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A Moose posted:It is kinda funny that people are like "pyros aren't that bad, you just have to plan your entire base layout based around them starting fires in random places at random times". Like they can't ever be alone because if it takes too long for someone to go arrest them they can do more damage. They can't be assigned to do anything important, in case they randomly stop doing it to go start fires, thus disabling 2 pawns (themselves and whoever has to go arrest them/repair the damage they cause). Like I would never trust a pyro to be a doctor. There will be times when you don't have 2 pawns to spare. Even if everything in your base is fireproof, your food and stockpiles aren't. They can just go light that bionic spine on fire and you better be able to go put it out quick.  my pyros started like 3-4 fires total iirc 
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Feb 26, 2024 16:20
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SniperWoreConverse posted:
yeah objectively they're bad but not egregiously bad... but instead of being an interesting challenge they're just so goddamn annoying to deal with and "stupid uncontrollable bullshit that randomly derails your plans in a strategy game" makes them subjectively feel much worse than they otherwise would be. hence all the hate and players banishing or executing them for the crime of being unfun.
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Feb 26, 2024 16:42
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yeah, stuff that removes player control is generally bad, imo. gourmands that go on pigging sprees are also bad. i play randy and like big massive colonies that recruit anyone they can get their hands on - one firestarter among twenty is not that big a deal. if you play smaller colonies then pyros will be commensurately more annoying, i reckon
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Feb 26, 2024 16:55
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I've never had an issue with pyros. Every time they go on a fire starting spree another pawn always ends up following them around and putting out the fire as soon as they light it because I've got firefighting at the highest priority.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:32
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Again, any argument in Rimworld which asserts that something is no big deal because you can have another pawn take care of it, only holds water until all of your pawns are doing something and then it’s a multiple crisis, if you haven’t had it happen to you yet, it is yet.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:37
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I don't think that you can put out a fire that's started on an antigrain warhead before it explodes, or any other mortar type for that matter. Likewise if they get into the chemfuel you're just going to have 2 dead pawns plus a huge inferno to deal with
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Feb 26, 2024 17:39
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LonsomeSon posted:Again, any argument in Rimworld which asserts that something is no big deal because you can have another pawn take care of it, only holds water until all of your pawns are doing something and then it’s a multiple crisis, if you haven’t had it happen to you yet, it is yet. food poisoning is nbd until your only ambulatory dude is hauling a bleeding-out colonist at 20% movement speed
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Feb 26, 2024 17:41
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yeah that's another thing, because i do these hellworld runs and feel bad kicking people out i end up with a bunch of people regardless of if they suck or not, so I always have a shitload of people even if it's a high stress earlygame having to eat kibble made of bug rear end, or the worst possible nutrient paste imaginable for like 1 entire year until the indoor farms are fully up and running. This at least means stuff like pyros are not that big a deal even if we have ugly nudists who will immediately pass out if they try to go outside, or else constantly be unhappy they have to wear rags, because everyone has deranged skillsets that are terrible and weird and everyone hates their job or is incapable of hauling and cleaning or something stupid as hell. This also means i'm gonna be on the same map for quite a while a lot of times, it can get sorta dicey when you actually really cannot migrate because it's death weather 100% of the time and you'd basically have to settle every tile and build an emergency shelter or something and hope.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:48
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jokes posted:food poisoning is nbd until your only ambulatory dude is hauling a bleeding-out colonist at 20% movement speed yeah i keep all pawns who are capable of medical with 3 meds at all times. When this person is incapable of medical you're in DEEP poo poo
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Feb 26, 2024 17:49
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Me, screaming at the monitor: "Stop puking in open wounds!"
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Feb 26, 2024 17:52
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I had two pyros from Alpha Genetics Expanded from them being Efreet (fire demons). One got a diplomatic marriage request and I was all over that - then she died on the way out when a raid showed up so I stashed her corpse in the freezer until a resurrection serum came up. The other is a great hauler with the whole ignoring terrain costs thing but he's probably done 4 fire break sprees in the two years I've had him, and 3 of those wound up having the 7 or so other colonists have to come over to stop it because he was setting fire to the outer fruit tree/devilstrand farmland which got big enough you need several pawns to clear the fire while he's still setting more.
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Feb 26, 2024 17:57
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:yeah, stuff that removes player control is generally bad, imo. gourmands that go on pigging sprees are also bad. I once had a gourmand leave the sniper line and run straight at the enemy seige camp in order to eat their packaged survival meals
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Feb 26, 2024 19:51
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Mzbundifund posted:I once had a gourmand leave the sniper line and run straight at the enemy seige camp in order to eat their packaged survival meals You're not you when you're hungry.
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Feb 26, 2024 19:56
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Pyros have never been bad for me. I never build walls out of wood, micromanagement stops the fires, and you can just toss in the firefoam packs into any place that would be really bad if it burned. Even when the colony is getting wrecked by a raid and everyones breaking you can still probably get a pawn to put them out, and if you can't you're losing anyway. Chemical Fascination or any permanent mood debuff are my auto passes. It's way more devastating to have someone go around insulting everyone than a fire. Side note insults shouldn't be more devastating than family members dying but this needs in this game are wildly imbalanced without a mod.
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Feb 26, 2024 20:04
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Mzbundifund posted:I once had a gourmand leave the sniper line and run straight at the enemy seige camp in order to eat their packaged survival meals The snack attack
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Feb 26, 2024 20:05
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Chemical fascination can be mitigated by just giving them a genetic dependency for all of the drugs
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Feb 26, 2024 20:11
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LonsomeSon posted:Again, any argument in Rimworld which asserts that something is no big deal because you can have another pawn take care of it, only holds water until all of your pawns are doing something and then it’s a multiple crisis, if you haven’t had it happen to you yet, it is yet. But literally any pawn breaking in that case could doom your base. Someone going on a sad wander out your door, letting the enemies in would be just as bad. I maintain my belief that most players are more scared of fire than they need to be. You should respect fire. Definitely prioritize putting it out above anything else. But it's not a big deal as long as you give it its due attention.
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Feb 26, 2024 20:12
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QuarkJets posted:Chemical fascination can be mitigated by just giving them a genetic dependency for all of the drugs Genius
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Feb 26, 2024 20:16
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Extremely rare, are we talking about the same game? 2 pawns running away from the firing line can easily kill a colony. I can often prevent a sad wander, but Pyro and Gourmand breaks are random and unpreventable. If Pyros had a button you could press that made them break immediately with a 72h guarantee of no more Pyro breaks, but with the downside of not gaining catharsis, or even a small malus, then they would be way better
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Feb 26, 2024 20:24
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It’s a simple statement of principle folks, it already has in it language which addresses those comebacks. In particular pyromaniacs can roll a firebug spree Just Because, not only due to their emotional state, rendering a whole chunk only partially related to actual game states. You still need to build with fire mitigation and fighting in mind because there are so many other sources of fire, including the environment around you, so turning away or volunteering pyros for suicide missions doesn’t at all reduce that gameplay burden. It just saves you from having an extra source of fire which requires micromanagement and is way more dangerous than a no-batteries Zzzt for how widespread it can get if you don’t have good positioning when it goes off. Anytime I’ve got a wounded pyro on the ground they’re at the back of the list for getting captured, and they’re getting released back into the world unless it’s so early on that they’re my first source of some critical skill, they’re already 8+ in it, and they’ve got flames. I do a lot of catch-and-release after raids, unless our side got hosed up pretty badly, for the non-crimes-against-pawns source of medical experience patching them up. Once I get armor and a decent gun in every hand it becomes a main source for that since the Good Guys are getting hit less and those hits aren’t nearly as bad.
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Feb 26, 2024 20:27
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Mzbundifund posted:I once had a gourmand leave the sniper line and run straight at the enemy seige camp in order to eat their packaged survival meals lmao
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Feb 26, 2024 20:33
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QuarkJets posted:Extremely rare, are we talking about the same game? 2 pawns running away from the firing line can easily kill a colony. I can often prevent a sad wander, but Pyro and Gourmand breaks are random and unpreventable. I'd say the advantage of those traits is that the break types are usually harmless, so if they do have low mood and break you know it's not going to be as bad as it could be.
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Feb 26, 2024 20:35
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You can just manage chemical fascination by not having a lot of drugs on hand. Like yeah have fun drinking psychite tea, your life sucks. Nobody needs to arrest them or babysit them and they're only hurting themselves. Gourmand can be annoying if it happens during a raid, or if food is tight, but it at least comes with an upside of being really good at cooking, and liking cooking, so they're basically always pumping out food. If pyro had any kind of upside, maybe I wouldn't kick every single one out. Its the combined factors of: -Only extreme mental break is fire starting spree. This isn't so bad on its own, just keep them happy -Incapable of putting out fires - this sucks, because what if there's a fire from other sources and they're the closest pawn? But fine, maybe it isn't relevant all the time -Will randomly start fires, regardless of mental state. This sucks, because if your colony is mid-late game and you're not currently losing, this is your main source of fires. Like, if Pyro also made them good at cooking, or like good at ANYTHING, any single reason to give them a chance. Even if they were the best doctor/blacksmith/tailor on the planet, the first time they destroyed something expensive, vital, or time consuming to put out I'd rightfully exile them for their crime.
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Feb 26, 2024 20:59
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I don't think traits have to be balanced because you're not picking traits. You're dealing with people who exist. You can have traits that are just bad, and you get interesting gameplay choices resulting from how to deal with them. There are traits that just make mental breaks more likely. And that's okay. You just have to deal with that, one way or another. Pyromaniac is at least an interesting negative trait to have to deal with. Personally the trait I hate most is slow learner because it's not just slow, but effectively zero learning for all practical purposes. Not much you can ever do with that pawn other than let them haul and cut stone forever. Incapable of fighting fires is really bad. Up there with incapable of violence. That probably is the worst part of the pyro trait.
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Feb 26, 2024 21:06
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Yeah there are so many other sources of fire! It's extremely funny, though, imagining one guy watching his village burn down, his family and friends who aren't trapped inside of it and screaming sounds which seem like they couldn't be made by humans desperately trying to fight even part of the blaze, huge anime eyes trying to take in the entire scene at once while he giggles gleefully.
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Feb 26, 2024 21:14
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A Moose posted:You can just manage chemical fascination by not having a lot of drugs on hand. Like yeah have fun drinking psychite tea, your life sucks. Nobody needs to arrest them or babysit them and they're only hurting themselves. Just give the chemical fascination dude a joint/tea every other day? Having joints/tea on hand is a good idea anyway, to be used only when people's moods are borderline.
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Feb 26, 2024 21:25
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jokes posted:Just give the chemical fascination dude a joint/tea every other day? Having joints/tea on hand is a good idea anyway, to be used only when people's moods are borderline. Joints are really bad because pawns build up a big resistance and then start going catatonic/dying without smoking weed. Tea is ok but the issue comes in them getting their hands on a random drug you weren't aware was sitting on your map, usually after a raid or something.
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Feb 26, 2024 21:29
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Yeah you'll wonder where Urist McDirtmole has disappeared to and find him with three injector needles shoved into each eyeball amid a mountain of rotting corpses
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Feb 26, 2024 21:35
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Doltos posted:Joints are really bad because pawns build up a big resistance and then start going catatonic/dying without smoking weed. Tea is ok but the issue comes in them getting their hands on a random drug you weren't aware was sitting on your map, usually after a raid or something.
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Feb 26, 2024 21:36
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You can set drug policies to make sure nobody ever gets addicted and only uses them under the right circumstances (like when they're sad because their wife got eaten by a coyote or whatever)
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Feb 26, 2024 21:39
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I dunno I've schedule only use when below 25% mood and have had plenty of pawns get up a massive tolerance to the point where they're ripping 5 joints a day and breaking in between it
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Feb 26, 2024 22:04
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LonsomeSon posted:It's extremely funny, though, imagining one guy watching his village burn down, his family and friends who aren't trapped inside of it and screaming sounds which seem like they couldn't be made by humans desperately trying to fight even part of the blaze, huge anime eyes trying to take in the entire scene at once while he giggles gleefully. that doesn't sound extremely funny
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Feb 26, 2024 22:07
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Doltos posted:I dunno I've schedule only use when below 25% mood and have had plenty of pawns get up a massive tolerance to the point where they're ripping 5 joints a day and breaking in between it Otherwise, as you've noticed, they'll just get high until they're a non-functional mess whenever things are rough. Which, I mean, understandable impulse, but it won't help with survival.
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Feb 26, 2024 22:08
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Eiba posted:You want to set the mood and the period. Below a certain threshold and once every three days. I believe that will keep them from taking the drugs any more frequently than that. Ahhh that makes a lot of sense. They're definitely stacking tolerance on top of themselves because they'll break, slam some weed, and then smoke to recover their mood
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Feb 26, 2024 22:13
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QuarkJets posted:Chemical fascination can be mitigated by just giving them a genetic dependency for all of the drugs This is such a hilarious and ingenious workaround. Checking into a rehab clinic and leaving it as an even more addicted, albeit functional, addict is so Rimworld 
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Feb 26, 2024 23:21
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Is there a way to disable raids without also canning the enemy attackers that come as part of quests? E.g. someone wants to join the colony and they have 1-2 attackers who will follow them or whatever. I'm using Incident Disabler and I'm wondering if I should be using a more granular mod (e.g. Raid and Event manager) instead.
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Feb 26, 2024 23:25
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:that doesn't sound extremely funny try imagining it harder?
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Feb 26, 2024 23:49
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My pyros don’t get catharsis 
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Feb 26, 2024 23:59
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Anyone try a Naked Brutality start with a pyromaniac? That sounds like something that would ride the line between stressful and fun (assuming you don't enslave the first person you see as a personal fire extinguisher). Hell, do a custom scenario where everyone is guaranteed pyromania and see what happens!
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Feb 27, 2024 00:00
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HelloSailorSign posted:My pyros don’t get catharsis When a pyro goes on a fire starting spree because their mood is low and it replaced a mental break, they will get catharsis. Pyros can also randomly spree just for fun no matter what their mood is, and since it’s not technically a mental break they get no catharsis. If you are keeping their mood high then all their sprees will be the non-catharsis type, although you will be getting fewer sprees overall since you aren’t also getting the mental break ones.
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Feb 27, 2024 02:20
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