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Not making accusations or trying to start another erect floral jizm melee, but I think the threat of Trump is having a large effect on the way people are engaging with the horrifying genocide. If you've invested yourself in ensuring Trump isn't in power, Bidens participation in this is let's say supremely inconvenient. And people outside the US are (rightfully) concerned about Trump taking power again.* America sucks, our complicity and relevance to world events is typically gross. Little wonder it tends to dominate discussions. I think dealing in facts and coming to some sort of truth (or at least discussing and debating somewhere near it) is good, it's what D&D is for. But surely it's also correct to reaffirm, constantly, how awful this is. I've seen angry teenagers play GTA more ethically than Israel is acting in Gaza. *I think this factors in people saying, both here and in real life, "you only just started caring about this", as if being against genocide is downstream of the election.
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Feb 13, 2024 16:16
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By the way, what nucleic acids said is correct, the UNRWA funding ban is still in the text of the Senate amendment withiht even a provision for reversing it after an investigation. I went and checked myself as even the latest reporting from AJE didn't seem to mention it, though I could've missed it. https://www.congress.gov/amendment/118th-congress/senate-amendment/1388 To be absolutely clear before anyone replies, I think the funds never show have been paused at all, I only phrased it that way to point out the extent of the cruelty.
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Feb 13, 2024 16:22
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Kalit posted:Israel running out of tank weapons and Israel wanting to have a large stockpile in case of shortages/US stops supplying them/escalation of war if someone decides to invade them/etc are very different I'm sure they are. Perhaps the US can test just how much Israel doesn't need their help by simply withdrawing it.
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Feb 13, 2024 16:24
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Why do you think the US is supplying Israel with thousands of tank rounds if it didn't need them? It absolves people from making any demands. "Even if you cut the cash and ammo pipeline it'll still happen, so why waste breath and credibility annoying our government about it?"
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Feb 13, 2024 16:31
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Kagrenak posted:This FT article covers both "who makes Israeli weapons which cause large scale damage" (hint it's the US) and "be horrified at Israel's genocide" at the same time. I hadn't seen the statistics comparing the extent of building destruction to that of German cities in WW2.
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Feb 13, 2024 18:55
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Kagrenak posted:By the way, what nucleic acids said is correct, the UNRWA funding ban is still in the text of the Senate amendment withiht even a provision for reversing it after an investigation. I went and checked myself as even the latest reporting from AJE didn't seem to mention it, though I could've missed it. It's really great that Democrats are going to let bad faith actors ACORN vital humanitarian aid to Palestinians, guess we have to hope the freedom caucus saves Democrats from themselves again
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Feb 13, 2024 18:58
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rscott posted:It's really great that Democrats are going to let bad faith actors ACORN vital humanitarian aid to Palestinians, guess we have to hope the freedom caucus saves Democrats from themselves again
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Feb 13, 2024 19:02
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cat botherer posted:The Dems as a whole want UNRWA to be defunded. They're more than happy to play along with the IDF's nonsense. It'd be nice to have a real opposition party in the US
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Feb 13, 2024 19:47
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Kalit posted:First of all, that $17bn didn’t get approved. It got soundly rejected and had no chance of passing: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...9f-cfffec3b0000 On the very same page I posted some details about Israel's munition usage as the question was already asked very recently. Marenghi posted:Also from another source So the source you say "doesn't say anything" quite clearly states they received 14,000 shells from Biden, almost double their entire 155mm shell usage during Operation Cast Lead. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Feb 13, 2024 |
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Feb 13, 2024 20:06
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Marenghi posted:On the very same page I posted some details about Israel's munition usage as the question was already asked very recently. Can you please state my entire post when using quotes? I clearly stated: Kalit posted:doesn’t say anything about Israel running out of tank weapons if Biden hadn’t sold them Which is not even close to disputed in your claim or any source that has been posted thus far
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Feb 14, 2024 02:04
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Kalit posted:Israel running out of tank weapons and Israel wanting to have a large stockpile in case of shortages/US stops supplying them/escalation of war if someone decides to invade them/etc are very different
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Feb 14, 2024 02:24
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Defunding terrorist organizations is good actually. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 14, 2024 03:13
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Unfortunately the IDF isn't getting defunded any time soon
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Feb 14, 2024 04:14
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386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:What? If they’re the same commodities, then they literally come from the same stockpiles, and they are literally the same thing. How is “we’ll run out of missiles in the next month because of no imports from the USA” and “we’ll run out of missiles in the next 3 years because of no imports from global shortages, countries all refused to sell us weapons, and/or we got invaded” even close to the same thing? Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Feb 14, 2024 |
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Feb 14, 2024 04:22
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Kalit posted:How is “we’ll run out of missiles in the next month because of no imports from the USA” and “we’ll run out of missiles in the next 3 years because of no imports from global shortages, countries all refused to sell us weapons, and/or we got invaded” even close to the same thing? if they were worried about it happening in the next three years Biden wouldnt be bypassing congress to express ship them.
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Feb 14, 2024 04:32
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punishedkissinger posted:if they were worried about it happening in the next three years Biden wouldnt be bypassing congress to express ship them. You don't think it's possible that Bibi might overstate the importance? As any person in power might do to ensure there is literally no chance to run out of weapons in the worst possible scenario?
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Feb 14, 2024 04:44
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Kalit posted:You don't think it's possible that Bibi might overstate the importance? As any person in power might do to ensure there is literally no chance to run out of weapons in the worst possible scenario? You think the US has 0 idea what Israel has and doesn't have and simply jumps when ordered to by Israel? e: to hold the opinion you have, you must believe that the US will just go for any old poo poo. It'll expend all sorts of political capital for Israel's nice-to-have list and not think at all about whether it's even arguably necessary. The natural conclusion of your line of thinking is that Israel has a dangerous stranglehold on American politics. And that's disastrous. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Feb 14, 2024 |
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Feb 14, 2024 11:47
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Kalit posted:You don't think it's possible that Bibi might overstate the importance? As any person in power might do to ensure there is literally no chance to run out of weapons in the worst possible scenario? sure sounds like they arent capable of producing those munitions on their own if they need the US to express ship them three years in advance
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Feb 14, 2024 13:03
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Kalit posted:You don't think it's possible that Bibi might overstate the importance? As any person in power might do to ensure there is literally no chance to run out of weapons in the worst possible scenario? "You don't think it's possible that" is the exact way people argue when they don't have any evidence but really want you to do the legwork of disproving them. It's possible that Netanyahu overstated the importance of the weapons the US hands Israel. It's possible that Biden got hoodwinked into funding a genocide. It's possible that despite Biden being "Israel's best friend", this time he got tricked. It's possible that he has no advisors who can tell him if he's being lied to when Netanyahu comes begging. Does that make it a more likely explanation than Biden just giving Israel weapons to do a genocide with because he's a Zionist piece of poo poo, and always has been, as evidenced by his entire political career up to this point? And that Israel actually needs the weapons they're being sent, because why else would Biden be rushing them through when Ukraine so obviously and urgently needs whatever surplus the US can provide, so shoveling more bombs into Israeli warehouses instead, to sit unused, would be an insane thing for the US to do. No. Esran fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Feb 14, 2024 |
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Feb 14, 2024 21:29
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Kalit posted:You don't think it's possible that Bibi might overstate the importance? As any person in power might do to ensure there is literally no chance to run out of weapons in the worst possible scenario? Oh, just asking questions. I see. Makes me think anything is possible if you just ask if it's possible. Proof or evidence isn't really needed.
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Feb 14, 2024 22:42
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If Biden administration's material support for Bibi's genocide is crucial, that means the Biden administration is significantly responsible for said genocide. Therefore, the Biden administration's material support must not be crucial for the continued genocide.
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Feb 14, 2024 22:58
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Hong XiuQuan posted:You think the US has 0 idea what Israel has and doesn't have and simply jumps when ordered to by Israel? The US absolutely asks how high when Israel says jump. Anyone who has been paying attention to the history of our alliance should know that’s true. But back to the specific instance, why would the US care enough to know if Israel is 100% truthful or not? They’re selling weapons to an ally. Which, in general, is a positive thing in the eyes of the government and most of the populace.
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Feb 14, 2024 23:52
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Look if Biden didn't give Israel shells they'd just buy them on the open market, from Europe you definitely don't follow the lead of the US, or from the Global South who love Israel.
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Feb 15, 2024 00:19
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Marenghi posted:Look if Biden didn't give Israel shells they'd just buy them on the open market, from Europe you definitely don't follow the lead of the US, or from the Global South who love Israel. Shells, specifically 155mm artillery, seem to be the only thing that they may not need the US for. Elbit seems to produce quite a lot of their 155mm ammo domestically and is expanding capacity for export. But given all the other evidence of their dependence on the US for many other types of munitions I'm not sure why Kalit is still going on like they don't depend on our stocks. Even if the transfers are simply to "ensure their capabilities" or whatever in the case of escalation, munitions are basically fungible. If they had less to use before reaching a point they no longer have a credible strategy for dealing with escalation, they would be forced to de-intensify their slaughter.
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Feb 15, 2024 00:44
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Kalit posted:The US absolutely asks how high when Israel says jump. Anyone who has been paying attention to the history of our alliance should know that’s true. Why would we care if our weapons were used for bad things like murdering innocents or committing genocide? Seriously?
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Feb 15, 2024 00:57
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The Sean posted:Why would we care if our weapons were used for bad things like murdering innocents or committing genocide? Seriously? I assume I wouldn't need to state the obvious, but I will. Political opinions here in D&D, or even on SA in general, are much further left than the general populace 
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Feb 15, 2024 01:54
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The Sean posted:Why would we care if our weapons were used for bad things like murdering innocents or committing genocide? Seriously? Kalit posted:I assume I wouldn't need to state the obvious, but I will. Political opinions here in D&D, or even on SA in general, are much further left than the general populace Those both seem to be true. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Feb 15, 2024 |
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Feb 15, 2024 03:25
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BRJurgis posted:Those both seem to be true. From the tone of exasperation of The Sean's statement (i.e. "Seriously?"), they seemed to object to my statement. Which is why I responded with that reminder.
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Feb 15, 2024 03:37
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Kalit posted:I assume I wouldn't need to state the obvious, but I will. Political opinions here in D&D, or even on SA in general, are much further left than the general populace I'm gonna need to see a source on this.
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Feb 15, 2024 04:10
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hadji murad posted:I'm gonna need to see a source on this. If you want to crunch the numbers on who here thinks we're spending too much on funding for Israel military aid, for a single example, go for it. Especially within D&D. Honestly, I'm too lazy to spend that much time on something that I am confident in. As I would be baffled if it isn't significantly higher than the general populace of the US, which in November, was at only 31%: https://news.gallup.com/poll/545045/americans-back-israel-military-action-gaza.aspx  E: Trying to find a more up to date source, even in December, 45% of the populace stated they want to send more military aid to Israel: https://poll.qu.edu/images/polling/us/us12202023_uopw25.pdf: quote:More than two months after the October 7th Hamas terrorist attack on Israel, voters are split on whether the United States should send more military aid to Israel for their efforts in the war with Hamas, with 45 percent supporting it and 46 percent opposing it. Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Feb 15, 2024 |
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Feb 15, 2024 04:21
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Half of US adults say Israel has gone too far, poll shows - AP News https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1 That ended 15 days ago when 50% of US adults thought israel was going too far https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/feb/15/israel-gaza-war-australia-canada-new-zealand-warning-attack-rafah-hamas-palestine And now even the other allies to this are getting cold feet. The only people who want this to continue are republicans, Joe Biden and israel
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Feb 15, 2024 06:40
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Disapproval for the Gaza campaign is certainly growing, but the notion of cutting Israel loose would still be very unpopular in the US. See the full results for that poll: https://apnorc.org/projects/half-believe-israels-military-response-in-gaza-has-gone-too-far/ 37% of respondents see the US as too supportive of Israel (compared to 57% who like at least the current level of support). This page also notes that on the 'is Israel an ally' question the Gaza campaign has mostly just undone the shift that the initial Hamas attack caused in favour of Israel, and that the US is largely back where it was before. It would be interesting to see whether the same applies to the other questions but those don't seem to have been asked earlier.
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Feb 15, 2024 08:54
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skipmyseashells posted:Half of US adults say Israel has gone too far, poll shows - AP News https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1 Is this in response to me? If so, I can guarantee that much more than 50% of us in D&D think Israel has gone too far. Which ties into my point of D&D being much more left than the general populace.
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Feb 15, 2024 10:23
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I'm not really sure what relevance that point has, overall? Even if you think this thread and elsewhere is a bunch of anti war pussies it's not really germaine to whether the US has a strategic intelligence reason to know what allies are using their military resources to do and what reserves they have, particularly as Israel is meant to be a bulwark against Iranian influence in the region (amongst other nebulous goals).
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Feb 15, 2024 11:09
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e: nm
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Feb 15, 2024 15:29
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Kalit posted:Is this in response to me? If so, I can guarantee that much more than 50% of us in D&D think Israel has gone too far. Which ties into my point of D&D being much more left than the general populace. Are there even posters still arguing israel hasnt gone too far yet Not a trap question or any similar antics, just been busy and havent chanced across anything like that for a while So i don't know what you could measure pro israel here as a percentage
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Feb 15, 2024 15:42
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BRJurgis posted:Those both seem to be true. Kalit posted:From the tone of exasperation of The Sean's statement (i.e. "Seriously?"), they seemed to object to my statement. Which is why I responded with that reminder. Being "further left" is an overall description of a bundle of issues. We are talking about this one issue here and as others have provided sources for, "the populace" isn't overwhelmingly in favor of Israel's recent actions with the weapons we're giving them. And the response you gave didn't address the killing of innocents or committing genocide. Just something about political opinions. The Sean fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Feb 15, 2024 |
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Feb 15, 2024 16:34
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Israel bombed some more hospitals, and there is some mind shattering footage going around social media right now.
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Feb 15, 2024 16:55
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The Sean posted:Being "further left" is an overall description of a bundle of issues. even the poll that Kalit posted has shown a significant shift in the most recent iteration https://news.gallup.com/poll/548084/americans-divided-involvement-middle-east.aspx That's still only polling from December, so I cant imagine the brazen genocide isn't turning more and more people.
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Feb 15, 2024 17:02
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Nucleic Acids posted:Israel bombed some more hospitals, and there is some mind shattering footage going around social media right now. I'm honestly surprised there are any hospitals left to bomb at this point.
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Feb 15, 2024 17:03
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