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Saladman posted:For that exact ship? Who knows. I do! We have been referring to the Rubymar
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Feb 19, 2024 23:39
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:It's not an escalation because they aren't doing anything different. They've been ordering ships to put in for years. They've also been ordering ships to halt their engines purely so the ships are easier to shoot at with missiles. The thing they did differently is sink a ship. Shipping companies and states will take the threat more seriously. Of course it's an escalation.
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Feb 19, 2024 23:50
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Count Roland posted:The thing they did differently is sink a ship. Shipping companies and states will take the threat more seriously. Of course it's an escalation. That's what they've been trying to do all along. It's an escalation only in terms of results, although that's important.
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Feb 19, 2024 23:51
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By the logic of deadlyshoe 9/11 was not an escalation Not sure why it’s important to argue why it is an escalation or not.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:09
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Actions that aren't bombing innocent people. I would like to repeat my question, do you condemn the current and past bombing of Yemen and blockade of Gaza and why or why not, regardless of how stupid you feel the question is. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 20, 2024 00:22
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:I would like to repeat my question, do you condemn the current and past bombing of Yemen and blockade of Gaza and why or why not, regardless of how stupid you feel the question is. For real? Check the quote boxes in posts you've already made, or perhaps follow the 'Don't bomb innocent people' chain of logic to its obvious conclusion.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:31
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:For real? Check the quote boxes in posts you've already made, or perhaps follow the 'Don't bomb innocent people' chain of logic to its obvious conclusion. The obvious conclusion I reach seems to be different than yours, considering the vast majority of the innocent people who have been and will be bombed are Palestinian. Could you just answer the question clearly?
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Feb 20, 2024 00:36
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:That's what they've been trying to do all along. It's an escalation only in terms of results, although that's important. I don't remember whether it was in this particular thread but there was some theorizing in the past about whether AA was actually trying to seriously damage ships or just intimidate international shipping. Strictly speaking, this doesn't decide that argument for sure, but I imagine AA would prefer it to look like an intentional(ly nonlethal) sinking rather than them being a bunch of incompetent boobs.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:37
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Saladman posted:For that exact ship? Who knows. They had been demanding to some / many ships passing through that they dock at Hodeidah so their crew can be imprisoned and their goods confiscated, for several months. https://www.voanews.com/amp/missile-fired-from-rebel-controlled-yemen-misses-container-ship-/7399124.html for example from back in December. I don't think "Who knows" is the source I was looking for. Thank you for supplying a source that the Houthis have at some points ordered ships to dock in Yemen though. But it sounds like you're saying the Houthis are really terrible at for-profit piracy, because they're not managing to actually capture ships this way, since no one is willing to surrender. The one they did capture, they got by helicopter raid. It doesn't make you question your read on the situation when your explanation of what the Houthis are doing requires assuming they're dumb? TheDeadlyShoe posted:For real? Check the quote boxes in posts you've already made, or perhaps follow the 'Don't bomb innocent people' chain of logic to its obvious conclusion. Is the obvious conclusion you want us to reach that you condemn the terrorist government of Israel, and their American backers, for their months of bombing of innocent people? Because that's where "Don't bomb innocent people" takes me. Applying that thinking fairly, you might also conclude that it would be good if the Houthis didn't shoot missiles at lightly crewed giant floating warehouses, because they might eventually hit a person, but that would be pretty far down the wishlist. Esran fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 00:48
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I don't remember whether it was in this particular thread but there was some theorizing in the past about whether AA was actually trying to seriously damage ships or just intimidate international shipping. Strictly speaking, this doesn't decide that argument for sure, but I imagine AA would prefer it to look like an intentional(ly nonlethal) sinking rather than them being a bunch of incompetent boobs. You may very well be right. I find the idea of the Houthis or whoever shooting missiles at cargo ships without the intent of sinking them to be hard to believe, but no sarcasm it may be that my background in naval history is keeping me from being able to accurate gauge their mindset. I mean, kids throw rocks at passenger trains without really considering that they could potentially hurt someone so maybe its the same sort of deal.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:55
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Declaring you have a profound moral stand of “not ever bombing innocent people” as a prime moral guideline and demanding that I condemn them, and then explicitly condemning AA, but evading any explicit call to condemn anyone when the IDF, USA, KSA, or UK who have all killed far more is brought up seems really inconsistent and strange, unless you believe that the Palestinians are not either “innocent” or “people.” If that is the case, which hope it is not, have the courage to own your belief regardless of the potential forums consequences. You demanded the same of me, I think it’s fair.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:56
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Anyway, Houthis claim to shoot down a drone, US claims it crashed, actually. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/19/politics/us-investigating-drone-crash-yemen/index.html
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Feb 20, 2024 01:14
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Anyway, Houthis claim to shoot down a drone, US claims it crashed, actually. The link you posted says that the US is investigating the cause of the crash, not that the US is making the claim that it crashed without enemy action.
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Feb 20, 2024 01:17
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Esran posted:But it sounds like you're saying the Houthis are really terrible at for-profit piracy, because they're not managing to actually capture ships this way, So the lives of sailors in this region have less value to you, is what you're saying.
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Feb 20, 2024 02:00
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:So the lives of sailors in this region have less value to you, is what you're saying. Generally people are more concerned by actual deaths of children than they are with hypothetical deaths of adults. Since things seem to be accelerating it’ll be worth revisiting once there are any actual casualties but focusing on it at this point is sorta like thinking the most important topic of discussion preceding a civil rights march is how much the property values of street level storefronts would be impacted by any theoretical rioting.
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Feb 20, 2024 03:29
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:So the lives of sailors in this region have less value to you, is what you're saying. This sort of trolling is pretty transparent and I think the seriousness of an ongoing genocide and conflict in the region deserves more than this.
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Feb 20, 2024 04:08
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Declaring you have a profound moral stand of “not ever bombing innocent people” as a prime moral guideline and demanding that I condemn them, and then explicitly condemning AA, but evading any explicit call to condemn anyone when the IDF, USA, KSA, or UK who have all killed far more is brought up seems really inconsistent and strange, unless you believe that the Palestinians are not either “innocent” or “people.” If that is the case, which hope it is not, have the courage to own your belief regardless of the potential forums consequences. You demanded the same of me, I think it’s fair. celadon posted:Generally people are more concerned by actual deaths of children than they are with hypothetical deaths of adults. Have you ever read Candide by Voltaire? I think you'd find a lot of very convincing and familiar arguments in that lovely little book.
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Feb 20, 2024 05:45
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Grip it and rip it posted:Have you ever read Candide by Voltaire? I think you'd find a lot of very convincing and familiar arguments in that lovely little book. No, I have not read it, you should just say whatever point you are making.
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Feb 20, 2024 06:08
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Discendo Vox posted:This is not an escalation, it's just them succeeding at what they've been attempting to do for years- demand the ship dock at a port they control so they can strip it, and attempt to destroy the ship if they refuse.
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Feb 20, 2024 06:28
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Maybe Houthi chat would be better in the cesspool that is the I/P thread since it's tied to that whole situation anyway.
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Feb 20, 2024 06:52
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Charliegrs posted:Maybe Houthi chat would be better in the cesspool that is the I/P thread since it's tied to that whole situation anyway.
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Feb 20, 2024 07:06
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Charliegrs posted:Maybe Houthi chat would be better in the cesspool that is the I/P thread since it's tied to that whole situation anyway. It would be kinder to simply put a bullet in their head.
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Feb 20, 2024 08:41
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Ikasuhito posted:It would be kinder to simply put a bullet in their head.
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Feb 20, 2024 09:00
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mawarannahr posted:Not really sure what you mean tbh Trying to send someone over to the I/P thread. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies.
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Feb 20, 2024 09:06
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:So the lives of sailors in this region have less value to you, is what you're saying. This post is transparent trolling. The hypothetical death of sailors in the region (there have been zero so far, and this has been happening for months) should not be given the same weight as the actual real tens of thousands of corpses created by the Israeli terrorist regime, no. I would think that was obvious. Also why did you quote two completely unrelated sentences from my post? Esran fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 16:50
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Esran posted:This post is transparent trolling. The Houthis are firing heavy weaponry at any ship that happens to pass by. The fact that they have failed to hurt anyone thus far doesn't change the fact that they're doing the same thing you are accusing the IDF of doing, and yet somehow it's acceptable because they're too much of a Keystone Kops force to actually hit anything? If human life is precious, then it is precious, regardless of who and where it is, and any kind of violence against it should (in any internally consistent ideology) be considered abhorrent. But you are suggesting that it is acceptable to menace the lives of random sailors because a bunch of religious fundamentalists claim that they're doing it to save people in Gaza. Instead of, I dunno, trying to send actual aid to people in Gaza, or assist in negotiations that might equally assist those people in a meaningful way. Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 17:19
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:If human life is precious, then it is precious, regardless of who and where it is, and any kind of violence against it should (in any internally consistent ideology) be considered abhorrent. This is very cute, but someone who actually believed this would focus on the much greater crime of the genocide which has actually resulted in more than 25000 deaths and which is still going on right now, and not spend all their time wringing their hands about the death of a sailor that might occur at some point in the future, if bad luck strikes. When this kind of pacifist absolutism is deployed only to condemn the enemies of the West, and curiously absent when it's the West doing the murdering, it's obviously not worth engaging with. To put this in terms you should understand: If someone breaks into a discussion about WW2 to condemn the British for bombing German cities because violence is wrong, but they have nothing to say on the Holocaust, then I don't consider their moral reasoning to be sound. Esran fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 17:51
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Esran posted:This is very cute, but someone who actually believed this would focus on the much greater crime of the genocide which has actually resulted in more than 25000 deaths and which is still going on right now, and not spend all their time wringing their hands about the death of a sailor that might occur at some point in the future, if bad luck strikes. So you won't trust criticism of one side unless that person also explicitly criticises the other side. Which is not generally a thing people do in discussions about one subject, because it's, you know, irrelevant to the topic at hand. The fact that I criticize the Houthis is not related to whatever my opinions may or may not be on Israel, believe it or not. You may as well condemn me if I criticise Stalin and fail to say that Nazis are bad. E:and if I recall, the criticism of those Allied bombing operations frequently comes from the political left, weirdly enough. Imagine that.
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Feb 20, 2024 18:06
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:You may as well condemn me if I criticise Stalin and fail to say that Nazis are bad. If someone criticizes Stalin but becomes all evasive when the subject turns to the Nazis, then I definitely will condemn them. quote:The fact that I criticize the Houthis is not related to whatever my opinions may or may not be on Israel, believe it or not. Oh hey, would you look at that. Plastic_Gargoyle posted:E:and if I recall, the criticism of those Allied bombing operations frequently comes from the political left, weirdly enough. Imagine that. Leftists are not generally silent on the Nazis, is the difference there. People contemporaneously condemning the bombings, while refusing to take a strong stance against the Nazis, are not generally remembered as principled pacifists. Plastic_Gargoyle posted:So you won't trust criticism of one side unless that person also explicitly criticises the other side. If you refuse to criticise the side that is responsible for 100% of the murders that have actually been committed, and are mainly interested in discussing the fact that the other side might potentially also commit a murder some day, and your justification is "all life is sacred", then yeah. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Esran fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 18:41
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I back what he says about the Houthis and have gone on the record many times stating that Israel are evil monstrous genociders who should be stopped.
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Feb 20, 2024 20:01
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Kchama posted:I back what he says about the Houthis and have gone on the record many times stating that Israel are evil monstrous genociders who should be stopped. How should or could they be stopped?
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Feb 20, 2024 20:48
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:How should or could they be stopped? Not by lobbing missiles at random and/or innocent people, which is the point of contention here.
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Feb 20, 2024 20:52
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Kchama posted:Not by lobbing missiles at random and/or innocent people, which is the point of contention here. This is the crux on it. Every argument made in favor of their actions hinges on accepting as a given that the blockade will actually change Israel's actions in any meaningful way. There's essentially zero evidence for this either way to be fair, but we can see that even harsher sanctions against less wealthy countries than Israel have not really corrected their actions historically. I bet I could find many people who are supportive of the Houthi blockade (frequently quite rightly, I might add) previously calling Western sanctions overly broad and punishing the uninvolved, yet they don't apply the same calculus here. The Red Sea blockage will likely affect African food security far before it moderates the Israeli pursuit of ethnic cleansing.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:02
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Kagrenak posted:The Red Sea blockage will likely affect African food security far before it moderates the Israeli pursuit of ethnic cleansing. Attacks by Houthi against civilian shipping are *already* doing that. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/feb/16/houthi-attacks-in-red-sea-having-a-catastrophic-effect-on-aid-to-sudan quote:Another major aid group, which declined to be named for security reasons, said it was still waiting for two shipments of insulin and other medicines.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:50
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Then it all seems like it should be really important to focus on stopping the genocide in Gaza even if people don’t care about Palestinians, if the Houthis are causing so much problems.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:54
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Then it all seems like it should be really important to focus on stopping the genocide in Gaza even if people don’t care about Palestinians, if the Houthis are causing so much problems. Maybe the Houthis shouldn't be targeting unarmed civilians and should try to find some other way to apply pressure to Israel.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:01
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Then it all seems like it should be really important to focus on stopping the genocide in Gaza even if people don’t care about Palestinians, if the Houthis are causing so much problems. I'm all for stopping the Gazan genocide, but it's irrelevant considering the post-October 7th Gazan hot-war genocide isn't the impetus for their attacks. Besides, we can stop the Houthis attacks and the Gazan genocide both, we can multitask. The Houthis don't get a free pass just because Israel is committing the most vile of evils. Kchama fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 22:04
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Deteriorata posted:Maybe the Houthis shouldn't be targeting unarmed civilians and should try to find some other way to apply pressure to Israel. Sure, but maybe the United States and UK could also not help Israel complete the ongoing extermination of thousands of people and displacement of millions by bombing a country where we also aided a genocide, and maybe your energy as a westerner should be focused on the people who are actually dying by the hand of your government and their allies who are all actively bombing and killing people in Yemen and Gaza rather than criticize that someone is fighting back in the wrong way because they might kill innocent civilians.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:09
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Then it all seems like it should be really important to focus on stopping the genocide in Gaza even if people don’t care about Palestinians, if the Houthis are causing so much problems. This is what I do day to day but this isn't an organizing space, it's a discussion space. Given that, this otherwise pragmatic call to action just turns into a thought terminating cliche that gets dragged out over and over when people discuss the issues which posters actually disagree on. Also it's not like I can go yell at my Houthi Senate representative at their house or threaten to support their primary challengers like I can with Warren or Markey
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Feb 20, 2024 22:11
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Sure, but maybe the United States and UK could also not help Israel complete the ongoing extermination of thousands of people and displacement of millions by bombing a country where we also aided a genocide, and maybe your energy as a westerner should be focused on the people who are actually dying by the hand of your government and their allies who are all actively bombing and killing people in Yemen and Gaza rather than criticize that someone is fighting back in the wrong way because they might kill innocent civilians. That's classic whataboutism. What the Houthis are doing is wrong and should be stopped. It has no relation to anything anyone else is doing. Yes, other people are doing wrong things, too and they should also stop. "But what about those guys" is not a defense.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:12
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