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I wonder how many elements in The Hobbit+LotR could be considered knockoffs of something grander within the Legendarium. The Arkenstone's the Great Value Silmaril, Sauron and Morgoth, Aragorn and Arwen vs Beren and Luthien, etc.
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Feb 16, 2024 13:44
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It really is pretty funny thinking about how much of that is him consciously writing things that "rhyme", and how much is him really being out of ideas having used them all up already in The Hobbit and unpublished Silm as he complained to Allen & Unwin when they asked him to write a sequel so they could start the IP iteration machine. Particularly thinking about the "Men in Númenor -> Gondor is really just a recapitulation of Elves in Valinor -> Beleriand" which could go either way Data Graham fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Feb 16, 2024 |
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Feb 16, 2024 14:13
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Arkenstone is Tolkien’s attempt to modernize a real OE word “eorcnanstana” (“precious/holy stone”; Tolkien interpreted the first element as related to the rare pre-Christian magic word “erce”, which Christian OE/Latin speakers glossed as “sanctus”) which he had previously used to translate “Silmaril” into OE for the Lost Tales stuff. So, bearing in mind his later “translation conventions”, I would say that the Arkenstone is not a Silmaril, but it is called by the same name that the common speech used for Silmarils, whatever that was. At the time of writing it was probably more like a self-parody or topsy-turvy version of the Silmarils, with greedy dwarves in place of tragic elves as rightful owners, a self-regarding dragon in stead of the devil, and a dapper midget taking on the role of Beren.
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Feb 16, 2024 14:14
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I've always liked the idea that the Arkenstone is, in fact, a Silmaril but everyone in a position to keep up the Feanorian oath really wants it not to be and so pretends it isn't. This is entirely unsupported by the text but I like it.
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Feb 16, 2024 14:24
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OPAONI posted:I've always liked the idea that the Arkenstone is, in fact, a Silmaril but everyone in a position to keep up the Feanorian oath really wants it not to be and so pretends it isn't. The one that fell into the bowels of the earth specifically.
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Feb 16, 2024 14:25
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As a kid when I first learned about the existence of The Lord of the Rings (via coming across a synopsis of the LotR SNES game, lol), I was already aghast that "they" were getting away with such a blatant ripoff or retread of The Hobbit. This Frodo is obviously a knockoff Bilbo, and then the quest proceeds the same way pretty much? The wizard guy makes him leave the shire and hike east and then they hang out with Elrond? Come on. Then I learned more about Lord of the Rings and realized that no it's really its own full story, and then I learned even more and realized that no it isn't
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Feb 16, 2024 14:28
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The one that fell into the bowels of the earth specifically. Yes exactly.
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Feb 16, 2024 14:49
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Way far away from Beleriand. Picturing it getting bounced all around by all the Valar as they chase it across the floor and it keeps getting kicked and ricocheting hundreds of miles as soon as anyone reaches for it like in a Pixar movie or something (what scene am I thinking of, fff)
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Feb 16, 2024 15:39
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The Ice Age rat-squirrel?
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Feb 16, 2024 15:43
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Oh yeah lol, that's one good exemplar. Probably hundreds of others Something where a bunch of spies are all grabbing for a gun and it keeps skittering across the floor. Maybe that new Mission Impossible movie
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Feb 16, 2024 15:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The one that fell into the bowels of the earth specifically. Maedhros: "Fell?"
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Feb 16, 2024 15:45
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Data Graham posted:Way far away from Beleriand. It's like the Ring. It wanted to be found.
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Feb 16, 2024 15:52
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Edit Confusing movie and book quotes as one is wont to do
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Feb 16, 2024 15:58
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Data Graham posted:Way far away from Beleriand. Dong feng song dao shou yi ding hui bao Anything goes!
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Feb 16, 2024 20:43
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Dong feng song dao shou yi ding hui bao  The Oath claims another.
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Feb 16, 2024 20:46
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Oh yeah god dammit
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Feb 16, 2024 22:29
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Arc Hammer posted:
Maglor is still unaccounted for, you know. She'd better watch her back.
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Feb 16, 2024 22:55
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YaketySass posted:I wonder how many elements in The Hobbit+LotR could be considered knockoffs of something grander within the Legendarium. The Arkenstone's the Great Value Silmaril, Sauron and Morgoth, Aragorn and Arwen vs Beren and Luthien, etc. Cory Olson has made this point in his lectures (I think it was his course in the Silmarillion?) And makes the comparison of how Christians to the same thing in the "New Testament" aping stories from the Torah.
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Feb 17, 2024 00:10
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After going through the Silmarillion, reading the part of the Hobbit where Bilbo first meets smaug hits a bit different. Bilbo just poo poo talking Glaurungs great grandson
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Feb 17, 2024 05:19
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Diamonds On MY Fish posted:Cory Olson has made this point in his lectures (I think it was his course in the Silmarillion?) And makes the comparison of how Christians to the same thing in the "New Testament" aping stories from the Torah. I posted him talking about it this page! Or maybe last page idk euphronius fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 05:22
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Diamonds On MY Fish posted:Cory Olson has made this point in his lectures (I think it was his course in the Silmarillion?) And makes the comparison of how Christians to the same thing in the "New Testament" aping stories from the Torah. Meanwhile "Galilee" can be translated as "Shire," which is another layer of fun.
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Feb 17, 2024 05:31
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euphronius posted:I posted him talking about it this page!
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Feb 17, 2024 07:27
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Goddamn temple of doom whips
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Feb 17, 2024 16:25
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Goddamn temple of doom whips
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Feb 17, 2024 16:57
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Nessus posted:It’s Ke Huy Quans second finest film role! Yep, The Goonies is definitely a better movie.
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Feb 17, 2024 17:12
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That kid was my loving hero in the 80s. He whipped so much rear end.
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Feb 17, 2024 17:14
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CommonShore posted:That kid was my loving hero in the 80s. He whipped so much rear end. 
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Feb 17, 2024 17:25
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Zopotantor posted:Yep, The Goonies is definitely a better movie.
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Feb 17, 2024 19:05
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Nessus posted:I prefer his more recent work myself Wikipedia posted:In 2019 he was cast in a supporting role in the Netflix film Finding ʻOhana, released in 2021. Quan approached director Jude Weng after overhearing her describing the film as The Goonies meets Indiana Jones, in both of which Quan had appeared. yes, I know
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Feb 17, 2024 19:28
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Zopotantor posted:Oh, just more of the same.
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Feb 18, 2024 00:00
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Listening to the Mythgard series on Return of the Shadow and in the second episode he has one of those apparent double brain-farts where just as I'm getting over one thing he's inexplicably overlooking he gets something else egregiously wrong. He talks about the emergence of the term "The Shire" and how JRRT waffled between calling the region a "county" and a "shire", and Olsen couldn't think of a good explanation for why he settled on "shire", and neither could any of the attendees apparently, aside from "shire" being English and "county" being French. I'm like, how about that "county" implies a count? Implies nobility, an aristocracy? He really leaned away from any kind of social hierarchy as he developed hobbit-society, and it seems like this was clearly a part of that thought process. Anyway then a minute later he's talking about how hobbit naming schemes are simplistic like "The Water", "The Hill", "The Mountain" etc. And he says "Rivendell, which means a valley with a river in it" And I wanted to claw my eyes out. Noooooo that's not what "riven" means He even gives you the name "Imladris" and its etymology so you know what the "ris" part means aarrghh Anyway. Guess we all have off days, just seemed a bit much all at once lol
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Feb 18, 2024 05:07
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Does he not know what the word riven means.
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Feb 18, 2024 05:29
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Everyone knows "riven" means "come after myst".
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Feb 18, 2024 11:57
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Finished the Silmarillion last night, fun book!
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Feb 18, 2024 12:25
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Who the gently caress did Celebrimbor think Annatar was? Some unknown rando who happened to possess ringlore that Celebrimbor, the greatest smith of his age, wasn’t aware of? The other elf lords knew it was fishy and sent him on his way.
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Feb 18, 2024 19:38
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zoux posted:Who the gently caress did Celebrimbor think Annatar was? Some unknown rando who happened to possess ringlore that Celebrimbor, the greatest smith of his age, wasn’t aware of? The other elf lords knew it was fishy and sent him on his way. He should have clocked Annatar as one of the ainur at least. The way it’s described in LOTR you’d think elven eyes could spot a deity, even incognito. And it wouldn’t be unbelievable that the gods would send messengers to help out in Middle-earth, even a messenger who was a weirdo obsessed with magic rings. Thats pretty much what they eventually did to deal with the whole Sauron situation, after all This is probably discussed in the second age parts of Unfinished Tales somewhere.
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Feb 18, 2024 20:10
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He's just a guy who knows a lot about rings. Why do you gotta be so suspicious
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Feb 18, 2024 20:12
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Yeah just like Saruman was a master of ringlore. Nothing wrong with that, is there? That's like saying making powerful jewelry is a bad idea just because Fëanor did it once.
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Feb 18, 2024 20:15
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Arc Hammer posted:Yeah just like Saruman was a master of ringlore. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Has there been a time when making powerful jewelry actually worked out for anyone?
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Feb 18, 2024 21:11
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zoux posted:Who the gently caress did Celebrimbor think Annatar was? Some unknown rando who happened to possess ringlore that Celebrimbor, the greatest smith of his age, wasn’t aware of? The other elf lords knew it was fishy and sent him on his way. IIRC Annatar was calling himself “Aulendil” also (Aule fan) which is hilarious. He was presenting himself as an emissary from the Valar to help out the remaining elves in ME which was maybe plausible but some of the other elves were like, we’ve never heard of this guy. Motivated reasoning is a hell of a drug.
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Feb 18, 2024 21:21
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