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scary ghost dog posted:this is pretty good but i would keep the hit squad defeatable and hope the warlock detonates the bag on their own Nah, don’t take chances with keeping your real gaming group on friendly terms. The last thing you want is the players carping that someone caused a preventable party-wipe. Dangle the opportunity for escape in front of them (particularly for the Imp), but they aren’t getting out of here. You could even jump the shark a bit: Have the enemies mirror the party but with reversed alignments. Make them be several levels higher, and the party can then campaign to get their revenge Kill Bill style. Depending on the player levels and classes involved, it should be very possible to have the enemy warlock throw down AOEs that hits the whole party at once (including the Imp), while the enemy rogue and other party members duel with the rest of the group. If the Imp or a player manages to get out of the building, they get sniped by a BBEG wizard with See Invisibility and Magic Missile / Fireball / Forcecage / Antimagic Field (as appropriate). Give them legendary saves, if you need to. The message should be really clear: United they stand, and divided they fall. Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 17:31
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The party is full of murderhobos so the 'evil' mirror anti-party is universally loved and adored as legit heros.
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Feb 20, 2024 19:05
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How much do you really want to salvage this party vs. just telling the players to start over and build PCs that *are* trustworthy and on the same team and poo poo? Just tell them that they learned the stove is hot and that if you all build secret evil or sneaky PCs that only exist to gently caress with each other, then that is what will happen.
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Feb 20, 2024 19:12
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theironjef posted:How much do you really want to salvage this party vs. just telling the players to start over and build PCs that *are* trustworthy and on the same team and poo poo? Just tell them that they learned the stove is hot and that if you all build secret evil or sneaky PCs that only exist to gently caress with each other, then that is what will happen. Yup, I think given the extra information that it's not worth trying to salvage these characters. But I still think it's worth a continued conversation and I would urge not to run out a TPK: leave the first party's fate unresolved and use that to generate some interesting stuff with the second party. Or if the players (or fishing with the fam) would prefer to start a new adventure entirely, do that.
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Feb 20, 2024 19:47
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theironjef posted:How much do you really want to salvage this party vs. just telling the players to start over and build PCs that *are* trustworthy and on the same team and poo poo? Just tell them that they learned the stove is hot and that if you all build secret evil or sneaky PCs that only exist to gently caress with each other, then that is what will happen. Yeah it’s a very fair question. To my mind the only good way of doing an evil / sneaky / greedy character is one where those traits all happen off-screen. Maybe the party is comically in on it (“Fortunately Goody Two-shoes the Paladin doesn’t notice all the wanted posters for Grouchy the Warlock) or else the misdeeds are an in-joke between the DM and the player, and never affect the party (“After the battle, while the rest of the party was celebrating, Meany the Rogue slipped into the castle and stole priceless paintings that they hope to sell once they retire). Having the camera shift away from the Mexican Standoff and focus on a new group of heroes is also a very workable solution - assuming the players will want to continue if they have unresolved bad blood. One of the reasons to have a BBEG reset is so that they become externally-focused again. Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 19:49
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Thank you for the feedback y'all. I feel better. Half of this was wanting to get other's opinions/ideas and half was frankly just me venting. I need to sit on this and think about how I want to approach it. I don't want to abandon this campaign and their characters, but I also don't want to go into the next session slamming down a YOU ARE FRIENDS WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT by DM fiat type of scenario. I want them to want to continue together as a group.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:47
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One of my session 0 rules is: You can do what you want with your character, but it is ultimately your job to always figure out/justify/rationalize their continued cooperation with the party as a whole. I also just tell them that we’re not PvPing. Ever. It brings nothing but grief ultimately.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:09
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fishing with the fam posted:Thank you for the feedback y'all. I feel better. Half of this was wanting to get other's opinions/ideas and half was frankly just me venting. I need to sit on this and think about how I want to approach it. I don't want to abandon this campaign and their characters, but I also don't want to go into the next session slamming down a YOU ARE FRIENDS WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT by DM fiat type of scenario. I want them to want to continue together as a group. It's worth noting that some DM fiats are absolutely justified because you are also a player and you also deserve to have fun and enjoy your time at the table. This can definitely include things like "I don't want you guys to plan your characters around how you'll be undercutting each other, because it just makes you mad at each other and also for some reason at me, so no PVP and no secret evil agendas" without having to have even the slightest twinge of guilt that you're being a big mean railroader. You can also point out that playing secrets is frankly pretty stupid and mean, because there's only really two reasons to do it. 1, Because you are only deriving enjoyment off the misery of other people at the table. No one else in the party is ever excited when you declare that you betray them. That has never happened and this hobby is 50+ years old. 2, Because you think the other players are SO bad at RP that they can't just act like they don't know your secret motivation, you have to actually keep it a secret. That's most assuredly an rear end in a top hat thing to assume about the other players, right? If you brought them in on the arc you wanted to run for your falling character, they could participate and make it more interesting. theironjef fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 22:29
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Saxophone posted:One of my session 0 rules is: You can do what you want with your character, but it is ultimately your job to always figure out/justify/rationalize their continued cooperation with the party as a whole. This is pretty much it. If you want to roleplay pvp drama join a wrestling league.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:33
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Saxophone posted:One of my session 0 rules is: You can do what you want with your character, but it is ultimately your job to always figure out/justify/rationalize their continued cooperation with the party as a whole. Yep.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:41
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fishing with the fam posted:While this is where it blew up, there were some small moments that also lead to this. In an earlier heist set piece the party's warlock (with the imp familiar) pocket dropped a piece of jewelry into the pocket of the party's rogue while the group was being searched by some guards. This came up again during the last session as a continued source of tension between them, and this is why my character doesn't trust yours. Why did the warlock do this? Was it just for poo poo and giggles, or did they actually have something to gain? Party conflict because of diverging interests is one thing, a PC sabotaging the party for no benefit is another. You can have an untrustworthy character, but if the other characters know you're untrustworthy, why do they not kick you out of the party? If there's no in-character explanation for that, acting on that untrustworthiness is a powder keg at best. (Tbh the standoff at the end of the session seems resolvable enough—stab the warlock to death if they refuse to relinquish the bag, then find the imp and kill them too. As long as one of the other PCs has +6 perception you'll eventually find them, even if they rolled a nat 20 on their stealth. Of course they might order the imp to destroy the bag, but that's still a resolution, if not a very satisfactory one.)
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Feb 20, 2024 23:52
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My main thing with Evil characters in a party, is that they at minimum have to be good enough friends with the rest of the party that they won’t betray the others for short turn gain.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:10
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Yeah whenever I play an evil character my go to is that the party belongs to me, gently caress you for trying to kill my play things.
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Feb 21, 2024 01:07
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Yeah, generally the problem with people playing evil characters is that they just immediately veer towards doing every possible evil thing. Actual evil people don't generally do this, just unhinged people. Most evil people just make a lot of decisions that are arguably prudent but notably self-enriching.
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Feb 21, 2024 01:20
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The name of the D&D movie is literally Honor Among Thieves
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Feb 21, 2024 01:23
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Also sometimes you want that Start of Darkness character arc of starting out well intentioned but slowly turning evil over the course of the campaign and not just turning the dial immediately to 11 by kicking the first puppy you see.
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Feb 21, 2024 01:23
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There is a difference between "not trustworthy" and "slips items into party members' pockets to get them caught while being searched" or "ditches the party to take all the loot". Lying about how much is in the bag so you can maybe skim off the top? Could maybe (maaaaybe) be a decent source of conflict or a hook for later events but the level of intra-party conflict you describe just doesn't seem fun for anyone. E: really, why did the warlock have their familiar try to gently caress over the rogue in that earlier event? That seems like a warning sign to me. E2: and if the rogue really wanted to make a new character and just used this opportunity to bolt (and either dying or becoming a DM PC and coming back to trouble the party) that could work if they were clear with the group that that was their intention, but I just don't understand the warlock here at all. E3: and if this was the rogue's way of leaving and rolling a new character they probably shouldn't have been under that player's control after they declared their intention to take the money and run, just to avoid the PvP. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Feb 21, 2024 |
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Feb 21, 2024 01:41
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one of my groups steal from each other and lie to each other and dont cast heal spells and kill npcs that slight them. they always have a really good time loving with each other and i have a really good time seeing how they pull off their shenanigans. i dont really have a problem with players stealing from each other, i have a problem with wasting time letting them argue about it. if my players were sitting there arguing about gold for half an hour im having a cave dragon burrow up through the floor
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Feb 21, 2024 01:48
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This is Celira Darkflame, an evil sorceress boss villainess I want to have as a villain in my game. Here is her stat block so far. And I was wondering if you guys had any tips for me for building a sorcerer-themed boss opponent's spellbooks. If you guys have any opinions on if she should have different spells or abilities or stats let me know, I'm new to this. I'm not sure how well of a job I have done so far and wanted some more experienced advice.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 21, 2024 02:32
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Why do female bosses always have next to nothing on?
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Feb 21, 2024 02:34
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She's a little overdressed for casual violence.
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Feb 21, 2024 02:37
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My tip is follow the example in MotM and don't give NPC spellcasters deep spell lists because it makes them an insane pain in the rear end to run well in the moment. Look at the the 5e MM on a business card, figure out their damage budget, and then give them versions of their damage spells as actions that fit the budget. Then you can trim the spell list to just the interesting utility spells that are gonna be cast periodically, instead of having to look over the entire thing to decide whether she's gonna fireball or magic missile each turn.
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Feb 21, 2024 02:38
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Deteriorata posted:Why do female bosses always have next to nothing on? here we go...
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Feb 21, 2024 02:40
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I think I might change out scorching ray out for Invisibility.
trapstar fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Feb 21, 2024 |
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Feb 21, 2024 02:44
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Deteriorata posted:Why do female bosses always have next to nothing on? To make the PCs question their morals. 
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Feb 21, 2024 02:45
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Deteriorata posted:Why do female bosses always have next to nothing on? All those candles are making the room very warm.
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Feb 21, 2024 02:54
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What happened Trapstar, that thread they made you create for your "What do you think of this image" posts after derailing the regular chat thread a bunch of times get too lonesome?
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Feb 21, 2024 05:35
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trapstar posted:I think I might change out scorching ray out for Invisibility. Keep scorching ray, rename her Celira Shartflame and build around that. 'sorcerer themed boss' is a little vague. What's her deal? Why is she a girlboss? What's her lair like? Who does her hair? Where's the fight going to happen? Does that dress come in size 10? Is she hiding or planning an attack? What's her motivation/background/number? Does she have minions? Is she seeing anyone? Why did she do to the party or what did the party do to her? Is there a theme to her magic beyond summon undead? Outrail fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Feb 21, 2024 |
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Feb 21, 2024 05:40
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trapstar posted:This is Celira Dark flame... You may post a text link to it here when you are back, but that's it.
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Feb 21, 2024 06:37
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So i have a first time player in Curse of Stradh playing a Vengence Paladin and we just went through the Wizard of Wines area. The fight in the building ended being a long extended mess and at one point he wanted to just grab the cart full of wine and just book it out of there. In the moment, i just had their NPC friend call him a coward for wanting to leave and not helping people. He ended up changing his mind and staying in the fight, and because he's new to the game as a whole i'm willing to give him a bit of a break in the whole keeping your oath as a Paladin thing. But i still want to punish him in some way because his God is certainly going to be pissed in his dreams tonight at the very least. What do yall think is a good way to softly punish him for almost being an Oathbreaker?
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Feb 21, 2024 07:47
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If I remember anything from CoS it's that helping ppl is pointless. Maybe he had the right idea. Or maybe my DM was bad (probably that one).
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Feb 21, 2024 08:02
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The Shame Boy posted:So i have a first time player in Curse of Stradh playing a Vengence Paladin and we just went through the Wizard of Wines area. The fight in the building ended being a long extended mess and at one point he wanted to just grab the cart full of wine and just book it out of there. In the moment, i just had their NPC friend call him a coward for wanting to leave and not helping people. He ended up changing his mind and staying in the fight, and because he's new to the game as a whole i'm willing to give him a bit of a break in the whole keeping your oath as a Paladin thing. But i still want to punish him in some way because his God is certainly going to be pissed in his dreams tonight at the very least. What do yall think is a good way to softly punish him for almost being an Oathbreaker? You could do a kind of Voight-Kampff sort of dream, give the paladin visions of people being tortured, people in danger, people who need help. But you're not helping. Why? Then the god steps in and has a talk with them. I dunno if I'd want to make that hostile necessarily, especially by giving a mechanical punishment, particularly when the player is new. Especially if this is a first lapse. I think I'd be more keen on having the god try to inspire the paladin, rather than berate them. Focus on the glory to be won, the good deeds to be done. Also, bear in mind that there's a difference between "breaking your oath" and being a capital O Oathbreaker. The Oathbreaker paladin in the DMG isn't what paladins become when they lapse, it's what they become when they deliberately forsake and reject their oath, turn their hearts against the beliefs and principles they once held so dear. That's not the same as having a moment of weakness, which the PHB recognises will happen. The sorts of things the PHB describes as punishment for breaking your oath are standard religious penances--days spent in prayer, donations of alms, acts of contrition. The penalties are deliberately quite mild and RP-focused because the oath is a roleplay element of the class, not a mechanical one. Since the player didn't actually break their oath, I don't think you should make the penalty worse than those things, though you could make it narratively more interesting. If you really wanted to make it mechanical, I'd be inclined to make it a bit of a give and take, and make it assistance that the god offers to help them fulfil their oath, rather than an outright punishment. Maybe for the next day give the player sort of the opposite of the frightened condition, preventing them from moving away from anyone who attacks an ally or an innocent, but give them some small bonus (e.g. +1d4) on their attacks or damage if their target attacked someone else on their previous turn?
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Feb 21, 2024 10:51
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dwarf74 posted:trapstar, you were specifically asked to keep your art/character posts in their own thread. This should be an opt-in exercise. Not backseat modding or anything but also as a Professional D&D Original Character Art Commissioner(tm, Do Not Steal), is this a trapstar specific thing (i.e they cross the Horny Barrier?) or is it generally the case art/characters we wanna show off should in the proper thread for it?
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Feb 21, 2024 14:16
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The Shame Boy posted:What do yall think is a good way to softly punish him for almost being an Oathbreaker? Talk to the player about their character and their character’s motivations. Ask them if they want a scene about their character being conflicted.
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Feb 21, 2024 15:56
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Not ragging on you specifically Trap Boy, but I would be wary of approaching interations with your players with the idea of 'punishing' them. Consequences are fine, but do remember you're all supposed to be friends playing a game.
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Feb 21, 2024 16:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:Not backseat modding or anything but also as a Professional D&D Original Character Art Commissioner(tm, Do Not Steal), is this a trapstar specific thing (i.e they cross the Horny Barrier?) or is it generally the case art/characters we wanna show off should in the proper thread for it?
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Feb 21, 2024 17:13
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The Shame Boy posted:So i have a first time player in Curse of Stradh playing a Vengence Paladin and we just went through the Wizard of Wines area. The fight in the building ended being a long extended mess and at one point he wanted to just grab the cart full of wine and just book it out of there. In the moment, i just had their NPC friend call him a coward for wanting to leave and not helping people. He ended up changing his mind and staying in the fight, and because he's new to the game as a whole i'm willing to give him a bit of a break in the whole keeping your oath as a Paladin thing. But i still want to punish him in some way because his God is certainly going to be pissed in his dreams tonight at the very least. What do yall think is a good way to softly punish him for almost being an Oathbreaker? So did he really break his oath by just wanting to run off with the wine? His is the Oath of Vengeance, which is about meting out punishment. If there weren't any wrongdoers in need of punishment there, I don't see an issue with him deciding grabbing the wine and getting the heck out is the best course of action.
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Feb 21, 2024 19:02
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I have an idea for a character who was captured, roped to a tree and cut up. That experience was traumatic and the character hasn't had time to process it. I was thinking of having them freak out when put into the Restrained condition, perhaps rolling on the Confusion table if they fail a Wisdom save... but I've reconsidered. Instead it's probably better to just not have mechanics associated or take away actions and just do it entirely through roleplaying.The Shame Boy posted:So i have a first time player in Curse of Stradh playing a Vengence Paladin and we just went through the Wizard of Wines area. The fight in the building ended being a long extended mess and at one point he wanted to just grab the cart full of wine and just book it out of there. In the moment, i just had their NPC friend call him a coward for wanting to leave and not helping people. He ended up changing his mind and staying in the fight, and because he's new to the game as a whole i'm willing to give him a bit of a break in the whole keeping your oath as a Paladin thing. But i still want to punish him in some way because his God is certainly going to be pissed in his dreams tonight at the very least. What do yall think is a good way to softly punish him for almost being an Oathbreaker? The PHB (p. 86) says that a PC who transgresses could spend an all-night vigil in prayer, or fast, or do some other form of penance, which would fit with something so mild. However, since the Paladin only considered leaving, but actually did in fact stay in the fight, I don't think any punishment is necessary at all. I think the idea of getting a vision from their god reminding them of their oath. Firmly, but perhaps not super pissed off because they didn't actually leave. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Feb 21, 2024 |
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Feb 21, 2024 19:19
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PeterWeller posted:So did he really break his oath by just wanting to run off with the wine? His is the Oath of Vengeance, which is about meting out punishment. If there weren't any wrongdoers in need of punishment there, I don't see an issue with him deciding grabbing the wine and getting the heck out is the best course of action. Yeah I have to agree here, even if he ran away I don't see how that would violate his oath. The restitution tenet comes pretty close, but I don't think it would actually be violated. But if you do view it as breaking his oath, I would recommend almost punishing him for almost breaking his oath. (Also, you probably want to make sure you're on the same page as to whether that would violate his oath) The idea of a vision from his god seems off to me, since that seems like it would require Strahd's consent. Even if you decide Strahd would be fine with it, or the god could force his way through, I think it would take away from the sense of isolation in Barovia.
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Feb 21, 2024 22:18
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Vision of himself telling himself off for being a chump, what would our God think of us etc etc. We are our gods representative in this blighted land, and need to uphold gods principals while we're cut off. If we don't get back on the path of righteous we'll be in trouble when we get back. Yadda yadda Basically the tiny bit of his god that he feels within his heart/ inner voice speaking out.
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Feb 21, 2024 23:13
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