The Spielberg WWII Cinematic Universe

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Eau de MacGowan: May 12, 2009; BRASIL HEXA
2026 tá logo aí

one thing that occurred to me on a rewatch of the latest episode - waiting for the lead bomber to drop their bombs. Is the bombardier in the lead plane responsible for aiming the entire formation's bombs, and the other bombers just drop blindly assuming that because they're in position they'll hit the target area? Or is every bombardier taking individual aim and they're just waiting for permission to drop out of some sort of protocol?

# ? Feb 20, 2024 08:43

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# ? May 24, 2024 14:40

Cojawfee: May 31, 2006; I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

Eau de MacGowan posted:

one thing that occurred to me on a rewatch of the latest episode - waiting for the lead bomber to drop their bombs. Is the bombardier in the lead plane responsible for aiming the entire formation's bombs, and the other bombers just drop blindly assuming that because they're in position they'll hit the target area? Or is every bombardier taking individual aim and they're just waiting for permission to drop out of some sort of protocol?

From how I understand it, the lead bombardier is the one who decides when the bombs drop. The way how the Norden bomb sight works is that it ties into the plane's autopilot. So the bombardier is actually flying the lead plane with the bomb sight. He gets all the dials set right for the altitude and airspeed and adjusts for the wind so that the bomb sight keeps the target in the crosshairs without drifting. The bomb sight itself is what drops the bombs. When it gets to the right angle to the target that the bombs should hit it, it drops the bombs. Obviously, not every plane in the formation can do this, because you could end up with the planes bumping into each other. So I assume that every other plane in the formation leaves control of the plane to the pilots to remain in formation while the lead bombardier gets everyone set on the right path. Then when the lead plane automatically drops the bombs, the other planes manually drop their bombs.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 09:03

Jerusalem: May 20, 2004; Would you be my new best friends?

Still holding out hope that Band of Brothers through The Pacific through the first five episodes of Masters of Air was all an incredibly complicated delivery mechanism for it to turn into a remake of Hogan's Heroes.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 09:05

kiminewt: Feb 1, 2022

I have no idea what Hogan's Heroes is but I just imagined the last Masters of the Air episode post credit scene being Sledge coming in to invite Buck into the PTSD initiative.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 10:19

St_Ides: May 19, 2008

Cojawfee posted:

From how I understand it, the lead bombardier is the one who decides when the bombs drop. The way how the Norden bomb sight works is that it ties into the plane's autopilot. So the bombardier is actually flying the lead plane with the bomb sight. He gets all the dials set right for the altitude and airspeed and adjusts for the wind so that the bomb sight keeps the target in the crosshairs without drifting. The bomb sight itself is what drops the bombs. When it gets to the right angle to the target that the bombs should hit it, it drops the bombs. Obviously, not every plane in the formation can do this, because you could end up with the planes bumping into each other. So I assume that every other plane in the formation leaves control of the plane to the pilots to remain in formation while the lead bombardier gets everyone set on the right path. Then when the lead plane automatically drops the bombs, the other planes manually drop their bombs.

This is how you end up with Creepback, where the lead bomber drops and everyone starts dropping earlier and earlier. It was less of a problem during the day raids.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 14:21

Jerusalem: May 20, 2004; Would you be my new best friends?

kiminewt posted:

I have no idea what Hogan's Heroes is

It finally happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NChPewIs0js

Hogan's Heroes was a sitcom about American POWs in a German Prisoner of War camp famed for never having a successful escape, but actually using it as a cover to connect with Resistance Networks to aid bombing and sabotage operations and to aid prisoners from other camps to escape through a series of underground tunnels. It was a controversial subject for a show initially but proved very popular, and had a number of Jewish actors who were cast with the agreement that the Nazis would always be the butt of the jokes, made to look incompetent or corrupt. The titular character was an American Air Force Colonel running a crew of Allied soldiers - British, French, American - played by Bob Crane who was a weird loving dude, and I also recommend the movie Autofocus for a look at his life and death (murder).

# ? Feb 20, 2024 18:07

Junkenstein: Oct 22, 2003

How realistic was that dogfighting scene? I guess it was never usually an option due to flying in formation.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 19:18

M_Gargantua: Oct 16, 2006; STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES; Exciting Lemon

I imagine that with the limitations of 1943 navigation, deviating from your waypoints to do some wild maneuverers is gonna cost you fuel, altitude, and location uncertainty. Imagine trying to fly 300 miles dead reckoning but your starting location is +/- 40 miles.

Not as much of a worry with short range fighters, as the inaccuracies don't add up as much when you're in sight of England or the bomb group you're escorting.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 19:25

Oasx: Oct 11, 2006; Freshly Squeezed

I honestly have no idea how the navigator can figure out where the planes are, i'm old enough to remember a time before GPS, but even then I hated maps.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 19:30

M_Gargantua: Oct 16, 2006; STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES; Exciting Lemon

Speed, time, a slide rule, and the occasional visual landmark.

Radio beacon navigation was the new cool thing in 1943 with LORAN and Gee, but those weren't widespread or ubiquitous.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 19:42

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Junkenstein posted:

How realistic was that dogfighting scene? I guess it was never usually an option due to flying in formation.

Ups and downs but nothing egregious. Mostly I was wondering how the side gunners weren't getting tossed around when Rosenthal made those super sharp banks.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 19:44

Madurai: Jun 26, 2012

Eau de MacGowan posted:

one thing that occurred to me on a rewatch of the latest episode - waiting for the lead bomber to drop their bombs. Is the bombardier in the lead plane responsible for aiming the entire formation's bombs, and the other bombers just drop blindly assuming that because they're in position they'll hit the target area? Or is every bombardier taking individual aim and they're just waiting for permission to drop out of some sort of protocol?

The process changed over the course of the war--early on, every bombardier was aiming individually. As time went on, the procedure went to drop on the leader's drop.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 19:50

McNally: Sep 13, 2007; Ask me about Proposition 305

Do you like muskets?

Oasx posted:

I honestly have no idea how the navigator can figure out where the planes are, i'm old enough to remember a time before GPS, but even then I hated maps.

They had a bunch of instruments to allow them to measure things like wind and heading which, in turn, allowed them to measure their groundspeed. Groundspeed + heading + time = location, provided you knew where you were at one point.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 19:52

Jerusalem: May 20, 2004; Would you be my new best friends?

M_Gargantua posted:

Speed, time, a slide rule, and the occasional visual landmark.

I know it's more complicated than I'm putting it, but I did laugh when Crosby is asked for a heading and gives up on the maps for the moment and runs over to look out the window :allears:

# ? Feb 20, 2024 19:55

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

He managed to hit the one tree in East Anglia

# ? Feb 20, 2024 19:57

Cojawfee: May 31, 2006; I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

Arc Hammer posted:

Ups and downs but nothing egregious. Mostly I was wondering how the side gunners weren't getting tossed around when Rosenthal made those super sharp banks.

A B-17 isn't a nimble fighter, so I am guessing he was doing his best to do positive G maneuvers so the gunners would mostly be pushed down and not thrown around too much.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 21:32

XYZAB: Jun 29, 2003; HNNNNNGG!!

Junkenstein posted:

How realistic was that dogfighting scene? I guess it was never usually an option due to flying in formation.

Spawn in a B17 in War Thunder and see for yourself how well slowing down and presenting a larger surface area to aim at would go for you. :q:

# ? Feb 20, 2024 22:43

XYZAB: Jun 29, 2003; HNNNNNGG!!

Oasx posted:

I honestly have no idea how the navigator can figure out where the planes are, i'm old enough to remember a time before GPS, but even then I hated maps.

https://www.303rdbg.com/crew-duties.html

quote:

The navigator's job is to direct your flight from departure to destination and return. He must know the exact position of the airplane at all times.

Navigation is the art of determining geographic positions by means of (a) pilotage, (b) dead reckoning, (c) radio, or (d) celestial navigation, or any combination of these 4 methods. By any one or combination of methods the navigator determines the position of the airplane in relation to the earth.

Pilotage

Pilotage is the method of determining the airplane's position by visual reference to the ground. The importance of accurate pilotage cannot over-emphasized. In combat navigation, all bombing targets are approached by pilotage, and in many theaters the route is maintained by pilotage. This requires not merely the vicinity type, but pin-point pilotage. The exact position of the airplane must be known not within 5 miles but within � of a mile.

The navigator does this by constant reference to groundspeeds and ETA's established for points ahead, the ground, and to his maps and charts. During the mission, so long as he can maintain visual contact with the ground, the navigator can establish these pin-point positions so that the exact track of the airplane will be known when the mission is completed.

Dead Reckoning

Dead reckoning is the basis of all other types of navigation. For instance, if the navigator is doing pilotage and computes ETA's for points ahead, he is using dead reckoning.

Dead reckoning determines the position of the airplane at any given time by keeping an account of the track and distance flown over the earth's surface from the point of departure or last known position.

Dead reckoning can be subdivided into two classes:

1. Dead reckoning as a result of a series of known positions obtained by some other means of navigation.
For example, you, as pilot, start on a mission from London to Berlin at 25,000 feet. For the first hour your navigator keeps track by pilotage; at the same time recording the heading and airspeed which you are holding. According to plan, at the end of the first hour the airplane goes above the clouds, thus losing contact with the ground. By means of dead reckoning from his last pilotage point, the navigator is able to tell the position of the aircraft at any time. The first hour's travel has given him the wind prevalent at altitude, and the track and groundspeed being made. By computing track and distance from the last pilotage point, he can always tell the position of the airplane. When your airplane comes out of the clouds near Berlin, the navigator will have a very close approximation of his exact position, and will be able to pick up pilotage points quickly.

2. Dead reckoning as a result of visual references other than pilotage.
When flying over water, desert, or barren land, where no reliable pilotage points are available, accurate DR navigation still can be performed. By means of the drift meter the navigator is able to determine drift, the angle between the heading of the airplane and its track over the ground. The true heading of the airplane is obtained by application of compass error to the compass reading. The true heading plus or minus the drift (as read on the drift meter) gives the track of the airplane. At a constant airspeed, drift on 2 or more headings will give the navigator information necessary to obtain the wind by use of his computer. Groundspeed is computed easily once the wind, heading, and airspeed are known. So, by constant recording of true heading, true airspeed, drift, and groundspeed, the navigator is able to determine accurately the position of the airplane at any given time. For greatest accuracy, the pilot must maintain constant courses and airspeeds. If course or airspeed is changed, notify the navigator so he can record these changes.

Radio

Radio navigation makes use of various radio aids to determine position. The development of many new radio devices has increased the use of radio in combat zones. However, the ease with which radio aids can be jammed, or bent, limits the use of radio to that of a check on DR and pilotage. The navigator, in conjunction with the radio man, is responsible for all radio procedures, approaches, etc., that are in effect in the theater.

Celestial

Celestial navigation is the science of determining position by reference to 2 or more celestial bodies. The navigator uses a sextant, accurate time, and many tables to obtain what he calls a line of position. Actually this line is part of a circle on which the altitude of the particular body is constant for that instant of time. An intersection of 2 or more of these lines gives the navigator a fix. These fixes can be relied on as being accurate within approximately 10 miles. One reason for inaccuracy is the instability of the airplane as it moves through space, causing acceleration of the sextant bubble (a level denoting the horizontal). Because of this acceleration, the navigator takes observations over a period of time so that the acceleration error will cancel out to some extent. If the navigator tells the pilot when he wishes to take an observation, extremely careful flying on the part of the pilot during the few minutes it takes to make the observation will result in much greater accuracy. Generally speaking, the only celestial navigation used by a combat crew is during the delivering flight to the theater. But in all cases celestial navigation is used as a check on dead reckoning and pilotage except where celestial is the only method available, such as on long over-water flights, etc.

Instrument Calibration

Instrument calibration is an important duty of the navigator. All navigation depends directly on the accuracy of his instruments. Correct calibration requires close cooperation and extremely careful flying by the pilot. Instruments to be calibrated include the altimeter, all compasses, airspeed indicators, alignment of the astrocompass, astrograph, and drift meter, and check on the navigator's sextant and watch.

Pilot-Navigator Preflight Planning

1. Pilot and navigator must study flight plan of the route to be flown and select alternate air fields.
2. Study the weather with the navigator. Know what weather you are likely to encounter. Decide what action is to be taken. Know the weather conditions at the alternate airfields.
3. Inform your navigator at what airspeed and altitude you wish to fly so that he can prepare his flight plan.
4. Learn what type of navigation the navigator intends to use: pilotage, dead reckoning, radio, celestial, or a combination of all methods.
5. Determine check points; plan to make radio fixes.
6. Work out an effective communication method with your navigator to be used in flight.
7. Synchronize your watch with your navigator's.

Pilot-Navigator in Flight

1. Constant course - For accurate navigation, the pilot -- you -- must fly a constant course. The navigator has many computations and entries to make in his log. Constantly changing course makes his job more difficult. A good navigator is supposed to be able to follow the pilot, but he cannot be taking compass readings all the time.
2. Constant airspeed must be held as nearly as possible. This is as important to the navigator as is a constant course in determining position.
3. Precision flying by the pilot greatly affects the accuracy of the navigator's instrument readings, particularly celestial readings. A slight error in celestial reading can cause considerable error in determining positions. You can help the navigator by providing as steady a platform as possible from which he can take readings. The navigator should notify you when he intends to take readings so that the airplane can be leveled off and flown as smoothly as possible, preferably by using the automatic pilot. Do not allow your navigator to be disturbed while he is taking celestial readings.
4. Notify the navigator of any change in flight, such as change in altitude, course, or airspeed. If change in flight plan is to be made, consult the navigator. Talk over the proposed change so that he can plan the flight and advise you about it.
5. If there is doubt about the position of the airplane, pilot and navigator should get together, refer to the navigator's flight log, talk the problem over and decide together the best course of action to take.
6. Check your compasses at intervals with those of the navigator, noting any deviation.
7. Require your navigator to give position reports at intervals.
8. You are ultimately responsible for getting the airplane to its destination. Therefore, it is your duty to know your position at all times.
9. Encourage your navigator to use as many navigation methods as possible as a means of double-checking.

Post-flight Critique

After every flight get together with the navigator and discuss the flight and compare notes. Go over the navigator's log. If there have been serious navigational errors, discuss them with the navigator and determine their cause. If the navigator has been at fault, caution him that it is his job to see that the same mistake does not occur again. If the error has been caused by faulty instruments, see that they are corrected before another navigation mission is attempted. If your flying has contributed to inaccuracy in navigation, try to fly a better course next time.

Miscellaneous Duties

The navigator's primary duty is navigating your airplane with a high degree of accuracy. But as a member of the team, he must also have a general knowledge of the entire operation of the airplane.

He has a .50-cal. machine gun at his station, and he must be able to use it skillfully and to service it in emergencies.

He must be familiar with the oxygen system, know how to operate the turrets, radio equipment, and fuel transfer system.

He must know the location of all fuses and spare fuses, lights and spare lights, affecting navigation.

He must be familiar with emergency procedures, such as the manual operation of landing gear, bomb bay doors, and flaps, and the proper procedures for crash landings, ditching, bailout, etc.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 22:51

Bloody Pom: Jun 5, 2011

XYZAB posted:

Spawn in a B17 in War Thunder and see for yourself how well slowing down and presenting a larger surface area to aim at would go for you.

I imagine leading an erratically moving target is a bit harder when your viewpoint is locked firmly inside your cockpit and you don't have a magic floating circle in the sky telling you exactly where your bullets will go :v:

With the rest of the flight gone, there was really no reason for the pilot to not try evading.

# ? Feb 20, 2024 23:48

THF13: Sep 26, 2007; Keep an adversary in the dark about what you're capable of, and he has to assume the worst.

There's a eastern theater crew who were known to go out of their way to do pretty much exactly that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iuq3Wfz3RA

# ? Feb 21, 2024 03:06

Oasx: Oct 11, 2006; Freshly Squeezed

XYZAB posted:

https://www.303rdbg.com/crew-duties.html

Interesting, thanks!

# ? Feb 21, 2024 05:11

Cojawfee: May 31, 2006; I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

XYZAB posted:

Spawn in a B17 in War Thunder and see for yourself how well slowing down and presenting a larger surface area to aim at would go for you.

A larger surface area that has 2-3 aimable machine guns on it. He was pointing the guns at the planes.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 05:17

Eau de MacGowan: May 12, 2009; BRASIL HEXA
2026 tá logo aí

THF13 posted:

There's a eastern theater crew who were known to go out of their way to do pretty much exactly that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iuq3Wfz3RA

oh god a white guy covered in norse tattoos

the algorithm's going to be recommending me pro-rhodesia videos for the next six months

# ? Feb 21, 2024 05:53

ded: Oct 27, 2005; Kooler than Jesus

THF13 posted:

There's a eastern theater crew who were known to go out of their way to do pretty much exactly that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iuq3Wfz3RA

this guy is so full of poo poo

edit : for context - he claims they not only doubled the amount of .50 cal guns on the plane with 3 "spares" but also somehow dropped 2000lbs in weight

and thats only part of the nonsense he goes on about

:lol:

ded fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Feb 21, 2024

# ? Feb 21, 2024 06:55

Broadlybrowsing: Jul 5, 2021

I started watching Rogue Heroes because of this thread and I really enjoyed it. Wildly different in tone, complete with anachronistic needle drops, but a super fun watch.

If either of these shows are to be believed, it seems like 25% of all British casualties in wwii were related to bar fights.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 07:01

ColonelJohnMatrix: Jun 24, 2006; Because all fucking hell is going to break loose

Broadlybrowsing posted:

I started watching Rogue Heroes because of this thread and I really enjoyed it. Wildly different in tone, complete with anachronistic needle drops, but a super fun watch.

If either of these shows are to be believed, it seems like 25% of all British casualties in wwii were related to bar fights.

I think the show has done a pretty good job of showing the yin/yang part of a bomber crew's life to where it was warm bed and good accommodations at the beginning and end of the day mixed with abject terror and horrific conditions during the middle of it. That kind of duality and suddenness had to be a hell of a hard thing to manage.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 14:58

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

ded posted:

this guy is so full of poo poo

edit : for context - he claims they not only doubled the amount of .50 cal guns on the plane with 3 "spares" but also somehow dropped 2000lbs in weight

and thats only part of the nonsense he goes on about

I mean I skipped the video and just read the wikipedia article and all that is in the wiki article too. Apparently they got rid of a ton of stuff they considered non-essential and swapped out the engines for something faster as well as increasing the .50 cals by making some of the gunnery stations twin .50 cals instead of single.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 16:31

GolfHole: Feb 26, 2004

I'm surprised that, in virtually no war media, have I ever seen an air crew land and proceed to smack around the ground crew for having screwed something up.

I simply do not believe that this scenario did not happen in war time. Instead I'm amazed that there has been some sort of treaty for ~100 years wherein everybody pretends there was infinite respect and no emotions ever run hot.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 17:53

joepinetree: Apr 5, 2012

Most war media is, to some extent, also propaganda. Sure, you also have films like Platoon that are not, but those are relatively rare. That goes double for a war like ww2: think of all the depictions of war how many you see portray rape, for example, which by all historical accounts was very common on all sides.

Anything air force related is going to be even more so the case. Because at that point you likely need official support of some form to be able to even film the thing. Masters of the air for example was supported by the National Museum of the Mighty Eighth Air Force. Masters of the air at least showed one plane going down in training, which is more than most other media. But you're never going to see a genuine portrayal of just the magnitude of deaths in training or due to mechanical failure.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 18:29

INTJ Mastermind: Dec 30, 2004; It's a radial!

Eau de MacGowan posted:

one thing that occurred to me on a rewatch of the latest episode - waiting for the lead bomber to drop their bombs. Is the bombardier in the lead plane responsible for aiming the entire formation's bombs, and the other bombers just drop blindly assuming that because they're in position they'll hit the target area? Or is every bombardier taking individual aim and they're just waiting for permission to drop out of some sort of protocol?

If every plane aims for the same DMPI (desired mean point of impact), the entire formation will crunch up over the target, with understandably undesirable results. That is why everyone in the formation drops when the lead bombardier drops.

The German fighters would target the lead planes for this reason. Imagine the OH CRAP WHAT NOW?! of losing your lead bombardier when you�re on the run-in and 30-60 seconds from dropping bombs.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 19:48

BIG HEADLINE: Jun 13, 2006; "Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"

Honestly, when the bombardier was waiting I thought the lead plane was a dead stick with everyone in the nose section dead and the plane was stuck on autopilot.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 20:04

CubanMissile: Apr 22, 2003; Of Hulks and Spider-Men

I agree with Elvis, that dude�s sheepskin jacket was ugly as hell.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 21:28

Mister Bates: Aug 4, 2010

1988 Brit miniseries 'Piece of Cake' (which I think has already been mentioned in this thread) is worth checking out for being one of the few TV productions about WW2 aviators that isn't complete hagiography, with the featured fighter squadron including at least one obvious sociopath and most of the rest being obviously unfit for duty in one way or another (as the series continues there is another pilot who is obviously rapidly going insane and losing his grip on reality, but they keep him flying anyway because he's experienced and there's no one to replace him with).

# ? Feb 21, 2024 22:05

MrMojok: Jan 28, 2011

Haha yeah, the one who decides to start flying his plane upside down during the Battle of Britain.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 22:21

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

MrMojok posted:

Haha yeah, the one who decides to start flying his plane upside down during the Battle of Britain.

Uh, Lieutenant, what were you doing there?

Communicating. Keeping up foreign relations. I was uh, you know, giving him the bird.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 22:27

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

GolfHole posted:

I'm surprised that, in virtually no war media, have I ever seen an air crew land and proceed to smack around the ground crew for having screwed something up.

I simply do not believe that this scenario did not happen in war time. Instead I'm amazed that there has been some sort of treaty for ~100 years wherein everybody pretends there was infinite respect and no emotions ever run hot.

I've never seen anything on it in any secondary source or first-person account. This is likely due to the fact that the same ground crew will be servicing your plane before your next flight.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 22:37

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

I can remember a few times that crew chief Tyrol and thr viper pilots got into scraps over the conditions of their vipers in the 2000s Battlestar Gaalctica, if you want to extend into the realm of science fiction.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 22:50

MrMojok: Jan 28, 2011

My knowledge of that is limited to the 1970s tv show Baa Baa Black Sheep.

Because of this I believe it was the other way around� the aircraft crew chief was the one who beat the poo poo out of the pilots.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 22:59

Bloody Pom: Jun 5, 2011

MrMojok posted:

Haha yeah, the one who decides to start flying his plane upside down during the Battle of Britain.

Insanity aside, wouldn't that be an incredibly stupid idea on account of most British planes using float carbs at the time?

# ? Feb 21, 2024 23:08

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# ? May 24, 2024 14:40

twistedmentat: Nov 21, 2003; Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

I thought it was a neat detail that you saw the little candy and gum dispensers that USAAF crews had on the dashboard of one of the bombers in a shot.

# ? Feb 21, 2024 23:16

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > The Spielberg WWII Cinematic Universe

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