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She should know what people in this turn know about it, though. Or at least what they've expressed about it. She's seen this conversation.
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Feb 17, 2024 09:55
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Jadis has perfect, eidetic knowledge of the script. Gog has been locked in the theater since opening day.
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Feb 17, 2024 16:13
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jadis knows everything. every single thing in every single loop. everything. EVERYTHING. *grabs you by the cheeks a la idiot sandwich and pulls you in* EVERYTHING. MEANS. EVERYTHING.
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Feb 17, 2024 16:18
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paranoid randroid posted:Gog's playing to an audience of one, ultimately. If a molecule of the Mass remembers, then all the Mass remembers. Jagganoth can't die, so he sort-of remembers I bet this show is playing on half the TV screens in the multiverse. The Gog Agog Show gets great ratings
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Feb 17, 2024 16:21
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Oxxidation posted:jadis knows everything. every single thing in every single loop. everything. EVERYTHING. *grabs you by the cheeks a la idiot sandwich and pulls you in* EVERYTHING. MEANS. EVERYTHING. no im pretty sure i know more than the author and would like to argue against it more!!!!one
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Feb 17, 2024 16:21
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Joe Slowboat posted:This conversation feels like absolute proof that’s a big fat lie. I feel like this is all going to culminate in a pagliucci joke and it will have been gogs express intent to culminate it that way. "But Allison, I am Gog-a-Gog!" Gravitas Shortfall posted:She's seen the wheel but we don't necessarily know whether she knows about the other turns. Some infinities are bigger than others. I brought this up a few pages back and one poster said that since this Gog iteration is in this loop and has knowledge of prior loops, this loop's Jadis' knows the prior loops through the transitive gog memories. I'm of the mindset that Jadis has "seen" everything from every position in this loop and has perfect recall because she is living all those viewpoints in one instant. But she has not experienced it from those viewpoints. Going on vacation versus watching every single slide of that vacation. Jadis knows that there is looping going on due to Gog, but Gog needs to remember prior loops for Jadis to be aware of what happened in those prior loops. Jadis cannot go through Gog's memories like a Rolodex to have perfect recall of prior loops, just whatever Gogs deigns to remember. If Gogs doesn't remember a funny joke she told 1800 loops ago in the current loop, but Gogs remembers in the next loop, the next loop Jadis will be aware of it only, because it "existed" in the current iteration. Of course all these words make it functionally useless to our dear readers because if it never comes up it is immaterial. It does raise the philosophical question, "If Gogs makes a funny joke in the next loop and our current omniscient voyeur is not there to endlessly experience it, does it make a sound?" (The answer is yes because it sounds like laughter because Gogs jokes are always funny, much like Pagliucci's are)
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Feb 17, 2024 16:25
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jadis’s omniscience is unbound by experience or causality but it’s also to a degree “tainted” by her personal experiences, however infinitesimal, because it means she’s eternally living through the single worst moment of her own life. gig’s got a standard memory, it’s just very very big and very very long
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Feb 17, 2024 16:31
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Your cool theory is wrong, Jadis has perfect knowledge of literally everything. She doesn't use it to help because she already knows what she's going to do and she knows she doesn't help. She doesn't even consider herself alive because she has no agency in her actions due to being locked by fate.
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Feb 17, 2024 16:31
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Your cool theory is wrong, Jadis has perfect knowledge of literally everything. She doesn't use it to help because she already knows what she's going to do and she knows she doesn't help. She doesn't even consider herself alive because she has no agency in her actions due to being locked by fate. This doesn't discount the idea that she may not have perfect knowledge of all the other loops because that is irrelevant apart from the way it impacts on this one. She has perfect knowledge of everything and how it's going to play out, this is absolutely true. It's just that "everything" keeps getting reset. In every loop that has a Jadis (and we don't know how many that is because we're not sure when it gets wound back to) she has full awareness about what is going to happen in that loop, including that it will end with a reset. Does she know about anything past that? Unclear. Or she does know absolutely everything in every loop, it's much of a muchness
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Feb 17, 2024 16:42
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Yeah you're making it way too complicated. Jadis doesn't need to know about the loops from Gog because she has perfect omniscience. It's a conceit that makes it so we know the things she says are all things that will absolutely happen as stated and cannot be circumvented. The interesting part is how Allison handles being told this information knowing what it means, and her answer to it. The details of how it works is less important, only that we know that it does. As far as Jadis goes, she knows every single terrible joke Gog will tell before she even tells it. In every loop that is and will ever be. That is Jadis' most terrible privilege. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 16:43
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FuturePastNow posted:I bet this show is playing on half the TV screens in the multiverse. The Gog Agog Show gets great ratings Just about everyone thinks Gog is playing a parody of Jadis with her memories of all past cycles giving her not-quite-omniscience and having driven her mad. But it's just Gog being Gog.
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Feb 17, 2024 16:57
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Even if you don't approve of Gog Agog's actions as demiurge, you gotta admit she gets some great guests on The Gog Agog Show.
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Feb 17, 2024 17:07
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Your cool theory is wrong, Jadis has perfect knowledge of literally everything. She doesn't use it to help because she already knows what she's going to do and she knows she doesn't help. She doesn't even consider herself alive because she has no agency in her actions due to being locked by fate. That's the thing though, she has perfect knowledge of everything that exists. Those other loops do not exist anymore. Zoss and maybe metatron has undone and unmade everything over and over again. The events in those loops never happened so Jadis has no way to experience it. Gog has at least experienced what occurred in those loops (and I assume the experiences of the people she wormed) so she can recall those loops in her memories. The moment she does, those memories have always existed in the current loop which allows Jadis to be aware of them. I don't think Jadis knows what happened with perfect clarity what occurred in prior loops, she only has snapshots of what Gogs reminisces about in the current loop. If I had a windows computer, install software, connect to the internet, have a hard crash, there is a record of it in Event Viewer. If I do a full reset of the computer, reformat and reinstall windows, then the event viewer history is clear. Same computer, but only I recall the general events of the prior setup. Now I can import an event viewer log and then the computer has a history of its past actions, but me as a person outside of the computer history has to do it. Same general idea. Edit: Actually a good example is the first cycles Gogs doesn't remember. I don't think Jadis is aware of what happened in those first cycles either because no one exists in the current cycle to have experienced it/remembers it. I think it's narratively a chekhovs gun, so Gogs is going to become aware of some portion of it in a future comic, so we know Jadis is aware of what happened in those early cycles from Gogs perspective and memories. Jadis will not have perfect Omniscience of what occurred in that cycle versus the current cycle. Donkringel fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 17:21
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From a thematic perspective Jadis is the fear of the future and Gog is the fear of the past. Jadis assures you that nothing you do will change things and Gog assures you that everything already tried has failed. In my own personal thinking Jadis is someone who has been smeared across time and Gog is someone who has smeared herself across space.
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Feb 17, 2024 17:26
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Donkringel posted:That's the thing though, she has perfect knowledge of everything that exists. That literally describes the past. Yesterday does not exist anymore. One second ago does not exist anymore. Perfect omniscience means perfect omniscience. She knows everything. Everything. No caveats, she knows everything there is to know. It just literally does not matter because she cannot act on that knowledge. It serves no purpose other than to make her miserable.
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Feb 17, 2024 17:41
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Benagain posted:From a thematic perspective Jadis is the fear of the future and Gog is the fear of the past. Jadis assures you that nothing you do will change things and Gog assures you that everything already tried has failed. All I know for sure is that Operant regretted the theory crafting that occurred when he introduced Jadis' Omniscience into the comic, so I need to do my duty in theory crafting and what it means after Operant introduced a character that is arguably outside that Omniscience. Multi-axis of regret, if you will.
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Feb 17, 2024 17:41
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Whether or not Gog-Agog is "outside" Jadis' omniscience - which is not possible, because perfect omniscience means perfect omniscience - it still literally does not matter. She cannot act on or share her knowledge because her actions are set and she knows them already.
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Feb 17, 2024 17:45
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I think questions of what Jadis does and doesn't know are kind of addressed by the fact she, as a character, screams in agony at the reader through alt-text. She knows literally everything always and forever. Jadis looked upon the true shape of creation and was shown Homestuck.
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Feb 17, 2024 18:07
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As the poster who proposed “even if you claim Jadis isn’t omniscient (she is) she would still know everything Gog-Agog knows and more because the method of her omniscience is Pascal’s Demon so the presence of any object implies all of its history and all related history into infinity” I want to be clear This is a point about how Jadis would know everything including other versions of reality even if it wasn’t stated directly that she knows everything. Everything. The Shape of the Wheel is not a subset of reality; when time turns back it’s the wheel that spins. Jadis knows more than Gog-Agog. And if you’re a Gog fan you want that to be true, because the more like Jadis she is the weaker Gog gets as a second round of the same script; the more unique and less omniscient Gog is, the better she becomes as a narrative figure. Also laughing at the idea that The Mass is trying to fix anything. Gog-Agog gave up on saving the world long, long ago, or she wouldn’t be a clown hive that eats people. Or possibly she could never save the world, because she’s a clown hive that eats people. Just because she’s big and old and self-congratulatory doesn’t mean she’s less of a demiurge or less of a fuckup. She’s not better than Solomon David she’s just more ironic; she’s no better than Mottom or Incubus. Demiurge is a demiurge and each one is convinced that they’re special, they’re more important, they have the unique backstory that justifies or elevates them. They’re all just the bastards who ruined the world. They’re really cool bastards but every single one has given the “I’m special, not like the others” speech now.
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Feb 17, 2024 18:21
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paranoid randroid posted:I think questions of what Jadis does and doesn't know are kind of addressed by the fact she, as a character, screams in agony at the reader through alt-text. She knows literally everything always and forever. Jadis looked upon the true shape of creation and was shown Homestuck. For Jadis, it is eternally Vriska time. But yeah the precise nature of her absolute knowledge kinda doesn't matter because she's incapable of acting on it in a meaningful way. She does things when the plot says she does things, so even if has extra-causal knowledge of prior resets via knowing what Gog knows, it is irrelevant since she's not going to tell Allison anything about it unless or until the universe deigns her to say it. Knowing everything diminished her from being a character to being a plot device with a kind face. Gog has a vast trove of knowledge from being many times older than the universe itself, but no matter what buttons she pushes the universe keeps resetting and she keeps reliving it over and over again. She long ago went through all the stages of grief and finally ended up on Jokerization, because amusing herself is the only agency she feels she has. So, I guess, what if Zaphod and Marvin weren't being played off for laughs. Part of the endless argument over whether Jadis truly knows Everything probably comes from the use of the term "demiurge", implying a character that is convinced they see the whole of creation but very much does not. Thundarr fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 18:22
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Joe Slowboat posted:Also laughing at the idea that The Mass is trying to fix anything. Gog-Agog gave up on saving the world long, long ago, or she wouldn’t be a clown hive that eats people. Or possibly she could never save the world, because she’s a clown hive that eats people. Oh yeah she would've given up long ago, but I'm wondering if, early on, back before she descended into full joker-brand nihilism, she might have tried to stop the cycles herself. Not even to save the world, just to save herself. And I'm wondering what she might have found out during that. As for now, yeah, all that's happening is that Allison is one of the more interesting variations the cycles have thrown up in a while, so she's engaging with it as a momentary respite from the horrific boredom of it all. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 18:24
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Youremother posted:Even if you don't approve of Gog Agog's actions as demiurge, you gotta admit she gets some great guests on The Gog Agog Show. An exclusive interview with The King of Kings, the The Rising King, The Heir, Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord? Who wouldn't tune in to watch that?
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Feb 17, 2024 18:27
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Not gonna lie, all of these homestuck references are agonizing This is a good comic independent of that perspective thank god
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Feb 17, 2024 18:31
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There are Homestuck references in this scene? Honest question, I never read it.
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Feb 17, 2024 18:39
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oobey posted:There are Homestuck references in this scene? I think they just mean the comparisons to Homestuck in this current discussion, not anything actually in the comic.
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Feb 17, 2024 18:43
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Thundarr posted:
Yeah but it’s overlooking that she knows all external events and processes but is still bad at understanding people or even processing her own condition. Jadis is all-knowing but not all-wise; she’s also frozen by her own power, unable to further mature into being someone like Allison who can embrace her own fate. There’s a strange loop to Jadis - she does what Jadis would do if she knew what Jadis would do etc etc into infinity. If she were someone capable of liking herself then the preordained actions would look different, because the basis of that strange loop would be different. So her demiurgic condition doesn’t require ignorance of causality or structure. Jadis can’t understand why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch, even though she knows how the commercial ends and can hollowly recite the reason they will give.
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Feb 17, 2024 18:53
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Diqnol posted:Not gonna lie, all of these homestuck references are agonizing You now know a flickering fraction of a second of Jadis' pain
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Feb 17, 2024 18:54
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Jadis has seen the shape of the wheel and it is circular Just like the discussion of her omniscience
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Feb 17, 2024 18:58
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Joe Slowboat posted:Jadis can’t understand why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch, even though she knows how the commercial ends and can hollowly recite the reason they will give. She does understand why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. She has ALWAYS understood why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. The knowledge of why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch will haunt her for eternity. She cannot ever escape the comprehension of why kids enjoy Cinnamon Toast Crunch. If she could do a Pi and drill out the part of her brain that lets her understand why kids enjoy Cinnamon Toast Crunch, she would, but she knows she does not do that so she will continue to do the thing she was always destined to do, which is let the knowledge of why kids enjoy Cinnamon Toast Cruch destroy her.
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Feb 17, 2024 19:07
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Rotten Red Rod posted:I think they just mean the comparisons to Homestuck in this current discussion, not anything actually in the comic. Homestuck, unfortunately, left an indelible mark on all fiction following it. The scope of that impact is not so deep as Tolkien for example, its mark on meta is instead broader and shallow, but just as pervasive.
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Feb 17, 2024 19:10
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Also this comic is literally a Homestuck legacy. (It started as a CYOA on the Homestuck forums.)
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 19:13
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also I stand by the fact that Homestuck was good right up until it wasn't
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Feb 17, 2024 19:19
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Rotten Red Rod posted:She does understand why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. She has ALWAYS understood why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. The knowledge of why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch will haunt her for eternity. She cannot ever escape the comprehension of why kids enjoy Cinnamon Toast Crunch. If she could do a Pi and drill out the part of her brain that lets her understand why kids enjoy Cinnamon Toast Crunch, she would, but she knows she does not do that so she will continue to do the thing she was always destined to do, which is let the knowledge of why kids enjoy Cinnamon Toast Cruch destroy her. I’m drawing a distinction between ‘know’ and ‘understand’ - she absolutely knows, but she will never feel it herself. She cannot cause herself to feel differently about it nor can she really empathize with it, and her decisions are driven by her nature as a person (which she already knows everything about, and therefore that also influences her decisions). If she were the kind of person who could enjoy the simple pleasure of sugary cereal despite everything else she would be eating it in the pre-ordained future she acts out. So she knows everything but is still ‘incomplete’ - which is the quality of the demiurge. Understandable, but also pathetic. Edit: please join me in imagining Jadis but she has a big bowl of cereal in every scene and is constantly stuffing her face Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 19:24
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She absolutely understands why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. She understands in perfect detail everything that goes into why they like it, from the marketing to the chemical reactions it produces in kids' brains. She can recite it all in perfect detail from beginning to end, and it makes perfect sense. But she'll never get it.
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Feb 17, 2024 19:34
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I think there's a pretty huge difference between Gog and Jadis right here in this last page. Gog is suggesting that Allison can win and go back to a happy life and is actually waiting to learn the answer. Everything is playing out so differently this time, she's curious, she may even be excited to witness this outcome. Hell, if the demiurges aren't the same boring bastards they've been the other billion times, she might even take enough of an interest to help. Allison can only hope Gog gets over herself, as Mottom almost actually did. Jadis already knows Allison wins, can't go back to the blissful ignorance a reset offers and rails against the multiverse until the day she dies. That's the path of suffering. Whether or not Jadis is there is predetermined, it is no less known to others than Gog's future partcipation but there is little way to figure it out; she will or she won't and there is no meaningful why.
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Feb 17, 2024 19:38
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Thundarr posted:She absolutely understands why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. At this point we are literally just disagreeing on which synonym applies to the kind of comprehension we think she doesn’t have despite being totally omniscient about other kinds of comprehension. We’re expressing the exact same sentiment, we’re just disagreeing on how to translate it into words. Ironically also a problem Jadis might have!
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Feb 17, 2024 19:42
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Gog wants to know what a happy life and happy outcome is so she can imitate it. She isn’t royal enough to make her own happiness.
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Feb 17, 2024 19:46
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:also I stand by the fact that Homestuck was good right up until it wasn't
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Feb 17, 2024 19:57
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M_Gargantua posted:Gog wants to know what a happy life and happy outcome is so she can imitate it. She isn’t royal enough to make her own happiness. Maybe Gog should try Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
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Feb 17, 2024 20:06
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https://twitter.com/ThePixelHat/status/1758882174890131891
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