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Xiahou Dun posted:That isn't my proposal. This is a self-selected group of university level students in a statistics class vs. a control group of other university students. By virtue of already being in university they're long, long since beyond the relevant level. I'm talking about increasing math education for middle schoolers. I suspect studies of college students will be the best available data obtainable on this question, given the ethical restrictions on studies involving children.
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Feb 12, 2024 20:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I suspect studies of college students will be the best available data obtainable on this question, given the ethical restrictions on studies involving children. This would be a better design for answering the questions being asked in this thread, and it would get past an Internal Review Board: 1. Randomly assign hundreds of students to anti-gambling education or control group. 2. Check back in 5, 10, 20, 30 years later and measure how often they gamble/impact.of gambling behavior on their lives. This kind of longitudinal work is the only way to measure programs like DARE and what Xiahou Dun is proposing is basically DARE but with gambling instead of drugs.
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Feb 12, 2024 20:21
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Is there proof that a significant portion of problem-gamblers are people who are not aware that, in general, gamblers lose their money? And yet public health interventions protecting the lives and health of heroin users involve education beyond 'hey did you know this is bad'? A robust toolkit of knowledge about safer injections practices, narcan administration, etc. saves lives. This poo poo isn't binary and people, even those in the grip of addiction, are complex entities with multifactorial decision-making processes
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Feb 12, 2024 20:21
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Is there proof that there's some subset of people who are not aware that, in general, gamblers lose their money? Everyone knows that getting into car accidents is bad for your health, and yet educational campaigns about wearing seatbelts are immensely effective. Lemming posted:I'm a little confused, why are you proposing specific concrete, novel changes to math curricula if you *don't* have any relevant studies proving they would actually help? Like, not to say that everything needs to be absolutely proven to the n'th degree, but it feels like this is the kind of thing that a priori seems like it could help, and then after checking it out it just doesn't align with the initial assumptions. I'm unaware of anyone actually trying the kinds of hands-on fundamentals-first education I'm proposing on a mass scale. Math education in the US has historically been rote learning with minimal effort at actually explaining what's going on besides ability at computation. If someone has, I'd love to read it. Hieronymous Alloy posted:I suspect studies of college students will be the best available data obtainable on this question, given the ethical restrictions on studies involving children. That doesn't make them magically more relevant, however. Also I've done research on kids, it's not that hard. Once you're already going through an IRB it's already going to be a huge pain in the rear end. Civilized Fishbot posted:This would be a better design for answering the questions being asked in this thread, and it would get past an Internal Review Board: Do kindly gently caress off with telling me what my own argument is. You clearly don't understand it if you think I mean math-DARE.
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Feb 12, 2024 20:21
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Civilized Fishbot posted:This would be a better design for answering the questions being asked in this thread, and it would get past an Internal Review Board: Do we have any studies on whether or not DARE worked ? Edit: that was a rhetorical question while I googled https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448384/ Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 20:22
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it would be interesting to know how many people gamble because they think they can make money off of it, as opposed to those who gamble for fun or due to being addicted (who probably started because they like the dopamine hit, i.e. gambling for fun).
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Feb 12, 2024 20:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Do we have any studies on whether or not DARE worked ? It had an incredibly small (small enough that it could be statistical noise) overall impact on the rate of drug use among people who participated in it. But, programs that used overly sensational material about all drugs (including alcohol and weed) also had the effect of making kids skeptical about other claims made about harder drugs. Overall, basically no impact. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448384/ There DARE program was officially retired during the Obama administration and they created the "new DARE" program that launched a few years ago. The expectation is that it will be more effective than the original DARE because it is based on copying previous programs that worked, but they still don't have enough data to say if it is making any difference yet. https://americanaddictioncenters.org/blog/new-dare-program-work Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 20:27
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Xiahou Dun posted:Do kindly gently caress off with telling me what my own argument is. You clearly don't understand it if you think I mean math-DARE. Woah, I wasn't trying to upset you and I'm sincerely sorry I did. This is just policy talk, let's chill out. It sounded to me like you were proposing something very similar to DARE - a program aimed at young students to communicate the plain dangers of addictive and self-destructive behaviors that we know will be advertised them as they get older. The best way to measure the effectiveness of such a program would be a longitudinal study like what's been conducted for DARE, sex-ed programs, and other interventions aimed at helping students avoid dangers that they're going to encounter as they get older. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 20:29
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Woah, I wasn't trying to upset you and I'm sincerely sorry I did. This is just policy talk, let's chill out. Sorry, I'm getting frustrated by people responding to made up versions of my proposal. I'm talking about making changes in the actual math curriculum, not a dumb little band-aid PSA.
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Feb 12, 2024 20:32
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lobster shirt posted:it would be interesting to know how many people gamble because they think they can make money off of it, as opposed to those who gamble for fun or due to being addicted (who probably started because they like the dopamine hit, i.e. gambling for fun). I'm not really able to bring any data sources to the fore right now on this, but the propensity to gamble can be strongly set in people who have dealt with poverty economics for most of their developmental years, especially if their parents have modeled a gambling mindset. You have kids who already have scratch ticket impulsivity and it develops into a combination of thrillseeking combined with the feeling of it being the longshot potential "way out" for seemingly inescapable cycles of poverty.
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Feb 12, 2024 20:34
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Xiahou Dun posted:Sorry, I'm getting frustrated by people responding to made up versions of my proposal. I get it. It's frustrating when people misinterpret what you're trying to say. I'm sincerely interested - I used to be a math teacher. I'm skeptical, but I'm interested. I see that what you're describing differs from DARE in terms of the intensity of treatment. I still think a longitudinal study is the best/only way to study the effectiveness of 'preventative education programs" including DARE, other anti-drug curricula, sex Ed, and the anti-gambling curriculum you're describing. And (responding to a different user here) I don't think it would present ethical issues - you can randomly assign kids to education programs within reason, and you can send them surveys for as many years after that as you want. That's really all I meant by comparing your proposal to DARE, I'm sorry if I implied that your proposal was bound to be ineffective/laughable like DARE is generally considered to be today. I agree with you that the college-student study is not really applicable to what you're describing. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 20:40
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Kavros posted:I'm not really able to bring any data sources to the fore right now on this, but the propensity to gamble can be strongly set in people who have dealt with poverty economics for most of their developmental years, especially if their parents have modeled a gambling mindset. You have kids who already have scratch ticket impulsivity and it develops into a combination of thrillseeking combined with the feeling of it being the longshot potential "way out" for seemingly inescapable cycles of poverty. According to these polls from last year: Sports gamblers are: - Wealthier than the average American. - Much more male than average. - Younger than average. - Whiter than average. - 93% of them got into it because they are sports fans and find it makes games more exciting. - 80% say that the chance to make money makes watching games more entertaining or exciting. - 2/3 gamble online. - 1/3 gamble at a physical location. - 12% of Americans have placed at least one sports bet in the last year. - 18% of people who have gambled on sports say they have bet and lost money that they needed to meet their immediate financial obligations at least once. Among people who have never gambled on sports and have no desire to ever bet on sports, the main reasons they don't gamble are: 1) Waste of money. 2) Don't watch sports. However, a majority of non-gamblers still think it should be legal and view gambling as a personal choice. https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/sports-betting-everywhere-how-do-americans-feel-about-it https://legislativegazette.com/poll...betting%20apps. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 20:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's talk about it, but Belgium (which has incredibly wide legal definitions for gambling) is the only country that officially has a ban on the books. They don't enforce it, though. Even with Belgium having the only actual loot box ban, the threat of a wider ban in the EU seems to have been enough to get game developers to make a pretty quick shift away from loot boxes in their games. As far as I can tell, a bunch of game developers either backed off completely on loot boxes or substantially modified them after the threats of bans and such in late 2017, but EA still has them as a big revenue generator in their FIFA games.
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Feb 12, 2024 20:59
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Xiahou Dun posted:
As I went over above, this is because a proposal that relies on massively improving grade level math education in the US is just unfeasible. The American public education system is collapsing as we speak from political attacks; this sort of proposal in thr current political environment is just wishful thinking. quote:That doesn't make them magically more relevant, however. Makes them the most relevant data in the thread, tho. More to the point, the cited study contained a control group of students who were not in any college level math classes at all. If there is no difference between students who have received the maximum in statistical education, and students who have received nothing beyond the inadequate math education provided by the current pre-college system . . .why would your proposal make any difference? Your proposal.seems.either untestable (we simply can't reform grade level education at that scale) or to the extent it is testable, already disproven (as college students receiving a maximum amount of statistical education exhibit no difference in gambling behavior from a control group not receiving that maximum). If you have better data feel free to share but considering all the grandstanding up thread and demands for proof, what do you have to show that's stronger or equal than what I've provided so far? I call.
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Feb 12, 2024 21:02
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That was total revenue, so they aren't keeping all of it, but that is how much Americans spent. I don’t know how they calculate handle, so is this $92B figure really representing $92B earned elsewhere and then spent on sports betting, or could there be some double counting at play? Like, if I bet $10 and win $20, bet that same $20 and win $15, and bet that $15 and lose it all, are they saying that I “spent” $45?
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Feb 12, 2024 21:06
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You may or may have not heard that there was an attempted mass shooting at Lakewood Church in Houston (Osteen's church) on Sunday. The discourse on this one is going to be intolerable, as the perpetrator ended up being a trans woman with "Free Palestine" written on her AR-15. She was stopped by "good guys with guns", so this will perfectly slot into the conservative narrative on guns and mass shootings. (That the off duty cops returning fire likely shot a child who is not expected to survive will be omitted of course). Fox is already visibly erect over it 
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Feb 12, 2024 21:08
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zoux posted:You may or may have not heard that there was an attempted mass shooting at Lakewood Church in Houston (Osteen's church) on Sunday. The discourse on this one is going to be intolerable, as the perpetrator ended up being a trans woman with "Free Palestine" written on her AR-15. She was stopped by "good guys with guns", so this will perfectly slot into the conservative narrative on guns and mass shootings. (That the off duty cops returning fire likely shot a child who is not expected to survive will be omitted of course). Hmmmm, this is bad for the brand. 
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Feb 12, 2024 21:09
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zoux posted:You may or may have not heard that there was an attempted mass shooting at Lakewood Church in Houston (Osteen's church) on Sunday. The discourse on this one is going to be intolerable, as the perpetrator ended up being a trans woman with "Free Palestine" written on her AR-15. She was stopped by "good guys with guns", so this will perfectly slot into the conservative narrative on guns and mass shootings. (That the off duty cops returning fire likely shot a child who is not expected to survive will be omitted of course). what subforums did she post in
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Feb 12, 2024 21:12
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zoux posted:You may or may have not heard that there was an attempted mass shooting at Lakewood Church in Houston (Osteen's church) on Sunday. The discourse on this one is going to be intolerable, as the perpetrator ended up being a trans woman with "Free Palestine" written on her AR-15. She was stopped by "good guys with guns", so this will perfectly slot into the conservative narrative on guns and mass shootings. (That the off duty cops returning fire likely shot a child who is not expected to survive will be omitted of course). Really not looking forward to the hideous poo poo I'm likely not going to be able to avoid reading over the next few days.
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Feb 12, 2024 21:15
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Yeah this is going to be a Discourse shitstorm the likes of which we haven't seen in a good long while
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Feb 12, 2024 21:16
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I'm lucky, for me the "well that sucks" feeling of losing a bet is vastly stronger than the "oh this rules" feeling of winning one. I'm pretty strongly risk-averse as a result, it's gotta be some serious poo poo like "I think this chick is the love of my life so I'll move to another country for her" levels before I will countenance taking a big leap. I'm not immune to dopamine by any stretch I just prefer to get it from video games, can't savescum IRL after all. Xiahou, I get what you're going for but the pushback is that people simply don't agree that gambling problems stem from a poor understanding of the odds. It's the same as the UKMT occasionally talking about the National Lottery as if it's a bad or foolish investment - it's not an investment. It's a thrill and a hope for a long-shot at a life changing sum of money. Sure, you'll almost certainly never win it but if you do, it's a massive deal. As long as that 'if' exists, no matter how remote, there will be a level of potential payout that will be enough to entice punters. The people you're arguing with simply do not agree that education - at any level, to any degree of understanding - is relevant, because it does not negate the existence of that 'if'.
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Feb 12, 2024 21:24
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:As I went over above, this is because a proposal that relies on massively improving grade level math education in the US is just unfeasible. The American public education system is collapsing as we speak from political attacks; this sort of proposal in thr current political environment is just wishful thinking. You've changed the argument from "doesn't work" to "can't be implemented currently". I'm done with this because you can't actually engage with my argument.
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Feb 12, 2024 21:27
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Re: shooter; the discourse is not going to move a single inch because those people never relied on reality for their arguments in the first place
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Feb 12, 2024 21:30
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Xiahou Dun posted:You've changed the argument from "doesn't work" to "can't be implemented currently". That's fine but FWIW I've been arguing both points concurrently this entire time. It both wouldn't work and also can't be implemented. I've been making both points all along; my position has not changed.
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Feb 12, 2024 21:30
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zoux posted:You may or may have not heard that there was an attempted mass shooting at Lakewood Church in Houston (Osteen's church) on Sunday. The discourse on this one is going to be intolerable, as the perpetrator ended up being a trans woman with "Free Palestine" written on her AR-15. She was stopped by "good guys with guns", so this will perfectly slot into the conservative narrative on guns and mass shootings. (That the off duty cops returning fire likely shot a child who is not expected to survive will be omitted of course). apperently, the kid was brought with her. so yeah, the whole thing reeks of untreated mental illness and easy access to guns and her making things worse for herself from staring into the horrors online. Aztec Galactus posted:Re: shooter; the discourse is not going to move a single inch because those people never relied on reality for their arguments in the first place also this. haveblue posted:Yeah this is going to be a Discourse shitstorm the likes of which we haven't seen in a good long while I mean its already been one, no one is gonna give a poo poo bout this except the chuds because the body count was 1 and probably sadly 2 because the kid being dragged along and then hosed by cops. if she had killed like 10 people, then it would be a whole thing. I am just happy no one else was hurt. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 21:42
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Xiahou Dun posted:Do kindly gently caress off with telling me what my own argument is. You clearly don't understand it if you think I mean math-DARE. I also interpreted your argument as math-DARE, or at least close enough that whether or not DARE worked was significant. Maybe rather than get hostile, clarify your argument if people aren't understanding it.
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Feb 12, 2024 21:53
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Edit: Removed as I was reacting to misinformation about the Lakewood shooting, seriously gently caress Fox News and right wing media
Counted fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 21:53
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Xiahou Dun posted:Do kindly gently caress off with telling me what my own argument is. You clearly don't understand it if you think I mean math-DARE. The issue is that you are arguing for Gambling Abuse Preparation in Education, but in reality the only way that is better than DARE is the acronym.
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Feb 12, 2024 21:59
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Bifner McDoogle posted:The issue is that you are arguing for Gambling Abuse Preparation in Education, but in reality the only way that is better than DARE is the acronym. DARE to GAPE is definitely a slogan...
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Feb 12, 2024 22:07
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i still remember the chorus to the DARE song we had to learn in fifth grade. on the other hand, i later in life went on to do drugs.
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Feb 12, 2024 22:08
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I feel like the DARE generation growing up to push a widespread and often successful weed legalization movement is de facto proof that it failed
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Feb 12, 2024 22:19
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haveblue posted:I feel like the DARE generation growing up to push a widespread and often successful weed legalization movement is de facto proof that it failed To be fair, I've never wanted to take Angel Dust because of the "crazy PCP addict" stories my school's DARE officer would tell us in class.
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Feb 12, 2024 22:21
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Bifner McDoogle posted:The issue is that you are arguing for Gambling Abuse Preparation in Education, but in reality the only way that is better than DARE is the acronym. No I’m talking about improving the math curriculum but I’m not expressing myself well/fast enough to deal with half a dozen people arguing things I never said. Yes, the stupid thing I never suggested wouldn’t work ; you beat up that strawman real good though.
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Feb 12, 2024 22:22
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Eric Cantonese posted:To be fair, I've never wanted to take Angel Dust because of the "crazy PCP addict" stories my school's DARE officer would tell us in class. Being able to lift a car and feeling nothing after being tased four times sounds pretty rad, though.
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Feb 12, 2024 22:23
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haveblue posted:I feel like the DARE generation growing up to push a widespread and often successful weed legalization movement is de facto proof that it failed I am in a weird case because I was in elementary school til like 2004 or so. So I was at the tail end of DARE. We just had some former cop show up some time and talk about stranger danger and don’t take stuff from strangers and stuff. I never had any of that poo poo in middle or high school. I never got into recreational drugs because I take enough stuff for transplants and stuff and have bad experiences in the hospital with hallucinogenic effects of stuff on a vent.
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Feb 12, 2024 22:25
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zoux posted:You may or may have not heard that there was an attempted mass shooting at Lakewood Church in Houston (Osteen's church) on Sunday. The discourse on this one is going to be intolerable, as the perpetrator ended up being a trans woman with "Free Palestine" written on her AR-15. She was stopped by "good guys with guns", so this will perfectly slot into the conservative narrative on guns and mass shootings. (That the off duty cops returning fire likely shot a child who is not expected to survive will be omitted of course). The shooter wasn't trans. It's another loving hoax that chuds are pushing and you really shouldn't post poo poo like this before actual authorities confirm it. They've been trying to do this for almost every single mass shooting lately. https://x.com/Esqueer_/status/1757141101725786617?s=20
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Feb 12, 2024 22:26
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As an IK for the gambling sub-forum here on the SA Forums, I have some authority in saying that while sports gambling can be legal, it needs to be regulated like similar vices. If states can legalize recreational cannabis usage and control its distribution, they should also be able to do the same for SpendKings.
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Feb 12, 2024 22:26
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Queering Wheel posted:The shooter wasn't trans. It's another loving hoax that chuds are pushing and you really shouldn't post poo poo like this before actual authorities confirm it. They've been trying to do this for almost every single mass shooting lately. Yeah, i didnt hear about any of that before i saw it on here. i just heard about the gun tag. i am pretty sure its a case of "woman didnt look like a model and was a criminal=trans" line of thought from chuds.
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Feb 12, 2024 22:30
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Queering Wheel posted:The shooter wasn't trans. It's another loving hoax that chuds are pushing and you really shouldn't post poo poo like this before actual authorities confirm it. They've been trying to do this for almost every single mass shooting lately. Fox has appropriately updated its scary headlline  Houston Chronicle has also updated its story quote:Officers continued to engage Genesse until she fell to the ground, Hassig said. Her child also fell to the ground after being shot in the head. Genesse was pronounced dead at 2:07 p.m. Authorities stated that the buttstock of the AR-15 she wielded featured a sticker of the word "Palestine." Previous reports incorrectly stated the long gun featured the words "Free Palestine." Hassig stated "antisemitic writings" have been discovered in subsequent investigations into Genesse. The commander said the shooter used male and female aliases in the past, but has identified as female "this entire time."
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Feb 12, 2024 22:33
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zoux posted:Fox has appropriately updated its scary headlline yeah, sounds like she had a lot of issues to put it lightly. feel real bad for the kid.
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Feb 12, 2024 22:39
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