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Gnoman posted:One of the stories Thom tells is of "the giants Mosk and Merk fighting with spears of fire that reached around the world", which is pretty likely to be an allusion to a thermonuclear war. I adore those stories. They're specific enough that it absolutely could refer to our age. They're also vague enough that they could absolutely just be stories - how many cultures have a story of giants fighting in the heavens? Or of someone flying to the moon? It's just wonderful.
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Feb 22, 2024 01:12
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Gnoman posted:One of the stories Thom tells is of "the giants Mosk and Merk fighting with spears of fire that reached around the world", which is pretty likely to be an allusion to a thermonuclear war. The whole timey wimey real world ancient history/one day future thing was always a fun allusion. Like, that's clearly America and Moscow in the story. It probably would not be something that I remembered as fondly as I do if it was made explicit though
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Feb 22, 2024 01:34
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Mosk also fought "Elsbet, the Queen of All", obviously Elizabeth. There's also "Materese the Healer", Mother Teresa, and "Anla the Wise Counselor", Ann loving Landers. And Lenn who flew to the moon, and his daughter Salya. John Glenn and Sally Ride.
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Feb 22, 2024 01:44
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pik_d posted:And Lenn who flew to the moon, and his daughter Salya. John Glenn and Sally Ride. In the belly of an Eagle no less. Which is very funny given that "Eagle" was the callsign of the lunar module for Apollo 11. John Glenn wasn't on Apollo 11. He was never on any Apollo missions. He only did Mercury and flew on the Space Shuttle once.
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Feb 22, 2024 01:53
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pik_d posted:Mosk also fought "Elsbet, the Queen of All", obviously Elizabeth. Salya might also be Salyut, and Lenn flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle ("The Eagle has landed" Neil Armstrong fame)
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Feb 22, 2024 01:55
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Feb 22, 2024 03:35
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Watch Rome again to honor him He was good in RRR, and he wasn't a terrible Punisher. And the Mercedes Benz emblem in the museum is a pretty clear callback to a previous age being ours.
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Feb 22, 2024 07:36
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BTW I could have sworn this topic came up more recently than hundreds of pages ago, butLibluini posted:That's because Robert Jordan is a Southern US Puritan who has Ideas about proper conduct and what to show. We're talking about someone who was convinced his fantasy world had no brothels because with the sexes being equal in Randland, there was no prostitution. Just came up on this bit — TFOH posted:“I hate to lay this burden on you, child,” Thom added gently, “but if she can be helped, you are the only one of us who can do it. I know how to take a man out of his miseries. Give him a swift kick, or else get him drunk and find him a pr—” He harrumphed loudly, trying to make it seem a cough, and knuckled his mustaches. The one bad thing about him seeing her as a daughter was that now sometimes he seemed to think she was perhaps twelve. So uh ... yeah
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Feb 23, 2024 03:47
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The show has a lot of problems but the high notes are very high and for everything else the books are still right there. I like some of the changes and additions, but I feel like the show has missed on a lot of the high notes that I really wanted to see from the books. For example in season 2, I really wanted them to nail the Igntar redemption arc, Lan instructing Rand on how to interact with the Amyrlin, Rand's duel with Turoc and the Battle of Falme(sounding of the Horn, final charge of Bornhald, etc). But all of those moments fell completely flat in the show. I didn't really mind that they cut *flicker flicker*, or Rand's journey through the shadow world. I thought they nailed Verin, and the additions with Moiraine's family were good. Overall I think they've missed more than they've hit, but it's still an enjoyable enough show to watch. And I'll be hyped to watch season 3 in 2026.
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Feb 27, 2024 21:14
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Agree with all of that but on the other hand Turoc gearing up for the showdown only to get hit with a beam attack was pretty funny tbh.
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Feb 27, 2024 22:20
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Turning the Turoc duel into an Indiana Jones joke was funny and I LOLed. But I was still sad not to see it faithfully adapted. It also ties into how it bothers me that Lan should have been training the boys at weapons for the past 2 seasons and hasn't done it all yet. It's missed character development for all 4 of them, but especially for Rand and Lan.
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Feb 27, 2024 23:10
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Mat Cauthon posted:Agree with all of that but on the other hand Turoc gearing up for the showdown only to get hit with a beam attack was pretty funny tbh. Yeah I loved it, and it fits well for a TV show that has to condense stuff. That said, the halfsies stuff on Ingtar sucked, it felt like they filmed it and then were told to cut a few minutes and that's where it came from. I can't think of any other reason to sort of go down that path then not actually pull the trigger.
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Feb 27, 2024 23:11
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They've cut Be'lal so I'm glad Turak gave us our dude getting absolutely chumped moment
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Feb 27, 2024 23:19
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They basically didn't set up Ingtar at all. So it would have had zero impact even if they had done the scene properly.
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Feb 27, 2024 23:20
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pik_d posted:it felt like they filmed it and then were told to cut a few minutes and that's where it came from. I can't think of any other reason to sort of go down that path then not actually pull the trigger. This is exactly what happened, apparently. One or two more episodes a season fixes a lot of issues, I guess.
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Feb 27, 2024 23:33
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That I can agree on; Amazon ought to have given Rafe more time.
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Feb 28, 2024 00:25
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The show absolutely needs more time, but I don't think that this would fix everything. It's pretty clear to me that the show runners have very little interest in telling any of the ta'veren's stories (or for that matter, Nynaeve's) and that while they're much more willing to tell Egwene's, they're only willing to do so in ways that erase the book character's flaws and vulnerabilities. As a result, I don't really think the show even holds up on its own merits; it doesn't really have its own merits because it's so wrapped up in its resentment of the (both perceived and real) flaws of its source. It would actually be far better almost entirely as a Pike vehicle or as an original fantasy story more focused on the parts of WoT that Rafe does like, but of course capitalism being what it is you can't possibly be allowed to make an original property nowadays so we get gestalt instead.
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Feb 28, 2024 05:00
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The books are basically impossible to adapt to live action without an unlimited budget. Most of the books are very internal and a lot of the magic isn’t flashy. It’s fine for what it is but if you were to take the WoT name off it I don’t think anyone would give a poo poo about the show.
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Feb 28, 2024 06:21
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Ravenson posted:The show absolutely needs more time, but I don't think that this would fix everything. It's pretty clear to me that the show runners have very little interest in telling any of the ta'veren's stories (or for that matter, Nynaeve's) and that while they're much more willing to tell Egwene's, they're only willing to do so in ways that erase the book character's flaws and vulnerabilities. As a result, I don't really think the show even holds up on its own merits; it doesn't really have its own merits because it's so wrapped up in its resentment of the (both perceived and real) flaws of its source. It would actually be far better almost entirely as a Pike vehicle or as an original fantasy story more focused on the parts of WoT that Rafe does like, but of course capitalism being what it is you can't possibly be allowed to make an original property nowadays so we get gestalt instead. This is an insane take in a thread that has really seen Some poo poo, god drat. "Little interest in telling any of the ta'veren's stories" lol man cmon.
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Feb 28, 2024 06:44
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Gwaihir posted:This is an insane take in a thread that has really seen Some poo poo, god drat. "Little interest in telling any of the ta'veren's stories" lol man cmon. Yeah the characters need more screentime but it feels like but people forget how little some of the characters did in the first book or two.
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Feb 28, 2024 07:05
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah the characters need more screentime but it feels like but people forget how little some of the characters did in the first book or two. Next season we're going to the Aiel Waste; these two seasons really are more about getting the characters in the right position for book four so they have to some degree covered more like two and a half books. We can see aspects of this in how Rand runs away from his friends (which he does in TDR, though under drastically different circumstances and motivations), how Mat goes on an adventure from Tar Valon to a southern city (again a TDR thing; if they'd been able to get Thom's actor he likely would have run into Mat in the show too), and how Aviendha has joined the party (introduced in TDR). The Stone of Tear is probably getting skipped until a later season altogether. Also, Ishamael is dead. Gwaihir posted:This is an insane take in a thread that has really seen Some poo poo, god drat. "Little interest in telling any of the ta'veren's stories" lol man cmon. Rand and Mat are entirely different characters in the two mediums; book Rand by the end of book three had trained for months under a master swordsman, gotten a basic channeling skill through training under duress, led an adventuring party, faked his way through a high level political event, and was consistently able to avoid being pulled into both the Aes Sedai's schemes for him and the Forsaken's. TV Rand trained with an old man and has no skill, happily embraced channeling and sought out a teacher, has never been in charge of anyone, has no experience in politics, and spent most of the second season deciding which scary lady he wanted to have in charge of his life. Even ignoring the Mat actor kerfluffle, since there's no reason to think that was the showrunner's fault, he's still a guy whose happy family was replaced for drama, quickly abandons his friends (book Mat would never run away from an upset Egwene; he'd find out why she was upset and make the cause pay all while bitching to himself about how he hates how much she whines about things), and proudly embraces being a Hero of the Horn even though his book counterpart would absolutely hate being bound to the Horn on principle and also he's done absolutely nothing to suggest he's worthy of the title. Perrin meanwhile spent season two almost completely out of focus, most of it catching up with his book one plot and the rest being an accessory to Aviendha's adventure. And then there's Nynaeve, who you didn't quote me on but I'm going to rant about anyway because you've got me started on it! Her Accepted test was absolutely loving butchered, rendered incoherent by turning her three tests from "Don't go, you've got the upper hand over your enemy, you're enjoying the power", "Don't go, you can't abandon your people, they need you," and "Don't go, you've got the man of your dreams, you can skip all the struggles of your life," to "Run through the doorway because old family is dead so there's no reason to stay here," "Run through the doorway because the Aes Sedai are through it and they can help so there's no reason to stay here" and "Run through the doorway because your fake new family is dead so there's no reason to stay here." Do they not understand why staying in the false world is supposed to be a temptation? And of course, the third doorway failing and reappearing goes from something Nynaeve specifically forces to happen after she fucks up to something that happens arbitrarily. Then there's the finale, where she's turned into an impotent failure who can neither force herself to feel angry at Elayne's suffering to fix it nor apply even basic first aid techniques, then proudly marches the princess with the injured leg to the top of a tower so that she can sit in the background, doing nothing as Elayne heals Rand. At least she saved Eg- *checks notes* At least they rewrote how channeling, linking, and the a'dam works so that Rafe Judkins' favorite character could escape an inescapable situation because she's just that special, meaning that Nynaeve can't even orchestrate her rescue because she doesn't need to be rescued.
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Feb 28, 2024 07:35
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Gwaihir posted:This is an insane take in a thread that has really seen Some poo poo, god drat.
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Feb 28, 2024 08:19
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Gwaihir posted:This is an insane take in a thread that has really seen Some poo poo, god drat.
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Feb 28, 2024 13:32
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Yeah I don't like the show but almost all of your complaints are just not correct. Except maybe the 'book Matt would have hated being tied to the Horn' thing, that's kind of an interesting idea and maybe correct. Invalid Validation posted:The books are basically impossible to adapt to live action without an unlimited budget. Most of the books are very internal and a lot of the magic isn’t flashy. It’s fine for what it is but if you were to take the WoT name off it I don’t think anyone would give a poo poo about the show. There are a billion ways that talented directors and writers and actors can translate internal thoughts, emotions and other non-verbal character stuff from a book, to something communicable via screen. That's like half the job of adapting almost any book. It just takes some genuinely talent, particularly you need great writers. Unfortunately, talented screen writers are pretty much the rarest commodity in existence it seems. Also, the magic not being a flashy visual thing (to most inhabitants of the world) could have been a cool and unique thing about the show vs other CW-esque high fantasy adaptation series. Make the magic super subtle. I mean, look at Star Wars IV, V and VI... you don't need flashy effects to make 'magic' interesting to viewers, in fact it can be more effective when there's less flashy visual crap around it. That's not to say there isn't flashy stuff in the early books too (fireballs, walls of fog, whatever) of course. (I actually think the show's visualisation of the weaves is pretty good, I just think it's way less interesting than if they did things the way the books do it, where a lot of it is from the perspective of non-channelers who can't see the weaves, at least in the earlier books. Also it would have probably saved them some vfx budget to spend on other goods stuff.)
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Feb 28, 2024 13:40
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Gwaihir posted:This is an insane take in a thread that has really seen Some poo poo, god drat. "Little interest in telling any of the ta'veren's stories" lol man cmon.
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Feb 28, 2024 14:16
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El Grillo posted:Except maybe the 'book Matt would have hated being tied to the Horn' thing, that's kind of an interesting idea and maybe correct. Two passages from AMoL "No, you are not one of us," Hend said. "Be at ease. Though you have done more than enough to earn a place, you have not been chosen. I do not know why." "Noal. One of the heroes of the Horn. It bloody made sense. Jain Farstrider himself. Well, you wouldn’t find Mat trading places with him. Noal might enjoy it, but Mat wouldn’t dance at another man’s command. Not for immortality itself, no he wouldn’t."
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Feb 28, 2024 16:36
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Mat, a character famous for always being 100% truthful and honest with himself in his internal monologues.
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Feb 28, 2024 16:42
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yeah i think if mat is thinking negative thoughts about being heroic it is because he is 100% about to be or would be heroic. he spends like his whole first command in a protracted battle thinking about how he only wants to escape yet just keeps running into more soldiers rallying to him while finding more enemies to destroy. that's just his coping mechanism for danger.
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Feb 28, 2024 16:53
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latinotwink1997 posted:Two passages from AMoL Lends evidence to the idea that the adaptation is another turning of the Wheel, one where Mat has gotten over whatever internal conflicts that kept him from accepting his role as a hero of the horn. That said, I always liked the idea that there are archetypal heroes not linked to the horn that can get spun out as needed - Mat, Perrin, etc - as a another way for the pattern to correct things. Resistance to authority is obviously a core aspect for Mat but also a big part of the character is the fear of disappointing others and thus avoiding responsibility so as to eliminate the possibility of having other people rely on him because there's a risk (in his mind) that he could one day fail. Which I think the show version of Mat nailed pretty well tbh.
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Feb 28, 2024 17:01
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Mat embracing his Heroness happens while the Horn is active and he can remember all of his past lives which would naturally make him a bit different to Mat, random bloke from the Two Rivers. I highly doubt he's going to be in the cool zen vibe for the rest of the series, especially when this is probably what makes his memories hosed.
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Feb 28, 2024 17:19
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Gwaihir posted:This is an insane take in a thread that has really seen Some poo poo, god drat. "Little interest in telling any of the ta'veren's stories" lol man cmon. The 14 minutes of Sad Warder in S01E05 really just broke some brains. People are still tilted about it. Ravenson posted:Rand and Mat are entirely different characters in the two mediums Mat is like 3 entirely different characters in the first 3 books of the series, let alone between mediums. in TGH Mat absolutely bails on Rand when he and Perrin find him in the bushes with the dragon banner. The whole "ride or die for his friends" Mat doesn't really become a core component until TDR.
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Feb 28, 2024 17:46
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CainFortea posted:The 14 minutes of Sad Warder in S01E05 really just broke some brains. People are still tilted about it. She had an entire episode about her, but apparently the show runners have no interest in telling her story.
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Feb 28, 2024 18:00
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A lot of people seem to be real real mad that the show is spending time telling Egwene and Nynaeve's story rather than focusing on the three boys . . .which is, I mean, what series do they think this is
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Feb 28, 2024 18:05
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I think a lot of people just wanted to see their favorite moments from the books on screen, and the show isn't doing that. Those moments get cut like the flicker flicker scene, or they get done poorly like Ingtar sacrifice or Lan preparing Rand to meet with Siuan.
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Feb 28, 2024 18:05
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I'm just so mad that Perrin isn't getting his book plot where he got 90% of his characterization in the first 4 books since RJ didn't know how many books he was writing, then 10 books of wheel spinning and backsliding. How dare they not remain true to the books.
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Feb 28, 2024 18:09
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If Rafe doesn't give us an entire episode of Elayne taking a bath then what the gently caress are we even doing here
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Feb 28, 2024 18:34
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Ravenson is right about the show runners doing drastic changes to the main character plots that don't seem to arise just because of various restraints. Like, why is Mat's family super lovely now? Why is Rand being taught swordship from a crazy old guy instead of one of the characters that doesn't have lot to do? And why, from the jump, was Perrin given a maudlin wife death story? I think it's because Rafe et al think this is interesting fodder for stories. I just don't agree.
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Feb 28, 2024 18:36
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DTurtle posted:Nynaeve in S02E08 also broke brains. The narrative of "The show is just ignoring the boys entirely" hit fever pitch on that episode in particular. But yea, I always get a kick out of "She didn't do anything that entire episode!!" Yea. You think maybe she's gonna have some feelings about that in the future maybe?
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Feb 28, 2024 18:38
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- To sympathise a character who's an annoying poo poo in the first book - Because it's been pushed into S3 - As a quick shorthand to contextualise Perrin's issues with violence Like you can argue about the efficacy of the changes but acting like it's just for lols is ridiculous
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Feb 28, 2024 18:41
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Soul Glo posted:yeah i think if mat is thinking negative thoughts about being heroic it is because he is 100% about to be or would be heroic. It’s a great yada yada sequence. “I saddled up and made haste to get out of dodge, yada yada, now I command an army and cut off Couladin’s head”
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Feb 28, 2024 18:41
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