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Liquid Communism posted:Slavery is irreconcilable with the NAP, if you're being remotely intellectually honest. Slavery is at base using the threat of violence to force someone to obey and perform work for you. The problem is that for actual Libertarians' concepts like "Slavery" and "Liberty" are really mushy. For instance, they often think having to pay taxes is a form of slavery. So when they are centering their understanding of slavery on things like that, institutions like actual chattel slavery don't look like an issue for them. Liberty works the same way- Liberty is often used as a rhetorical consolation prize. Sure you don't have Government Healthcare but you're free to seek out the best Healthcare you can afford. Having choices, to them, is better than only having one (superior) option. The logic very much reminds me of how you negotiate with a toddler, by giving them options to do different things so they don't get frustrated by being forced to do ONE thing.
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Feb 5, 2024 15:54
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It's okay ONLY if you establish a safeword.
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Feb 5, 2024 15:54
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I think "Everything is a form of slavery except for actual slavery" was one of the earlier thread titles
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Feb 5, 2024 16:00
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Liquid Communism posted:Slavery is irreconcilable with the NAP, if you're being remotely intellectually honest. They're not. Libertarians generally view NAP as a one-way street, a way to decry what they perceive to be as aggression toward themselves/their property, and not reflecting anything they themselves do. Sure, they may talk big talk about voluntarist consideration of others, but in practice if what they want conflicts with the body or property of others, they manage to think up a justification for it that squares with NAP. It all boils down to what we've been formulating for years: American libertarianism is nothing more than a mask for naked selfishness. Guavanaut posted:I think "Everything is a form of slavery except for actual slavery" was one of the earlier thread titles I believe you're right, and unsurprisingly it came from when Jrod cited a Cato Institute (I think) "study" that found the UAE to be a more free state than the US. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Feb 5, 2024 |
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Feb 5, 2024 16:01
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Captain_Maclaine posted:They're not. Libertarians generally view NAP as a one-way street, a way to decry what they perceive to be as aggression toward themselves/their property, and not reflecting anything they themselves do. Sure, they may talk big talk about voluntarist consideration of others, but in practice if what they want conflicts with the body or property of others, they manage to think up a justification for it that squares with NAP. It all boils down to what we've been formulating for years: American libertarianism is nothing more than a mask for naked selfishness. Was this the one that deemed, like, New Zealand to be a libertarian utopia?
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Feb 5, 2024 18:05
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Sure was!
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Feb 5, 2024 18:22
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If I am remembering the study you are referencing, then it was specifically "economic freedom" they were measuring. The UAE and Sweden both scored surprisingly high because of things like having low business taxes, no legally mandated minimum wage, and most labor policies were set by private actors (trade groups and employers) reaching private agreements. The UAE's "technically slavery" situation didn't count against it because it wasn't an "overall" measure of freedom.
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Feb 5, 2024 18:27
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:If I am remembering the study you are referencing, then it was specifically "economic freedom" they were measuring. The UAE and Sweden both scored surprisingly high because of things like haveing low business taxes, no legally mandated minimum wage, and most labor policies were set by private actors (trade groups and employers) reaching private agreements. You recall correctly. Jrod's whole thing, well one of them anyway, was that all rights flow from economic freedom so he thought it was a slam dunk and, characteristically, hadn't bothered to actually read the entire article.
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Feb 5, 2024 18:29
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At what point in your life did you decide you had to hand it to them, Leon Where did it all go wrong
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Feb 5, 2024 18:29
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Rappaport posted:At what point in your life did you decide you had to hand it to them, Leon Not handing it to JRod. I'm saying that his analysis of that study determined that the average person as more free in the UAE than the U.S. - despite the actual slavery - which is obviously bonkers because "freedom" means more than just economic freedom. Otherwise, you get crazy stats like the UAE and Saudi Arabia having freer people than France. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Feb 5, 2024 |
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Feb 5, 2024 18:32
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Here's the post if anyone wants to go back and read pages of people laughing at him again. I'm including my absolute favorite line in the post because hoo-ee, it's a doozy  polymathy posted:Especially the two countries at the very top of this list, New Zealand and Switzerland, come fairly close to a libertarian ideal in terms of their economic policies. Both have relatively low public debt and are very decentralized societies.
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Feb 5, 2024 18:35
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Going to guess his opinion of NZ changed during covid.
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Feb 6, 2024 07:21
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Not handing it to JRod. I'm saying that his analysis of that study determined that the average person as more free in the UAE than the U.S. - despite the actual slavery - which is obviously bonkers because "freedom" means more than just economic freedom. Otherwise, you get crazy stats like the UAE and Saudi Arabia having freer people than France. Thing is, even if you're just looking at "economic freedom," slaves don't have economic freedom at all. Which, of course, isn't a disqualification for libertarians because the ideology is garbage and the assumption is that they would never be the ones being crushed by the boot.
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Feb 6, 2024 21:36
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Going to guess his opinion of NZ changed during covid. I'm not going to say it was a pity he got perma'd years before the pandemic, but it would likely be entertaining given his penchant for quackery.
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Feb 6, 2024 21:57
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Brazilian libertarians are simping super hard for Bukele. Re-elected with hige margins, cleaned up the country, loves crypto! That he basically empties the Judiciary and Congress and made himself a soft despot, jailing a substantial percentage of the wholecountry on no charges doesn't matter or was 'necessary'. Of course, if a labour president or even minister here even investigates a conservative, it's a sign of the coming gulags and that we are already under a dictatorship. (They got 'Lula Ditador' to trend briefly on Twitter yesterday)
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Feb 7, 2024 00:08
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Is that the leader that conservatives are praising for making crime go down a bajillion percent by arresting all the criminals or something over simplistic?
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Feb 7, 2024 00:13
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Panfilo posted:Is that the leader that conservatives are praising for making crime go down a bajillion percent by arresting all the criminals or something over simplistic? Bukele did basically replace all police and security policies in El Salvadore with Judge Dredd and Punisher comic, so probably.
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Feb 7, 2024 00:16
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Argentina's new libertarian president just had his only piece of legislation fail to pass. Instead of trying to amend it or do something to get a version of it passed, he is going to resubmit the bill over and over and threaten to hold a non-binding referendum that doesn't do anything legally, but will show congress that the people are on his side and then... they will change their mind and pass his bill. https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1755230484592779338 quote:JPMorgan economist Diego Pereira said Tuesday that the lack of support in the National Congress for the bill suggests Milei's administration should reconsider its political strategy, "opening up a more challenging period which could lead to increased volatility." quote:"Against this backdrop, the possibility of President Milei calling for a non-binding referendum gains probability. Worth noting, during the campaign Milei referred to the possibility of calling for a non-binding referendum in case of facing a logjam in Congress," Pereira said. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/07/arg...=twitter%7Cmain
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Feb 7, 2024 21:57
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The libertarian Card Game is here! Crossposting from the MTG thread quote:Wonders of The First was born on the first block of Proof-of-Stake Ethereum, making it the only collection deployed in this historic block. All tokens, known as “Character Proofs,” were minted and staked instantly, awaiting their first owner.
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Feb 8, 2024 16:12
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HootTheOwl posted:The libertarian Card Game is here! Guarantee you that a hyper optimal deck has already been plucked out to flip if they hit it big. Imagine if WOTC was incentivised to do a reglue job on their own products.
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Feb 9, 2024 17:31
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Feb 9, 2024 20:30
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Of course you're subscribed to semafor.
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Feb 9, 2024 21:13
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https://x.com/TheYcOrg/status/1757322958958117304?s=20 I did not expect to see Valhalla DRO in the wild today.
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Feb 14, 2024 02:00
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Maybe I'm taking this too seriously, but I can't imagine a situation where these protection companies don't just divvy up turfs between themselves and live like feudal lords with their local monopoly on force. Which, you know, companies like ISPs already do, except with more violence.
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Feb 14, 2024 02:23
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Clarste posted:Maybe I'm taking this too seriously, but I can't imagine a situation where these protection companies don't just divvy up turfs between themselves and live like feudal lords with their local monopoly on force. Which, you know, companies like ISPs already do, except with more violence. Ah, but you see: https://x.com/TheYcOrg/status/1757522900398014709?s=20
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Feb 14, 2024 02:33
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Ah, of course, so since war is financially untenable, everyone will immediately declare war on any rogue company for no particular reason. Naturally.
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Feb 14, 2024 02:45
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Caros posted:https://x.com/TheYcOrg/status/1757322958958117304?s=20 Lol beat me to it, just saw this https://twitter.com/TheYcOrg/status/1757347950051692944?t=xE9wStUbEFwCRU6y7YjFNw&s=19
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Feb 14, 2024 04:29
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That's a lot of steps to say: Support Your Local Warlord. Literally, selling your rights at discount for protection.
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Feb 14, 2024 04:39
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Even assuming this works like they imagine and everyone plays ball, it's like they've never interacted with an insurance company. "We're sorry, but your policy doesn't cover that."
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Feb 14, 2024 07:38
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This is going to emphasize just how much of a nerd I am, but I can't help thinking of the discussion in Scott Lynch's fantasy novel The Lies of Locke Lamora about how a wizard's guild got started: quote:'One night a powerful sorcerer knocks on the door of a less-powerful sorcerer. "I'm starting an exclusive guild," he says. "Join me now or I'll blast you out of your loving boots right where you stand." So naturally the second mage says...' This guy's system won't just end up with warlords, it'll end up with a cartel of them.
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Feb 14, 2024 08:45
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Subway™: Stay Fresh or Freeze©, dirtbag!
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Feb 14, 2024 10:01
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At this point I can't tell whether that account is just taking the piss or is run by a 15-year-old https://twitter.com/TheYcOrg/status/1757340926408634737 Perestroika fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Feb 14, 2024 |
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Feb 14, 2024 12:24
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Caros posted:https://x.com/TheYcOrg/status/1757322958958117304?s=20 I am sorry but is this a parody. It reads like a news story in cyberpunk 2077 or that old lore fluff in the cyberpunk pen and paper about how two private EMS companies get in a street battle because one of the companies is poaching clients after a gang fight.
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Feb 14, 2024 12:57
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Been seeing bickering between libertarians that are consistently insisting "no government gets to dictate where I can go" regarding immigration policies and the libertarians that want to treat sovereign borders as though they are private property and think property owners should just be mowing down migrants every chance they get. Though even the latter runs into the Donut Bear problem - whose to say some sympathetic owners let migrants pass through peacefully since technically no one can tell that owner what to do with their land? And how unlimited are the resources of other property owners in preventing migrants from trespassing?
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Feb 14, 2024 13:18
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Perestroika posted:At this point I can't tell whether that account is just taking the piss or is run by a 15-year-old I was about to post this, but you beat me. Just the perfect cherry on top of it. "Yeah, I know this doesn't resist the gentlest analysis, so, um, I'm not acepting notes from anyone not 200% into the cult!"
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Feb 14, 2024 13:23
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You can smell the libertarians through the screen lol https://twitter.com/aufhebenenjoyer/status/1757465467315269819?t=ETbGjJEn_3QTLz0NdGZdzg&s=19
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Feb 14, 2024 13:27
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Panfilo posted:Been seeing bickering between libertarians that are consistently insisting "no government gets to dictate where I can go" regarding immigration policies and the libertarians that want to treat sovereign borders as though they are private property and think property owners should just be mowing down migrants every chance they get. Depends on which brand of racism they subscribe to, I suppose. Clarste posted:Ah, of course, so since war is financially untenable, everyone will immediately declare war on any rogue company for no particular reason. Naturally. This reminds me that libertarians and the whole the government has the monopoly on violence then?! and, while I get why that is a scary prospect, I am not sure allowing a bunch of mafia's having the ability to use violence to control me is much better.
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Feb 14, 2024 14:08
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Staluigi posted:Subway™: Stay Fresh or Freeze©, dirtbag! Reminds me of (I think) a bit in the New Yorker called "Libertarian Police Force" where the main character goes "Home Depot presents: The Police!"
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Feb 14, 2024 14:40
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Pretty sure it's from the same thing (i could be wrong though)
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Feb 14, 2024 15:32
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Angry_Ed posted:Reminds me of (I think) a bit in the New Yorker called "Libertarian Police Force" where the main character goes "Home Depot presents: The Police!" https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department A classic, especially because libertarians bite unironically at some bits of it.
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