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An interesting claim the sci-hub article I posted makes is that the idea that the creation of Israel was in response to the Holocaust is basically historical revisionism that didn't become popular until after the Eichmann trial in the sixties.
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Feb 17, 2024 19:03
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I’m going to put this behind a spoiler because of the content, but an American doctor in Gaza worked with children who had been shot by the IDF and wrote an op-ed about it in the LA Times. When you read about what he kept finding, it’s absolutely inarguable that Israel is carrying out an extermination campaign. TW: violence against children https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/1758883495919616220?s=46&t=BHs6Pl38GJXGN2Y4xeriNA
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Feb 17, 2024 19:12
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Esran posted:An interesting claim the sci-hub article I posted makes is that the idea that the creation of Israel was in response to the Holocaust is basically historical revisionism that didn't become popular until after the Eichmann trial in the sixties. yiddish is a dead language in israel, despite being the language of most jewish holocaust victims and survivors. there is a reason they hand out lehi medals and have no zegota awards
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Feb 17, 2024 19:19
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Esran posted:An interesting claim the sci-hub article I posted makes is that the idea that the creation of Israel was in response to the Holocaust is basically historical revisionism that didn't become popular until after the Eichmann trial in the sixties. Europe has a long history of colonialism through sending their undesirables away, Israel is no different
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Feb 17, 2024 19:36
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FlamingLiberal posted:Jesus Christ Heads up, spoilers don’t work on Awful app
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Feb 17, 2024 20:08
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Israel must be dissolved.
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Feb 17, 2024 20:25
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teen witch posted:Heads up, spoilers don’t work on Awful app ? They do work on my awful app
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Feb 17, 2024 20:29
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OctaMurk posted:? They do work on my awful app Same here. Edit: Just checked, there's a setting under Settings->Posts to show all spoilers; it might have gotten switched on for you. Atahualpa fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 20:35
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Then I guess it’s time to update iOS, as Spoilered tweets show by default. Anyhow, Christ, gently caress this is bleak. I don’t know what else to say. There is just so much horror all at once, so quickly
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Feb 17, 2024 20:38
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I'm not completely certain how up to date the numbers are, but it looks like delivery problems aside (boy what a caveat) Gaza desalination plants are currently providing about 18% of Gaza's recommended minimum drinking-cooking-hygiene needs. The sources in this summary article seem alright on a cursory flip through. https://www.juancole.com/2024/02/untreated-palestinians-mortality.html Oh, looks like the biggest source is a UN report from Thursday. That's handy. I'll look through it. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-119-enarhe The report seems to cover all sorts of things but I've been focusing on water lately as the most urgent problem because, well, it's going to kill more people than direct Israeli bombs and bullets if the situation doesn't improve. Quite possibly already has. Another article with some other numbers and more anecdotes: https://www.christiancentury.org/features/gaza-water-life drawing in large part from a December 2023 NGO report https://paxforpeace.nl/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/12/PAX_Report_Gaza_Uninhabitable_FIN.pdf quote:According to the PAX report, before October 7, Gaza was getting its water from three main sources. Water purchased from Israel and delivered via three pipelines accounted for about 9 percent of Gaza’s clean water needs. Three seawater desalination plants produced about 11 percent. The primary source of water was a decentralized network of some 300 wells throughout the enclave, used to pump groundwater from the coastal aquifer. That water was treated in makeshift neighborhood desalination facilities—makeshift because under the Israeli blockade that started in the mid-2000s, Israel, with Egypt’s help, blocks imports of items that can be used for either civilian or military purposes, such as concrete and pipes. Gaza has been hampered from importing essential materials for building proper, licensable water facilities. "But GJB", you say, "eleven percent from the major plants isn't the eighteen percent of needs they're providing now at reduced capacity". Well yeah, pre-invasion Gaza often had more than absolute-bare-minimum clean water. That second paragraph I quoted is... not good. In happier and poorly sourced news, the UAE has been claiming they're going to build more desalination plants in Gaza, but I'm pretty sure they mean after the invasion, so that's not especially helpful at the moment. Lots and lots of water needs to get in as a stopgap, and lots and lots of fuel would also help. The first water crisis in the invasion was precipitated by the wholesale and retail desalination facilities, and their pipelines, still mostly being there, but not having enough fuel/electricity to run at capacity. That's why the one solar-powered one the UN built several years ago was/is so important, as long as it's not actively damaged by Israeli bombardment it's minimally reliant on outside supplies to keep producing clean water. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 22:09
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Anyone remember how the Biden administration gave Israel until the end of 2023 to finish their campaign? That certainly came and went. Although according to Politico, Jon Finer, the deputy National Security advisor, said that the US wasn't imposing a hard deadline. Seems to be a running theme with this administration pressure against Israel, if you could even call it pressure https://www.politico.eu/article/will-israel-defy-washington-target-hezbollah-lebanon-hamas/
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Feb 17, 2024 22:34
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theCalamity posted:Anyone remember how the Biden administration gave Israel until the end of 2023 to finish their campaign? That certainly came and went. Although according to Politico, Jon Finer, the deputy National Security advisor, said that the US wasn't imposing a hard deadline. Seems to be a running theme with this administration pressure against Israel, if you could even call it pressure Wow..the US and Israel doesn't see eye to eye on the ongoing [now accelerated] genocide. Who could have guessed?  They've been disagreeing this entire time and the US seems to care too much about Israel as an ally to draw a hard red line up to this point. Why are you bringing this up now, considering it's a months old articles with no recent updates?
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Feb 17, 2024 22:51
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They see eye to eye in the sense that they are both completely ok with the genocide. If you're going to take the US government's statements at face value, you might as well do the same with Israel's.
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Feb 17, 2024 23:00
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Malleum posted:yiddish is a dead language in israel, despite being the language of most jewish holocaust victims and survivors. there is a reason they hand out lehi medals and have no zegota awards One of the coordinating points of Zionism in the first half of the 20th C was a rejection of pluralistic Jewish identity. I don't mean in terms of certain religious differences but in making various Jewish identities subservient to the Zionist dream. So you get, eg, Jospeh in Koestler's 'Thieves in the Night' saying: 'I became a Hebrew because I hated the Yid'. Yiddish, Ladino, Judeo-Arabic (etc) have all been slowly squeezed out. It's part of the same package as the erasure of Arab or North African identities. It's OK to bring some parts of culture you can assimilate into this Israeli identity. So Houmous is OK but Arabic and Judeo-Arabic are not. Shakshuka is the rage but you have to now be called Mizrahim. This musical style is acceptable but only if you reject the idea that it's possible to be both an Arab and a Jew. From my perspective it's a huge shame to see Jewish cultures lose so much in just a few decades. It's ironic that it's probably Jewish communities in the US that are doing the most to preserve the rich cultural heritage of myriad global Jewish communities (see eg Yiddish in the US) vs Israel which by its nationalism is effectively erasing them. e: You can also see this reflected in how The Holocaust as an idea is primarily (and for the vast majority of its victims) a European phenomenon. More than half the Jewish population of Israel has essentially no family connection to the Holocaust. If you read Avi Shlaim's 'Three Worlds' - well worth it for a complex portrait of a Jewish man who has multiple intersecting identities and examines them with an admirable degree of self-awareness - he notes that when he arrived in Israel he had no real notion of the Holocaust, what it was etc. It wasn't inured in his consciousness. The state of Israel's ownership of the idea of the Holocaust has turned it into this universal Jewish historical memory that now lives on (pretty unhealthily in my opinion) as the ur example, a kind of teleological inevitability, of what *will* happen to any Jewish group anywhere outside of Israel. So the Holocaust now has morphed as needed from a symbol of the weakness of European Jews (as perceived by early Zionists or the first generation of Sabras) to both a shield for the state and a warning device to anyone not a zionist: if you aren't with Israel, this is what will happen to you. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 23:26
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Kalit posted:Wow..the US and Israel doesn't see eye to eye on the ongoing [now accelerated] genocide. Who could have guessed? Yeah, they've been disagreeing this whole time, and the wallet inspector will be back any minute now. Christ. You may have noticed that it's 2024, and so the deadline mentioned in the article is now broken, and is therefore relevant to talk about. The obvious point of the post you're responding to is to provide yet another example of the Biden administration offering Israel unconditional support for the genocide, while putting out statements that try to make it seem like that's not what they're doing. You are saying that the disagreement you think exists between the US and Israel doesn't matter in material terms, because the US cares about Israel so much as an ally that they won't draw any red lines. I don't care if Biden feels slightly conflicted as he hands Israel mountains of weapons to murder Palestinians with, and I don't understand why anyone else would care about this either. The post you're responding to is talking about what the Biden administration is actually doing, and what pressure they're actually applying, not how well they sleep at night. Disagreement so mild that it doesn't amount to changes in decision-making strikes me as entirely irrelevant to this subject. Can you explain why you're bringing up this kind of disagreement as if it has anything to do with what theCalamity posted? I also think it is becoming increasingly unreasonable to believe that the Biden administration cares to any meaningful degree what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, and it is much more likely they're just putting out PR statements to make it seem like they do. If you think otherwise, I'd like to pose you this question: You clearly believe the Biden admin has disagreements with Israel over this genocide. What would the Biden administration have to do (not say, do) in order to convince you they are on board with the genocide, and their statements are all just PR fluff? Esran fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Feb 18, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2024 00:55
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Kalit posted:Wow..the US and Israel doesn't see eye to eye on the ongoing [now accelerated] genocide. Who could have guessed? The fact that the deadline was given with no repercussions is another piece of evidence of the Biden admin not really caring about the genocide outside of optics. They've been having so many "disagreements" you'd think that Biden would be a lot more forceful in his rhetoric and back that up by threatening to withhold financial and lethal aid instead of begging for more money for Israel and bypassing Congress to authorize arm sales.
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Feb 18, 2024 02:14
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theCalamity posted:I bring this up now because I just remembered and it's obvious why it lacking an update is an update itself. If it was only about optics, I assume the White House would have wanted this deadline known and would make an official announcement. Instead, we have a news story based on unnamed sources.
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Feb 18, 2024 02:37
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The absurdity of Isreal expelling people into the Sinai finally hit me. Its some real are we the baddies poo poo.
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Feb 18, 2024 06:30
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Kalit posted:If it was only about optics, I assume the White House would have wanted this deadline known and would make an official announcement. Instead, we have a news story based on unnamed sources. So the Biden admin can't even be bothered to put out an official announcement, and instead this deadline only amounted to private finger-wagging that can be leaked to the press when convenient, and when ignored, it had no consequences for Israel because Biden is continuing to pour resources into helping Israel with their genocide. The original post made the point that the Biden admin puts no meaningful pressure on Israel to stop the genocide. You seemed to disagree, and argued that the Biden admin has disagreements with Israel, but they don't amount to real pressure, because Biden will unconditionally keep funding Israel no matter what they do. So you are agreeing with the original post? You're essentially saying that the Biden admin might feel bad about the crimes against humanity they're helping Israel do, but they're not doing anything to stop them and are even supporting them materially. What are you actually arguing here?
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Feb 18, 2024 10:35
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Esran posted:What are you actually arguing here? I disagree with your claim of Esran posted:they don't amount to real pressure, because Biden will unconditionally keep funding Israel no matter what they do. I don’t understand how theCalamity thinks it’s only about optics. Why would Biden bother with the red line if it wasn’t being publicly discussed? The only other realistic option, to me, seems to be that he cares to some extent about Israel continuing to commit mass murder against Palestinians. Not enough for me and I assume most people ITT. But he seems to care at least a tiny bit Kalit fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Feb 18, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2024 12:20
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Applying pressure to Israel with unenforced deadlines to cease the genocide. It's like all the little leaks to the media about the admins frustration with Israel. Purely optics for the gullible libs, so they can believe the Dems aren't bloodthirsty genocide supporters. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Feb 18, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2024 12:32
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Marenghi posted:Applying pressure to Israel with unenforced deadlines to cease the genocide. This wasn’t some 5D chess move of planning in having this red line “fail” a month or two in advance and having unnamed sources at Tel Aviv “leak” this information. That’s why I included the word realistic Also, stop making up positions for me. Of course I know that Biden is supporting this genocide, just like literally every US president has supported a genocide (and often multiple ones) Kalit fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Feb 18, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2024 12:44
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I imagine that the only reason Israel allows any humanitarian aid and supplies any water to Gaza is due to America's pressure. It is frankly abhorrent that these token gestures are enough to placate the White House, but it's also clear that Netanyahu would be much happier if Israel could literally starve everyone to death or at least force hundreds of thousands of people to move to Egypt. There are clearly some red lines, they're just nowhere near where they should to be.
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Feb 18, 2024 12:48
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You seem very convinced that the Biden administration is applying pressure to Israel, but you also think there are no red lines for the Biden administration, we know that the Biden administration is handing over money and weapons to Israel in spite of whatever disagreements you think exist, we know that the US is doing everything it can to shield Israel internationally (e.g. at the UN), and Israel seems entirely unconcerned with any mild disapproval the US might express. When the pressure you think is being applied has no effect and US support is unconditional, why should anyone care to discuss it? If the pressure only exists in leaks and press statements, but is not reflected in the administration's actions, it might as well not exist at all. Would you also apply this kind of thinking to other genocidaires? If we were discussing the Armenian genocide, would you also spend time arguing that some people in the Ottoman leadership probably mildly disagreed with the genocide, and so they should be judged less harshly for that reason? How would you feel about discussing Nazi atrocities with someone who insists that it is important to keep in mind that some of the Nazis probably felt bad about the mass murdering, and might have argued behind the scenes to reduce the scale? I'd like you to answer this question: What would the Biden administration have to do (not say, do) in order to convince you they are on board with the genocide, and their statements are all just PR fluff? I want to know if there exists a hypothetical action Biden could take, that would convince you that your charitable read on Biden's administration is wrong. I'm having a hard time coming up with ways Biden could support the genocide any harder, short of ordering American troops to conduct the genocide directly. Edit: Part of the reason I'm pushing back on your post is that I think you're deflecting discussion onto something irrelevant: theCalamity says the US is putting either no pressure or very negligible pressure on Israel to stop the genocide. Your objection is that sure, Israel can ignore whatever pressure the US is doing, because the US is happy to support Israel as an ally, and there are no red lines in sight, but surely they must disagree with the genocide behind the scenes. You're moving discussion away from something factual (the actions the Biden admin takes to stop the genocide) and onto a topic where it is impossible to disprove you, because it's all based on vibes (what the Biden admin might feel about the genocide behind closed doors, and what pressure they might put on Israel behind the scenes, that Israel can freely ignore) Esran fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Feb 18, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2024 12:55
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Esran posted:I'd like you to answer this question: What would the Biden administration have to do (not say, do) in order to convince you they are on board with the genocide, and their statements are all just PR fluff? I just posted in my last reply to Marenghi, so in case you missed it: Kalit posted:Also, stop making up positions for me. Of course I know that Biden is supporting this genocide, just like literally every US president has supported a genocide (and often multiple ones) Biden obviously cares more about Israel being an ally at the moment than taking steps to ensure that they immediately stop the accelerated genocide. That doesn’t mean he has to fully agree with their actions and doesn’t have an actual red line. quote:Edit: When someone states that something is purely about optics, I interpret that as fake/insincere/no pressure. So if theCalamity meant “very negligible” pressure, than I would agree with that. But, to me, both they and you seem to think that Biden is insincere, doesn’t want Israel to stop the accelerated genocide, and is doing this all for show. And if you think my feelings are based on vibes and impossible to disprove, how is the same not true of claiming that Biden doesn’t actually care and these “leaks” are manufactured for PR reasons? Kalit fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Feb 18, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2024 13:14
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Kalit posted:Biden obviously cares more about Israel being an ally at the moment than taking steps to ensure that they immediately stop the accelerated genocide. That doesn’t mean he has to fully agree with their actions and doesn’t have an actual red line. The two obvious responses to that are: Why is this relevant to a discussion of what Biden is actually doing in real terms to stop the genocide? We're not discussing Biden's personal morality, we're talking about what he's actually doing. How would we even discuss this meaningfully? It's impossible to prove conclusively what Biden privately believes. We can only look at his actions, and those overwhelmingly point toward him not giving a poo poo about the genocide, or at least caring so little that it doesn't matter in real terms. You are free to believe otherwise, because it's impossible to prove that he doesn't care, but don't drag your blind faith that Biden secretly cares about the Palestinians into a discussion of what the Biden administration is actually doing to stop the genocide. quote:And if you think my feelings are based on vibes and impossible to disprove, how is the same not true of claiming that Biden doesn’t actually care and these “leaks” are manufactured for PR reasons? The same is true. That's why the thing theCalamity posted was about what the Biden administration is actually doing, and their pattern of behavior. For some reason, you felt it necessary to disagree with that post based on what you think the Biden administration secretly believes behind closed doors.
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Feb 18, 2024 13:32
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Esran posted:The two obvious responses to that are: You and others keep talking about Biden’s personal morality (e.g. he doesn’t actually care about the genocide, it’s just for optics, etc). That’s literally the only reason why I was talking about them
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Feb 18, 2024 13:38
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quote:Wow..the US and Israel doesn't see eye to eye on the ongoing [now accelerated] genocide. Who could have guessed? Yeah, this really looks like a reasoned objection to someone saying the Biden admin isn't putting meaningful pressure on Israel, and not at all like a deflection onto the subject of what the administration actually believes behind closed doors. You're overusing , can I recommend  ?
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Feb 18, 2024 13:45
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side_burned posted:The absurdity of Isreal expelling people into the Sinai finally hit me. Its some real are we the baddies poo poo. It's a complete reverse Pharaoh, how can it be evil?
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Feb 18, 2024 14:44
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Kalit posted:Biden obviously cares more about Israel being an ally at the moment than taking steps to ensure that they immediately stop the accelerated genocide. That doesn’t mean he has to fully agree with their actions and doesn’t have an actual red line. The Biden admin has no red lines for Israel. https://www.reuters.com/world/us-not-drawing-red-lines-israel-white-house-2023-10-27/#:~:text=7.,after%20ground%20operations%20in%20Gaza.
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Feb 18, 2024 17:24
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For what it's worth I think this sort of argument is a great example of a common frustration in dialogue about this sort of thing, here and in real life. Liberals, moderates, establishment types, whatever- people who have more faith in (and often admittedly more intricate understanding of) the power structures and incentives of our world. When faced with a statement about how the results we achieve are insufficient, or even objectively wrong and bad, an explanation of why that is so does make sense. Explaining isn't endorsing etc etc.. However, even if nobody accuses one of "wishing for unicorns", it still comes down to "better things aren't possible". I've been trying to better understand things since high school, and it's starting to seem like a sunk cost fallacy. Like if you've dedicated yourself to understanding these systems and how they produce what results we get, it starts to capture the way you look at the world. So when people tell me it's foolish to not expect the US to be complicit in some atrocious genocide, I believe them. But what conclusions should one draw from there? What is being preserved, what justifies this? What comfort is incremental progress to sustain our peace and stability when this is the cost? When I say sunk cost fallacy, i mean the very people who've most internalized these systems (in their efforts to understand them) seem the most likely to need detract from the failures and posit how things could be worse. It's understandable, it's human nature. But I also understand people learning the lesson, and saying, well- gently caress this. Embracing the peril and chaos of the unknown in defiance of the certain human tragedy and unsustainability of our control. It's no crazier than expecting to sweep leftists into office nationwide. Sorry this is so US centric and somewhat beyond the scope of I-P, but I hope I was able to convey my point as it obviously relates to this.
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Feb 18, 2024 18:41
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Kalit posted:You and others keep talking about Biden’s personal morality (e.g. he doesn’t actually care about the genocide, it’s just for optics, etc). That’s literally the only reason why I was talking about them Our reading of Biden on this is backed up by his historical statements and past and current actions, yours seems to be based on credulousness and wishful thinking. Why is it important to you that Biden is not funny morally culpable for this? Do you think it appropriate that he be tried in the Hague for war crimes or not?
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Feb 18, 2024 22:08
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Brazilian president Lula stated in an official speech while on his foreign diplomacy tour that the genocide of the Gazan people has only one parallel and that is the nazi slaughter of jews. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/its-genocide-brazils-lula-compares-war-gaza-holocaust Local media is going bugfuck insane over it. Netanyahu replied personally and summoned the brazilian ambassador for a more direct scolding. Leftists and peace activits are trying to push toward expelling the Israeli ambassador from Brazil and cut fiplomatic ties until a cease-fire, but that is very much not Lula's usual style.
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Feb 18, 2024 22:17
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Joint presser between Biden and the King of Jordan after private talks: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...fter-a-meeting/ The continued rhetorical dedication to Hamas delenda est on Biden's part isn't exactly good (it's pretty much impossible at this time etc etc) but there are a lot of tea leaves to read, especially in the Jordan statement. Pretty strong bilateral support for the West Bank not being hosed with which isn't a surprise, some hints as to what might be going on behind the scenes in negotiations with Israel. I'll probably do a reread.
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Feb 19, 2024 02:23
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The zionists I see on facebook are now super mad about Egypt not allowing Israel to not push millions over the border. I guess Israel is just a natural force like the wind and need not be mentioned.
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Feb 19, 2024 07:31
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Jaxyon posted:The zionists I see on facebook are now super mad about Egypt not allowing Israel to not push millions over the border. I've seen this for months. A lot of "if leftists really cared about Palestinians they would want them to be safe no matter where they were" and completely eliding over the fact that any evacuation out of Gaza would be a one way trip, and the whole 80+ year history of ethnic cleansing in Palestine
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Feb 19, 2024 14:01
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It’s just like the Nazis wanting to send the Jews to Madagascar. When it doesn’t work (they don’t want it to and it can’t work anyway), the Israelis will just be able to say “whelp I guess there’s only one option!”Google Jeb Bush posted:Joint presser between Biden and the King of Jordan after private talks: cat botherer fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Feb 19, 2024 |
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Feb 19, 2024 14:11
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there are 500k settlers in the West Bank and Biden decided only four were worth going after, despite every single one of them being an active participant in ethnic cleansing. He's beyond useless.
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Feb 19, 2024 15:42
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Joint presser between Biden and the King of Jordan after private talks:
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Feb 19, 2024 16:21
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Marenghi posted:The Israeli regime shows more of their commonality with the old Nazi regime. The contempt for (perceived) weakness masking deep fear and the belief that social status is a reflection of righteousness is the root of fascism, the obsession or righteousness of the chosen group which is usually talked about as the root of it is secondary. Hitler increasingly expressed contempt for the German people as the war turned against him for failing.
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Feb 19, 2024 18:04
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