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Nicodemus Dumps posted:Frankly, in a better world more ceos would be subject to constant scrutiny and mocking Yeah, I think this is the key point here. The discourse has taken on a far friendlier cast every time Avanya's stepped in, even within the same thread; Mariina draws the fire she does because she's made a specific choice to do some Musk-style small business brain with big business title "you guys just don't get my business genius and the correctness of my vision" posting, complete with continuing WotWs that are defensive apologia to the exclusion of having progress updates, and I think the most demeaning reaction we could have to that is to assume she has no agency in what she's doing.
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Feb 23, 2024 15:49
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Count Roland posted:As someone who mostly lurks this thread to find out the state of the game I find the obsession over the word of the week to be bizarre. For the most part they say little of value, which makes the posts about them also have little value. Yeah, there is nothing particularly noteworthy about them except the whole "call from Sweden" thing was kinda funny. Leaves a feeling of people just wanting to dogpile on CO for any little thing at this point.
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Feb 23, 2024 17:14
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Popete posted:Leaves a feeling of people just wanting to dogpile on CO for any little thing at this point. I mean, they're not wrong to be pissed off at paying $60 for an early alpha of a broken game that probably should never have seen release at all.
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Feb 23, 2024 17:18
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Eric the Mauve posted:I mean, they're not wrong to be pissed off at paying $60 for an early alpha of a broken game that probably should never have seen release at all. Yes but these same goons are also presumably intelligent enough to understand Paradox pushed them to release in an unfinished state and CO is now left holding the bag. The CEO clearly didn't want to keep pushing out meaningless updates but it seems Paradox once again overruled them. In any case if you are angry for wasting 60 bucks, it's your own fault when performance issues were know since before launch and sim problems discovered shortly after that. If you preordered the game and got hosed part of the issue is you.
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Feb 23, 2024 17:33
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No argument there. Anyone who preorders anything deserves what they get, and very often gets what they deserve.
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Feb 23, 2024 17:36
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I didn't really consider it a preorder though - I waited, watched a bunch of youtubers play it, read these forums ... and it looked ok, at first ... ultimately I should have just held off *longer*.
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Feb 23, 2024 17:42
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This is unforunately very par for the course with Paradox. They usually are pretty good about fixing their games up but it can take awhile. That's not to excuse them for releasing a buggy game but I'm not ready to write this off it'll probably still end up good.
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Feb 23, 2024 17:48
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MikeC posted:Yes but these same goons are also presumably intelligent enough to understand Paradox pushed them to release in an unfinished state and CO is now left holding the bag. The CEO clearly didn't want to keep pushing out meaningless updates but it seems Paradox once again overruled them. I kind of disagree, people are allowed to be mad about their purchase. While I see your point, every time they have fixed something it reveals something else that is broke. They told people to refund if they didn’t like the sim aspect, but no one knows if the sim aspect is even working right. There is no roadmap, list of issues or even like a plan going forward other than they are working on it. Especially contrasted against other bad and good launches, this is pretty bad. Tons of studios have had bad launches.
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Feb 23, 2024 17:59
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I still maintain that putting one or three people on low hanging fruit bugfix duty and pushing out a release each tuesday would have completely turned around public perception.
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Feb 23, 2024 18:03
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Popete posted:This is unforunately very par for the course with Paradox. They usually are pretty good about fixing their games up but it can take awhile. That's not to excuse them for releasing a buggy game but I'm not ready to write this off it'll probably still end up good. I held out with thinking like this for a long time, but I admit that at this point I'd be happy to take bets against it ever ending up good. In fact I think it's 50% probable Paradox just pulls the plug on it after 2 or 3 disappointingly-selling DLCs.
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Feb 23, 2024 18:21
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Antigravitas posted:I still maintain that putting one or three people on low hanging fruit bugfix duty and pushing out a release each tuesday would have completely turned around public perception. Yeah, I knew I was rolling the dice to some degree buying shortly after a Paradox launch but my choice was driven by: - Usually there's a trickle of weekly/biweekly fixes to weightings, and in launch condition until people hit lategame it wasn't clear that the problem was "systems are just wildly broken" rather than "some things are weighted wrong". -- As an aside, usually the least interesting part of a Paradox game is the endgame, and that's where bad weightings really show up. In C:S2 the endgame's the part that starts to be interesting, so you can't salvage some enjoyment like you could say launch Vicky3 with its iffy handling of endgame resources/GP diplomacy and warfighting by playing a 50-year scenario with a minors or major. - More importantly, if the devs don't fix glaring issues modders will take a stab. And mods slipped from "should be this weekend" to "idk hopefully next year if all goes well?" just around when that 14-day Steam window closed. The last one's especially irking, as it was an actual timetable that just got blown completely.
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Feb 23, 2024 18:30
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Antigravitas posted:I still maintain that putting one or three people on low hanging fruit bugfix duty and pushing out a release each tuesday would have completely turned around public perception. This would be a good idea. Stellaris (also associated with Paradox) has a custodial team that solely works on existing gameplay balances and fixes, and their updates are usually more exciting than the expansion content. Of course, when I think about whether this model would work for CO, I remember the Industries DLC bug in which building a warehouse would cause dozens of trucks to arrive and cause a months long traffic jam. This took years for them to fix, if I recall.
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Feb 23, 2024 18:36
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I know some people feel it's a radical proposition but I actually think if people preorder something they are entitled to a finished product that, at least in the broad strokes, matches what was promised. Like yes it's prudent to avoid pre-ordering for sure, but the onus is not on the consumer here!
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Feb 23, 2024 21:50
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I play some Vintage Story to relax after a stressful workday and the volume and frequency of stuff being done in that game is hilarious to compare to CS2: https://www.vintagestory.at/blog.html/
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Feb 23, 2024 23:22
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Ms Adequate posted:I know some people feel it's a radical proposition but I actually think if people preorder something they are entitled to a finished product that, at least in the broad strokes, matches what was promised.
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Feb 23, 2024 23:32
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Has anyone considered filing a complaint with the BBB? Or filing a lawsuit for false advertising?
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Feb 23, 2024 23:45
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I do think people are being weird about the word of the week and I imagine there's probably some tone-of-voice lost in typing up updates in English and not Finnish. But then again what else is there to post about? I've been listening to the SC4 soundtrack while playing timberborn? How mods end up releasing I think will be the make-or-break. That'll be a hard landing to stick but will at least buy them some time.
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Feb 24, 2024 00:11
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Jyrraeth posted:But then again what else is there to post about? I've been listening to the SC4 soundtrack while playing timberborn? I've got the thread bookmarked in case there are any developments, and people going on about every word of the week is... well, it's easy to scroll past so it's whatever, but I don't get why anyone's bothering.
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Feb 24, 2024 01:09
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Yeah I'm with you OP, it's super weird that people on a games forum post about the game they paid $60 for and express some frustration that the game they were promised continues to be about as deliverable as Star Citizen. I don't get it either.
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Feb 24, 2024 01:21
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Hey, sorry I didn't pop back in sooner. It's fine to discuss the game, and to discuss the WotW, and to bitch, complain, joke around, whatever. But there's a bit of a vibe about the way some posters talk about that one employee in particular and I'd like it if the talk was more 'ugh the devs suck' and less 'Mariina sounds bored', if you get what I mean? Just a fixation on this one person that comes through in a way I find a bit disquieting. No big deal, not accusing anyone of anything. But let's shift the conversation a bit if we can, so it doesn't get weird.
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Feb 24, 2024 02:48
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah I'm with you OP, it's super weird that people on a games forum post about the game they paid $60 for and express some frustration that the game they were promised continues to be about as deliverable as Star Citizen. I don't get it either. I mean, people can do what they want. If people want to just keep feeling anger about this game every week, go ahead? I was responding to someone asking what else there was to post about. Simply not posting about this game is an option. Posters haven't gotten their own phone call from Sweden forcing them to keep engaging.
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Feb 24, 2024 04:14
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hold on I'm getting a phone call from +46...
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Feb 24, 2024 04:35
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let's make a simcity thread 
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Feb 24, 2024 04:57
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Already is one: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3902492
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Feb 24, 2024 05:02
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Yaoi Gagarin posted:let's make a simcity thread Are there any goon compiled mod packs (last I remembered modders flipped out because..modders) for an easy modded playthrough or is there a lot of dependency hell?
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Feb 24, 2024 05:08
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Minenfeld! posted:Has anyone considered filing a complaint with the BBB? Or filing a lawsuit for false advertising? ah yes, the better business bureau, known for a. actually having any power and b. having any imaginary power over finland registered companies
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Feb 24, 2024 07:40
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I filed my own reports against them with TripAdvisor and Google Maps, so expect lots of changes.
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Feb 24, 2024 15:28
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Bed Bath and Beyond is going to crush Colossal Order.
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Feb 24, 2024 15:32
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after preordering the game (because i am evil and dumb) i tried and tried to get into cs2 last year but ultimately i just gave up and went back to cs1 (which means i shouldn't be posting about it so please don't read this). the combination of a lack of basic detailing (why no tree line tool style functionality in vanilla for example) and also the lack of building variety and terrible vanilla maps has killed it for me for now. the mods that are already available in the thunderstore are leagues better than anything you could get in the early months of cs1 modding, so the future of modding looks very promising to me. but i'd rather wait until we can get custom assets before playing more. this whole debacle is a great reminder of why i never want to work in the games industry lol. if you gently caress up you'll spend at least a year as the target of death threats and other deranged behaviour. people will accuse you of lying to make themselves and others feel more angry at you, people will engage in revisionism to make themselves and others feel more angry at you (apparently simcity 2013 had less launch issues, keep dreaming lol). people will deliberately misread anything you say so they can rage about it. not to mention people telling you that amateur modders will simply 'fix' issues with your game that supposedly your own devs can't do. just overall insane obsession and toxicity from people who have decided you are the enemy, nothing you can say will make anything better. also just insane expectations of how people should be working to serve them? one thing that made me laugh in the early days of the post launch dev diaries was that the author said there would be a patch 'late next week' and someone replied 'does this mean you're not working over the weekend to fix bugs????'. not that the devs (and the publisher) are blameless obviously. had this game been launched in early access (idk if paradox do this btw) expectations would have been significantly different (although people in the ksp2 steam reviews seem to have decided that EA should be a finished game somehow). their comms have been pretty bad and i wonder if this partly because they've never had to manage a crisis before. the very direct style of finnish communication hasn't helped ofc. my reading is they've had very ambitious goals for the game simulation but this proved unachievable given the constraints they face. unachievable due to the limitations of both dev time available allowed by the publisher, but also timing in terms of the features unity has available (thinking back to the workarounds they implemented). and maybe even available computing power in 2023? it seems now they may have scaled the game back too far the other way tbh so now everything is a bit hosed? it just seems like they've made this massive blackbox and they're not sure why stuff is acting like it is. hopefully bugfixes and balancing will help at least partially revive things. i'm optimistic about the game's future but it seems we're a long way off any kind of maturity unfortunately. looking forward to them putting actual quays in when we get the ports dlc next quarter though 
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Feb 24, 2024 15:40
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what a sane take, I appreciate
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Feb 24, 2024 20:50
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Speaking of Words of the Week, there's another one today, and the reason why I'm compelled to post it is because they straight up say: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/co-word-of-the-week-14.1625153/ quote:How do you plan to get out of this mess? / What is in the works to fix Cities: Skylines II? / What will you do to set things right for the disaster launch of CS2? and on modding: quote:Why wasn’t modding support available at release? I think this is the first time they've come out and said things aren't in a great state and they need to do better, kind of relieving to finally see. There's also a few other things in there I didn't post if you want to read for yourself. It seems like a different approach they're finally taking on communication.
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Feb 26, 2024 16:09
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Their processes must be in absolute shambles if it takes this much effort to release fixes.
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Feb 26, 2024 16:19
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Antigravitas posted:Their processes must be in absolute shambles if it takes this much effort to release fixes. Colossal Disorder
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Feb 26, 2024 16:47
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For all the nice sounding words, and I cop to having become deeply cynical about CS2, what I just read about modding in particular amounts to "yeah we sure would LIKE to get full modding support done, but ehhhh I dunno when or if it's ever gonna." It's actually a backing off from "definitely by end of 2024" to "TBD". Which is good insofar as it's more truthful, I guess.
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Feb 26, 2024 16:48
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Antigravitas posted:Their processes must be in absolute shambles if it takes this much effort to release fixes. Weekly releases are a huge lift for any team as each release needs to be QAd, bugs fixed, QAd again, put through launch checklist review, then each build for all platforms all need to be pushed and checked, then distributed to first parties, patch notes written, documentation needs to be updated, and everything needs to be logged. Then you have to launch and then monitor and do live ops for a bit to make sure nothing else pops up. Big companies have entire build management teams for this process. And while all the checks are going, no one can touch that build. So if you're doing weekly patches, it easily takes a day out of every 5 day work week to prep and ship a patch.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:33
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I guess they are being upfront about it but it really shines a spotlight on why they thought the game was ready for release in the first place, which they supposedly made the decision to release and it wasn't Paradox (questionable). I really just want to know when/if the background simulation can work reasonably well. Modding/DLC is all well and good but if the simulation isn't working sensibly then none of that really matters to me.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:36
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Other projects manage to release small fixes in rapid succession. It's purely a process issue. See Warframe or Guild Wars 2 for examples with more players and higher complexity. If a project can't have a few people do code cleanup and small bug fixes without interrupting larger feature work: Also a process issue.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:47
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Popete posted:I guess they are being upfront about it but it really shines a spotlight on why they thought the game was ready for release in the first place, which they supposedly made the decision to release and it wasn't Paradox (questionable). Kinda feels like an either-or for me, either they get asset mods up and running ASAP and I can ignore the lovely simulation and build a fun looking city with actual variety, or they only get the simulation fixed/improved and I can ignore the lack of variety and concentrate on actual mechanics. Unfortunately I have very little faith they have the know-how nor desire to improve the simulation design side, and definitely not in a timely manner. I do have more faith in the community to be able to workaround and patch things at least, so hoping the mods situation improves at least. Antigravitas posted:Other projects manage to release small fixes in rapid succession. It's purely a process issue. See Warframe or Guild Wars 2 for examples with more players and higher complexity. It's kinda funny reading their posts about their dev process, as a dev who has worked in SaaS for a while. They're talking about these long QA processes and different stages of development and such contributing to these months-long waits for patches. Meanwhile in the SaaS space, we're all pushing releases to production every day, with more refined companies pushing changes to production as soon as they get merged. Automated testing, observability, etc., it's not all as possible with games as with SaaS, where you control the servers and data and can easily move forward and rollback and such, but surely there's something better they can be doing than taking months to release a single patch. piratepilates fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Feb 26, 2024 |
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Feb 26, 2024 17:47
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I realize this is probably a minority view but I really don't care about mods if the actual game simulation is broke. I want a fun working base game first and foremost and I really dislike the crutch of games having to rely on the community to "fix" them.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:50
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Popete posted:I realize this is probably a minority view but I really don't care about mods if the actual game simulation is broke. I want a fun working base game first and foremost and I really dislike the crutch of games having to rely on the community to "fix" them. At this point I think the best hope for fixing the sim IS mods.
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Feb 26, 2024 18:12
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