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Jack Trades posted:Random factors won't create a regular pattern and if they're just worse than they think then shouldn't the matchmaker simply put them on a lower rank that will actually result in roughly 50/50 games and not win/lose streaks? a streak of 4 wins followed by a streak of 4 losses is 50/50, hth
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Feb 14, 2024 16:06
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toadee posted:a streak of 4 wins followed by a streak of 4 losses is 50/50, hth So is a streak of 100 losses followed by a streak of 100 wins.
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Feb 14, 2024 16:07
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if you flipped a coin 1000 times you'd also see lots of long streaks of just heads and just tails, it's just how randomness works
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Feb 14, 2024 16:08
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Jack Trades posted:So is a streak of 100 losses followed by a streak of 100 wins. That outcome is literally exactly as likely as going win/lose/win/lose/win/lose for 200 games
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Feb 14, 2024 16:10
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Jack Trades posted:So is a streak of 100 losses followed by a streak of 100 wins. I just opened up a "random coin flipper" website and told it to flip 100 coins and there's 2 streaks of 5+ heads or tails in there, including a streak of 7 tails. Is the universe broken?
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Feb 14, 2024 16:14
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Scrub-Niggurath posted:if you flipped a coin 1000 times you'd also see lots of long streaks of just heads and just tails, it's just how randomness works           I flipped 1000 coins. There's one 5-and-5 streak and one 7-and-7 streak. Hardly what I would call "lots of long streaks".
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Feb 14, 2024 16:15
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Jack Trades posted:
lmao my man I don't think you get it
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Feb 14, 2024 16:18
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toadee posted:lmao my man I don't think you get it Cool story bro.
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Feb 14, 2024 16:19
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Winning and losing + staying at the same rank means you're roughly where you should be. You've been complaining about the same poo poo for years, despite hundreds of people going "yeah sure whatever" and grinding bronze to whatever rank they're supposed to be at every single month. Coin flip's aren't even accounting for how tilted you get when you get close to your peak and someone who's better keeps doming you.
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Feb 14, 2024 16:29
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dogstile posted:Winning and losing + staying at the same rank means you're roughly where you should be. You've been complaining about the same poo poo for years, despite hundreds of people going "yeah sure whatever" and grinding bronze to whatever rank they're supposed to be at every single month. If I just sucked then I wouldn't be getting streaks of boring steamrolls. Also I can't have been complaining about it for "years" because OW2 haven't been out for even 2 years yet and it was not a problem that existed in OW1.
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Feb 14, 2024 16:32
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If you don't think people complained about overwatch 1 streaks you either didn't play or should get your memory checked. This happens in literally every multiplayer game when you hit your expected rank. "I don't think it should work that way" is a lovely argument that you're sticking to because you don't understand matchmaking.
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Feb 14, 2024 16:38
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Jack Trades posted:If I just sucked then I wouldn't be getting streaks of boring steamrolls. What are you talking about? Streaks happened in OW1 too. Did you forget or did you just put on your rose colored glasses?
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Feb 14, 2024 16:38
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I think the fundamental issue is that there is still no vision for the game? Like, what is the ideal match of OW supposed to look like if the teams are evenly matched? On top of that you throw hero switching and ult resets and it’s just a mess of a game. It has characters that don’t need to aim, characters that need to get headshots, and on top of that the awful map design. It’s a miracle people can find fun in it because I hate this patch.
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Feb 14, 2024 16:38
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dogstile posted:If you don't think people complained about overwatch 1 streaks you either didn't play or should get your memory checked. Rawrbomb posted:What are you talking about? Streaks happened in OW1 too. Did you forget or did you just put on your rose colored glasses? I kind of wish more people would read what they're replying to first. Jack Trades posted:My match history had a clear pattern of lose streak - win streak - lose streak - win streak and after of a few months of that I got completely sick of it and I haven't played since. I wasn't complaining about streaks. I was complaining about consistent sequential streaks. Those were absolutely not happening in OW1. I was even keeping track of my stats on one of those stat aggregation websites at the time, for fun, so I'm pretty sure I would've noticed.
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Feb 14, 2024 16:42
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Lord Packinham posted:I think the fundamental issue is that there is still no vision for the game? Like, what is the ideal match of OW supposed to look like if the teams are evenly matched? In every single multiplayer game there are stomps and streaks, because that's just the nature of multiplayer games. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply remembering a game they had great fun with super fondly because it was all fresh and new to them/they had a great friend group to engage with it/they were younger and less jaded/etc.
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Feb 14, 2024 16:43
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Lord Packinham posted:I think the fundamental issue is that there is still no vision for the game? Like, what is the ideal match of OW supposed to look like if the teams are evenly matched? There is absolutely a vision for PVP, its a hero based team shooter. Ideal games were like OWL, and I would have to imagine a lot of the games in t500/GM. There is such a huge difference in this game at each skill level. GM games look wildly different, compared to middle of the road. How the team moves, picks heros, and engages in both their offense/defense. Lord Packinham posted:It has characters that don’t need to aim What are you on about for this? Jack Trades posted:I kind of wish more people would read what they're replying to first. Maybe not to you, but people whined and bitched about it all the same back in OW1. Not you != isn't happening.
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Feb 14, 2024 16:44
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I feel like most rebuttals are, “no, you are wrong I have fun with OW,” which is fine. I’m just saying that they have been ping-ponging between like a bunch of different ideas. They launched OW2 and said hero switching isn’t important, like what consistency are you talking about? Also, when I said don’t aim, I meant more in not needing to score headshots.
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Feb 14, 2024 17:07
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Jack Trades posted:
goldmine
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Feb 14, 2024 17:10
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Jack Trades posted:I wasn't complaining about streaks. I was complaining about consistent sequential streaks. These happened too. It's not that we don't understand your argument, we just think your argument is stupid. I also kept track of stats, you're not the only one, that poo poo happened.
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Feb 14, 2024 17:11
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No matter what anyone says, if you play better than your rank, you rank up. Bouncing around your true rank is normal. Going +200/-200 is normal. +200 is way harder matches than -200. It is easy to consider something a stomp because it is out of your control to carry, but close matches can still be unwinnable. Close in terms of SR distribution doesn't account for a lot of variables. Those include playing into the hard counter of your main, playing on a map that is bad for your main, playing with a healing setup that is bad for your main, someone being drunk or high or tired or coming off a winning streak. These go for anyone on your team. I don't see how anyone can read these other patterns in the tea leaves.
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Feb 14, 2024 18:32
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Lord Packinham posted:Also, when I said don’t aim, I meant more in not needing to score headshots.
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Feb 14, 2024 18:38
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Rawrbomb posted:That's quite reductive though. Everyone that has a lower mechanical demand for precision aiming, has a whole host of different issues to content with, ontop of still requiring the manual dexterity to aim in general. There are no heros in this game where you press button and win without any thoughts. You can tell at a glance who’s still spending money on this game lmao
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Feb 14, 2024 18:46
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Rawrbomb posted:That's quite reductive though. Everyone that has a lower mechanical demand for precision aiming, has a whole host of different issues to content with, ontop of still requiring the manual dexterity to aim in general. There are no heros in this game where you press button and win without any thoughts. Before the hitbox changes i'd say this was pretty true for moira and sym at low ranks. Release brig too, actually. Anyone remember that one brig main who went from career gold to masters after she released to show how busted she was?
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Feb 14, 2024 19:10
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SadisTech posted:
This demo was who PvE would have catered to. PvE could have given them a gear treadmill with load outs broken enough to give them a feeling of rudimentary competence, so why not buy some pretty skins for Widowmaker?
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Feb 14, 2024 19:10
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the hitbox changes were also likely meant to help out the better players in the game so that sustained dps was more balanced with burst damage and to indirectly nerf heals by making damage easier to land. i don't think it was just a new player change. overwatch was by far the hardest game to aim at targets in the entire market b/c of the instant acceleration, small hitbox sizes, and intentional omission of ads/sprint mechanics which results in much faster strafing speeds. gm players struggle to consistently aim at rapidly ad strafing targets. controller can be balanced by having its own aim assist and hitbox rulesets. they already had special turret rulesets in the past.
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Feb 14, 2024 20:18
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Jack Trades posted:
lmao please make a probability and statistics thread instead of making GBS threads up this one
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Feb 14, 2024 20:51
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dogstile posted:Before the hitbox changes i'd say this was pretty true for moira and sym at low ranks. Sym hasn't been good in that way since OW1. In OW1, I could Sextuple teams of players like nothing on her (through diamond and low masters), because she specifically countered non-proactive tanks harder than anything else in the game. In OW2, it literally doesn't matter if you charge your beam to full, tanks will never die and just clap you. She has gotten slightly better since release in OW2, but I maintain that she still doesn't really have the niche use of "gently caress idiots who can't tank for poo poo" because they changed what tanking is.
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Feb 14, 2024 20:59
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pharah changes seem good if nothing else
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Feb 14, 2024 21:47
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she feels unplayable now to me tbh
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Feb 14, 2024 21:51
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pro perspective on how ungodly difficult it was to hit people before https://twitter.com/jakeow/status/1757696370205680091
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Feb 14, 2024 22:25
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even speaking from a casual perspective, landing shots on anything not roadhog sized was an enormous chore and contributed a lot to the sense of OW being a game about firing your gun at nothing a lot of the time. the only way i could get consistent accuracy against anyone AD strafing was to, like, track my shot and then immediately do a very small opposite direction flick before firing to try and average out my tracking with their left-right movement i do agree that movement acceleration is the better option, but that genie's been out of the bottle for 8 years now, so increased projectile size is probably the best compromise you're gonna get
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Feb 14, 2024 22:33
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dogstile posted:If you don't think people complained about overwatch 1 streaks you either didn't play or should get your memory checked. the fundamental complaint with pretty much every matchmaker ever isn't that they're broken it's that they work way tf too well. elo systems are savage and they will incredibly effectively distill your ability to win games down to an exact number that is virtually never the number someone would self-select. it owns and is hilarious (I know you know this) Kaysette posted:lmao that's an all timer of an elohell post lol
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Feb 14, 2024 22:43
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Great, people are landing more shots. Now if only we had a second tank, to make teams feel more balanced.Herstory Begins Now posted:the fundamental complaint with pretty much every matchmaker ever isn't that they're broken it's that they work way tf too well. elo systems are savage and they will incredibly effectively distill your ability to win games down to an exact number that is virtually never the number someone would self-select. I think the problem with nearly every matchmaker in these elo-based games is that there are too many variables, and different players fail for different reasons. At the same time, it's very rare that games have a large enough player pool to divert players into separate pools, supposing there was some kind of more complex algorithm that could be developed to allocate players into pools where their particular skill set will work better with players in those pools. So even if you could develop some sort of system to increase the quality of games (IE, making games closer to "even" so to speak, and resulting in fewer stomps), it would increase queue times. Companies like Blizz will ALMOST NEVER make any concession that ends up increasing queue time, even just a little, even if it improves the matchmaker. Conversely, they will always also make changes that increase the complexity of the problem (IE queuing in groups, or trying to balance games as if they were zero-sum equations rather than suitably matched to the individual player) if it adds to convenience for the average player. In short, the matchmaker would be better if: 1) It worked out individual traits of player skill on a larger scale and used the additional information to better construct teams (might have worked in the golden era of OW, but probably not feasible now due to declining player numbers, and the system might be tough to design, would need to use AI models, etc). 2) The system were simplified to always mean 1 person, solo ladder, no exceptions (not gonna happen, people wanna play with their friends, Blizz wants people to play with their friends). 3) The system sacrificed queue times for quality (also not gonna happen, would lead to even larger problems at higher skill levels where player numbers are few). BabyRyoga fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Feb 14, 2024 |
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Feb 14, 2024 22:44
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I guess people expect a matchmaker to always put them in a game they can win if they perceive that they have a good personal game and play to the best of their ability. Unfortunately, that will never be the case and a large number of games are out of your control. Especially when you are at or above your real rank.
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Feb 14, 2024 23:03
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comedyblissoption posted:the hitbox changes were also likely meant to help out the better players in the game so that sustained dps was more balanced with burst damage and to indirectly nerf heals by making damage easier to land. i don't think it was just a new player change. That had been pretty much the #1 complaint with OW going back to the beta from anyone with any understanding of fps mechanics because it just feels so loving bad to try to aim at instant accel targets. if anything it was a complaint far more common at the top end than the bottom, too. the current fix is dumb in an overwrought way when they literally could just add a bit of interia, but it will be effective because literally anything is better than instant accel movement. in fairness it probably is an incredible can of worms to go back and try to rework all of OW's movement code, so changing proj size numbers likely is an understandable way of effecting basically the same change on the game without breaking all the movement tech. And yeah off hand idk any other serious fps that has zero inertia movement anymore, it was insane that it lasted as long as it did in OW. Any time you have zero intertia movement you get insanely poo poo ad-strafe/movement metas that look stupid and aren't really fun for anyone but they're way too good not to do. BabyRyoga posted:Great, people are landing more shots. Now if only we had a second tank, to make teams feel more balanced. I mean it's distilling an entire players repertoire of skills and abilities down to a single 'how likely are they to win against various odds' # and yeah no wonder people feel that it oversimplifies things, that's the entire point of it: to simplify a players performance and how winning they are down to a single number. People who don't embrace that are always going to hate it. There's no solution to that that people won't hate as long as, like, 90% of people will self-evaluate as more skilled than the mm will evaluate them as. Doubly so when most people will under-evaluate their team mates. I don't think that 1 or more people or any of those other things really matter, as games very consistently manage to design very good mmr/elo systems regardless of how people play, eg solo vs group or w/e else. Good players rank higher, bad players rank lower. That's the constant of any well-designed mmr system. People just don't like that the mmr system says that they're silver or w/e The only real exception to that is when games start including elements in the ranking that can be grinded with time invested instead of by winning, at which point all the ratings are garbage and meaningless, even though they'll suddenly be way more popular. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 14, 2024 |
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Feb 14, 2024 23:08
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Yes, there are games that are COMPLETELY unwinnable no matter how good you do. This is why you have content creators that are like top 100 in every role in every season who still do any number of variations of unranked to GM and still manage to sometimes lose games in plat and diamond, although it happens rarely. Closer to your actual rank, maybe its like a 20-30% chance on a bad day that you get a game that is completely unwinable, and a 20-30% chance that you get a game that is unlosable. Related, smurfing is also a pretty huge problem that would need to be eliminated as a factor here to have the perfect matchmaker, and it's kinda strange that Blizz hasn't yet done so after almost a decade of OW. I think they realize that there is always a sizable number of content creators with thousands of live viewers and hundreds of thousands of video views who essentially make almost all of their content smurfing and ruining games, and don't want to lose those people.
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Feb 14, 2024 23:11
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comedyblissoption posted:pro perspective on how ungodly difficult it was to hit people before this tweet ends with him saying “hit markers give me dopamine I like more dopamine” so idk if that’s the most reliable take for your average OW player (It’s incredibly on brand for CoD player, mind)
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Feb 14, 2024 23:12
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played a few placement matches and playing Ana against any kind of vaguely competent Tracer is nightmarish. I had to swap to Moira just to stay alive long enough to be useful. EDIT: surprisingly the matchmaker was on point, all the matches were really close EDIT2: tank continues to be the "melts in seconds" role but only slightly more so than pre-patch. they get focused down, support can't heal enough to compensate. also lol at the enemy team's tank complaining about my DVA potg "you didn't do anything DVA" yeah apart from take massive amounts of space by dominating the highground on Numbani attack you piece of poo poo. that match was a draw too, tank was probably better than me but had no answer for DVA. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Feb 14, 2024 |
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Feb 14, 2024 23:19
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Sandwolf posted:this tweet ends with him saying “hit markers give me dopamine I like more dopamine” so idk if that’s the most reliable take for your average OW player what
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Feb 14, 2024 23:22
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Tracer feels like a menace until you switch to Hanzo, because holy poo poo it's genuinely hard to miss her head up close now
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Feb 14, 2024 23:26
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