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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Will advertising matter? Trump generates his own headlines and nobody is voting who doesn't already have a Trump based opinion. Traditional advertising as we know it is getting cheaper but the campaigns I have been working on have made the switch to digital which they see as more effective.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:35
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Angry_Ed posted:Also reminder, Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem and tore up the Iran deal. Those both contributed to a lot of instability in the region, but the thing that caused the current conflict is that Hamas launched an attack that killed 1,400 Israeli civilians. Unless Trump had a hand in planning that, then I don't think you can really blame him directly for the current conflict.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:36
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Do you think the Palestinian body count would have been lower 2016-now if Trump had remained in power? I don't know.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:40
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:This is all of course true, the genocide has been going on for 75 years at least, but didn't it see a pretty major escalation after October 2023? Not nearly as major an escalation as in the mid-00s. The ultimate weapon of genocide isn't bombs and bullets, it's depriving the population of the basic necessities of life. Blocking supplies of food and medicine. Destroying water infrastructure, electrical infrastructure, and shelter. The infant mortality rate in Gaza doubled after the Israeli blockade was first established, and currently sits at about 10x the Israeli infant mortality rate. About the only thing that's changed is that Israel is no longer going out of its way to avoid bad headlines. Previously, the IDF would go out of their way to avoid unnecessarily killing people as it destroyed their supplies of food, water, power, medical care, and shelter...but of course, that's not really a humanitarian measure so much as it's a measure to avoid being publicly associated with the countless deaths of deprivation that happen in the wreckage after the IDF pulls out. They're simply no longer maintaining that pretense of humanitarianism. Those affected by it in Gaza don't give a poo poo whether it's Biden ignoring them or Trump ignoring them. For those affected in the West Bank, Trump would be a huge step down from Biden, since Biden has been pushing Israel to rein in settler terrorism (including taking real actions against it, not just empty lip service) while Trump tried to declare the settlements legal and came very close to giving Israel permission to annex the West Bank.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:46
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When you say "ignoring them," what do you mean by that?
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Feb 20, 2024 22:49
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Those both contributed to a lot of instability in the region, but the thing that caused the current conflict is that Hamas launched an attack that killed 1,400 Israeli civilians. Unless Trump had a hand in planning that, then I don't think you can really blame him directly for the current conflict. Sorry, how many civilians were killed?
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Feb 20, 2024 22:52
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Yawgmoft posted:Sorry, how many civilians were killed? 1400.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:53
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Yawgmoft posted:Sorry, how many civilians were killed? It was originally 1,400 people, but they revised it down to ~1,200 Israelis and about 70 foreign nationals. They also took ~240 hostages and 31 are confirmed dead with another 20 likely dead. So, technically, it is somewhere around 1,301 and 1,321 people dead. Either way, Trump did not cause the current conflict. It doesn't matter what Trump did, it was October 7th that triggered the whole thing. https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1212458974/israel-revises-death-toll-hamas-attacks-oct-7 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/06/fifth-of-remaining-hostages-in-gaza-are-dead-report-says Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 22:59
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I think that was more of a "it wasn't 1400 civilians a bunch of them were IDF" comment, though I have not kept up to date on what the numbers have really panned out to be
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Feb 20, 2024 23:05
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I don't know. The answer is probably yes, by quite a bit, for the reasons below among others: Angry_Ed posted:Also reminder, Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem and tore up the Iran deal.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:06
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The answer is probably yes, by quite a bit, for the reasons below among others: And the assassination of Soleimani.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:08
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Levitate posted:I think that was more of a "it wasn't 1400 civilians a bunch of them were IDF" comment, though I have not kept up to date on what the numbers have really panned out to be If they weren't in uniform on active duty then they're still civilians even if this was true.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:08
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Did Biden oppose moving the embassy to Jerusalem? It doesn't seem like it from what I've been able to find but maybe I'm wrong. edit: this is an opinion piece but is the most recent thing i could find on the subject Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 23:11
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Did Biden oppose moving the embassy to Jerusalem? It doesn't seem like it from what I've been able to find but maybe I'm wrong. Biden says he'll keep US embassy in Jerusalem if elected www.france24.com - Thu, 30 Apr 2020 posted:Democratic presidential hopeful Joe Biden said Wednesday that he would keep the US embassy in Israel in Jerusalem if elected -- even though he disagrees with Donald Trump's controversial 2017 decision to move it out of Tel Aviv.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:16
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Raenir Salazar posted:If they weren't in uniform on active duty then they're still civilians even if this was true. Wait, what? Soldiers are still soldiers even if they're in civilian dress or on leave.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:17
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Raenir Salazar posted:If they weren't in uniform on active duty then they're still civilians even if this was true. They attacked military bases. And the number of civilians killed is 859. https://www.timesofisrael.com/14-ki...64%20civilians.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:17
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Additionally, Biden voted "yeah" on the 1995 Jerusalem Embassy Act. This was the act that was supposed to move the embassy in 1999 but it was deferred by all presidents until Trump (thereby implementing what Biden voted for)
mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 23:18
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shimmy shimmy posted:Wait, what? Soldiers are still soldiers even if they're in civilian dress or on leave. How does this work in a country with mandatory service for anyone over the age of 18?
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Feb 20, 2024 23:29
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shimmy shimmy posted:Wait, what? Soldiers are still soldiers even if they're in civilian dress or on leave. That doesn't make them legitimate targets. Especially when there's no practical means of differentiating them from other civilians. Yawgmoft posted:They attacked military bases. Then that's a different set of circumstances from an attack on civilian areas that might happen to have off duty soldiers or reservists not in uniform. Madkal posted:How does this work in a country with mandatory service for anyone over the age of 18? I mean it doesn't, that's still a war crime.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:31
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:When you say "ignoring them," what do you mean by that? I think it's pretty self-explanatory. What kind of question is this? Uncle Boogeyman posted:Did Biden oppose moving the embassy to Jerusalem? It doesn't seem like it from what I've been able to find but maybe I'm wrong. Biden was not in office or running for office at the time, and thus did not directly comment on the issue. However, every US president from 1966 to 2017 opposed recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel or moving the embassy there. That includes Barack Obama, whose administration Biden served in as VP. During Obama's administration, Biden does not appear to have ever called for moving the embassy. This is in spite of a Congressional law on the books (passed in 1995) that mandated recognizing Jerusalem as the capital and moving the embassy there. The bill had a clause that allowed the president to delay the move for six months, and Clinton, Bush, and Obama all invoked that waiver every six months for their entire presidencies, while at the same time expressing their opinions that said law was unconstitutional. I'm emphasizing this history here because the point isn't just that Trump did a bad thing. The point is that Trump did something completely unprecedented in US politics and US-Israel-Palestine relations, something that completely defied conventional American positions on the situation, something that even Bush had thought was too loving stupid to actually do. And that's not even the worst thing he did to Palestine! He promised to recognize Israeli annexations in much of the West Bank, regardless of whether the Palestinians approved of them or not, though the annexations got tied up in Israeli politics long enough for someone in the administration to freak out at the sheer degree of political backlash and convince Trump to walk back the promise.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:34
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Did Biden oppose moving the embassy to Jerusalem? It doesn't seem like it from what I've been able to find but maybe I'm wrong. There’s this article from Al Jazeera before he was elected https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2020/4/29/biden-says-hed-leave-us-embassy-in-jerusalem-if-elected quote:Joe Biden, the presumptive United States Democratic presidential nominee, said on Wednesday that if he was elected, he would keep the US embassy in Israel in Jerusalem even though he does not agree with the context in which US President Donald Trump moved it there from Tel Aviv. He’s alright with it being in Jerusalem but only if it’s used as leverage. The article also states that Congress approved the embassy move to Jerusalem in 1995 which Biden voted for.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:36
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Main Paineframe posted:I think it's pretty self-explanatory. What kind of question is this? To me it seems like the Biden and Trump administrations aren't/weren't ignoring Palestinians in Gaza so much as actively facilitating their genocide. Am I wrong about that?
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Feb 20, 2024 23:42
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Madkal posted:How does this work in a country with mandatory service for anyone over the age of 18? Reservists are not combatants, they only become so once they are actively absorbed into the armed forces' structure. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule3#refFn_BEB3C0A2_00018 It is less clear what the status of soldiers on leave is. If they are not wearing uniform and do not openly carry arms, they definitionally lose combatant status but from my brief reading they may not fully qualify as civilians either.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:45
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There's an entire thread for I/P stuff, isn't there?
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Feb 21, 2024 00:01
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Blue Footed Booby posted:There's an entire thread for I/P stuff, isn't there? It seems to be a salient issue right now in U.S. politics for whatever reason
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Feb 21, 2024 00:17
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Blue Footed Booby posted:There's an entire thread for I/P stuff, isn't there? People want to have a slap fight about Trump's better than Biden and not as many people are taking the bait there.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:19
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Blue Footed Booby posted:There's an entire thread for I/P stuff, isn't there? Much like the electoral politics thread, the I/P thread has a smaller audience and more rigorously enforced rules against snarky gotcha posting and low-content venting. Many find it to be a higher risk, lower reward environment as a result.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:23
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socialsecurity posted:People want to have a slap fight about Trump's better than Biden and not as many people are taking the bait there. Seems more like: People here really want a safe space where they can plug their ears and ignore anyone who is uncomfortable with the fact that their guy is openly & unconditionally supporting the brutal bombing & starvation of two million innocent people. It's really telling that anyone who displays concern for the Palestinian people here is treated as some kind of traitor to the party / obviously a secret Trump supporter or troll. The lack of empathy is astonishing - but maybe it shouldn't be, guess people here are just following Biden's lead. Does not seem like a very good strategy for bringing those people back into the fold by November (but I guess the consensus here is: "We don't need any Muslims/young people!". Better hope you're right about that!) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 21, 2024 00:28
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Killer robot posted:Much like the electoral politics thread, the I/P thread has a smaller audience and more rigorously enforced rules against snarky gotcha posting and low-content venting. Many find it to be a higher risk, lower reward environment as a result.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:36
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World Famous W posted:lol, when's the last time you read it? rigorously enforced isn't the words i would use to describe it I didn't suggest it was a high bar to clear.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:37
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Killer robot posted:Much like the electoral politics thread, the I/P thread has a smaller audience and more rigorously enforced rules against snarky gotcha posting and low-content venting. Many find it to be a higher risk, lower reward environment as a result. The electoralism chat and posting about posters aside, the US just vetoed a ceasefire resolution at the UN. It's hard to argue that it's not within the remit of United States Current Events. Raenir Salazar posted:That doesn't make them legitimate targets. Especially when there's no practical means of differentiating them from other civilians. I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. Active duty soldiers are legitimate military targets, they don't cease being legitimate military targets because they're not in uniform or not currently assigned a task. A military barracks is a legitimate military target even if the soldiers are asleep and in their pajamas inside. The article linked by Yawgmoth has a pretty decent summary of the numbers, editorializing aside, and people were correct to challenge Leon on "1400 civilians".
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Feb 21, 2024 00:39
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Killer robot posted:Much like the electoral politics thread, the I/P thread has a smaller audience and more rigorously enforced rules against snarky gotcha posting and low-content venting. Many find it to be a higher risk, lower reward environment as a result. This thread is unreadable and completely useless as soon as either one of those derails happen.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:40
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We're due for a feedback thread soon, but the problem is that the next major holiday weekend isn't until May.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:44
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Gnumonic posted:It's really telling that anyone who displays concern for the Palestinian people here is treated as some kind of traitor to the party / obviously a secret Trump supporter or troll. The lack of empathy is astonishing - but maybe it shouldn't be, guess people here are just following Biden's lead. Does not seem like a very good strategy for bringing those people back into the fold by November (but I guess the consensus here is: "We don't need any Muslims/young people!". Better hope you're right about that!) This is a pretty gross mischaracterization. I don't see anyone being attacked or even really questioned for displaying concern for the Palestinian people. What I do see is a lot of just asking questions about if Trump would be better. Presuming good faith, of course, posters are earnestly answering that no, Trump would be significantly worse. These kinds of posts are what people are reacting to. B B posted:I think we call Genocide Joe "Genocide Joe" because he's the one actively participating in the genocide and preventing the UN from calling for a ceasefire. As far as we know, Donald Trump isn't currently providing any material support in the way that Joe Biden continues to do. I am sure that if Donald Trump manages to win the presidency from Joe Biden and provides material support to the genocide, you'll see people criticizing Donald Trump with similar language. Uncle Boogeyman posted:I don't have the numbers handy, do we know how many Palestinians were genocided during the Trump presidency vs. during the Biden presidency?
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Feb 21, 2024 00:44
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shimmy shimmy posted:The electoralism chat and posting about posters aside, the US just vetoed a ceasefire resolution at the UN. It's hard to argue that it's not within the remit of United States Current Events. I think he was more getting at that a soldier sleeping in their bed in PJs would be hard to tell as a soldier instead of a civilian. Of course someone in a military barracks has a massive chance of being a soldier, but it's a different story if they're in a civilian home. Gnumonic posted:Seems more like: People here really want a safe space where they can plug their ears and ignore anyone who is uncomfortable with the fact that their guy is openly & unconditionally supporting the brutal bombing & starvation of two million innocent people. Do you have proof of anyone doing any of those things here?
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Feb 21, 2024 00:46
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DeadlyMuffin posted:This is a pretty gross mischaracterization. I don't see anyone being attacked or even really questioned for displaying concern for the Palestinian people. What I do see is a lot of just asking questions about if Trump would be better. Presuming good faith, of course, posters are earnestly answering that no, Trump would be significantly worse. Can you bold the part of my post you quoted where I even slightly implied that Trump would be "better" than Biden? As far as I can tell, the point I was making in my post is that the "Genocide Joe" critique is based on the fact that Joe Biden is currently POTUS and Donald Trump isn't. Joe Biden is in a position to effect change with respect to the ongoing genocide; Donald Trump isn't. I'm currently criticizing Joe Biden because he's in the position to direct resources to the genocide. You seem to have a much better handle on the argument I was making though, so I'd love it if you could clear that up for me. You quoting my post is an example of the very point that poster is making. I'm not a Trump supporter. I don't think he would be better than Biden on the issue. I'm just a poster who criticizes Joe Biden for providing material support to a genocide.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:50
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There is a US proposed cease-fire (a big thing is they actually referred to it as a cease-fire and not something vague) that is conditional upon hostage release and humanitarian aid access, two things that apparently weren't in the vetoed one. It also says a two-state solution is the best way to prevent this which I'm sure makes the Israeli government real happy.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:53
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Gnumonic posted:Seems more like: People here really want a safe space where they can plug their ears and ignore anyone who is uncomfortable with the fact that their guy is openly & unconditionally supporting the brutal bombing & starvation of two million innocent people. That's not what's happening here and it's kind of disgusting for you to claim people here lack empathy or don't have concern for the Palestinians.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:54
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shimmy shimmy posted:The article linked by Yawgmoth has a pretty decent summary of the numbers, editorializing aside, and people were correct to challenge Leon on "1400 civilians". The article only really claims the official civilian death toll so far including an unknown number of unidentified bodies; the article specifies at least 100, so it could be 1400, or it could be 900, or it could be 1100, I dunno this feels like the same sort of splitting of hairs that goes on with Tienanmen Square revisionists. Both are bad because of the indiscriminate use of force against innocents. shimmy shimmy posted:I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. Active duty soldiers are legitimate military targets, they don't cease being legitimate military targets because they're not in uniform or not currently assigned a task. A military barracks is a legitimate military target even if the soldiers are asleep and in their pajamas inside. It isn't clear to me if the claim is "some hundreds of people were actually off duty IDF therefore aren't civilians" versus "some of the death toll includes soldiers deployed in response to the terrorist attacks or soldiers on bases"; but I already wrote that if the claim is the latter I'm not objecting to that. But yes an off duty soldier, on leave, out of uniform, and without his gun, in a civilian setting, going about their day, having coffee at starbucks or whatever; isn't a combatant/legitimate military target. Because there's no practical means of identifying them from civilians. You can't just bomb a suburb and say that's a legitimate target because of the draft; or that there's some % chance some % of them have draft papers. If you look at the laws and regulations about war, and see its things like "It's okay to bomb a munitions factory" its under the logic that by virtue of being a building, civilians can make an effort to avoid the area, and the opposing military is supposed to likewise make every effort to target only the building and nothing else; how is a civilian supposed to know to avoid another person who happens to be a off duty soldier in civilian clothes? How is a military supposed to avoid unnecessary collateral damage if its a single person?
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Feb 21, 2024 01:05
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Personally feel this is actually a really fertile ground for productive discussion (though obviously difficult). I think this space is largely people who care about the world and their relationship with power, who by any measure should be on the same team (pollsters and shamans salivate!) A fault line that is coming up all over again and again isn't a trend or meme or op. This is something important here. I do think there have been good dialogues in both the electoralism and IP for what it's worth. Posted this in lieu of making the genocide complicity electoral responsibility thread.
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Feb 21, 2024 01:18
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