that you might be morally obligated to support a genocider to prevent a worse genocider from gaining power. I'm sorry, but this is nuts. You get that this is nuts, right? You are not morally obligated to vote for a genocidaire. You are in fact morally obligated to not do that. You do not pick between the lesser of two genocides, you refuse the question. The inaction of not endorsing genocide is always morally superior to the action of endorsing a genocide. If genocide is inevitable then at the very least do not stain your own soul by giving it your stamp of approval. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 12, 2024 04:12
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Dunite posted:The argument for Biden shouldn't be he is any less of a genocidal war criminal than Trump but rather than voting for an actual genocidal war criminal don't vote and if Trump becomes a genocidal war criminal himself, both could be prosecuted Honestly believing in Donald The Dove is far more logical and likely than any US President being held accountable criminally for foreign affairs. The argument for Biden is to present domestic progress he has done, point to his desire to help Ukraine, and then let the other person decide if that is good enough or if his support for Israel is beyond their bottom line. Everyone has to calculate how much evil they can stand in their lesser evil calculations for themselves. No one vote is going to sway poo poo nationally, and each of our votes count for different amounts anyway due to geographic location. None of us are actually pulling the lever in the electoral trolly problem, we are just influencing how hard it's pulled to different degrees.
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Tatsuta Age posted:Are you saying this is actually bad or what Its a pretty bad commercial. In retail you're explicitly told not to apologize to customers that have been waiting in line for too long, because it increases the chance that all they'll remember from their shop is they had a long wait, even if they overall were fine with the experience. In this commercial all he's effectively doing is reminding people inflation exists - look how much your candy is smaller, that sucks! If he had some kind of action, even small and symbolic, to add to the message I'd say it'd make sense to bring it up, but all he had was a demand to companies to stop doing it. And he also left that til the end of the message so half the people probably only saw him talk about how things are smaller now and switched off. Also he's too quiet, make his microphone louder and get some other people in the theater with him so he doesn't look like a crazy person who watches things by himself.
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