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Now the joke's on Plato because every billionaire thinks they're a philosopher.
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Feb 28, 2024 20:16
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Nessus posted:So America was colonized during medieval times then? Yeah it was the "Renaissance" and is completely distinct from both the modern and medieval eras. The rule of thumb is if the event was covered by CK it's medieval, by EU it's Renaissance, by Vicky & HOI it's modern.
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Feb 28, 2024 20:22
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Tunicate posted:I thought it was pretty transparent that the philosopher advocating a philosopher king controlling all of society was an obviously self-serving wish fulfillment, but I guess some philosophers might have found the idea appealing? Diogenes would say yes if they offered him the job, take a poo poo on the throne and leave
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Feb 28, 2024 20:37
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Tulip posted:Over in cspam the dividing line for modern vs pre modern is 1789, which I realize is so that people who want to bite each other over spanish civil war minutia are quarantined, but always leaves me with "what the hell do we do with the 16th 17th and 18th centuries? Do we just memory hole them or are we saying the 7 Years War was medieval?" I think 1789 is a common dividing line between early modern and modern. It's kind of weird terminology but it's also pretty stuck
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Feb 28, 2024 20:57
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you can say "renaissance" but it sticks in the craw if you're talking about, like, the 30 year's war or the war of the roses or any of the other basically-apocalyptic wars during that time. or anything non-european. or the witch hunts and counter-reformation inquisition and whatever.
bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 20:58
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Early Modern (in caps, it's not just the early bit of Modern) is probably a more common phrasing than Renaissance, well depending on where maybe? To me the latter is more specifically art and literature type stuff. Wars of the Roses are to me late mediaeval but of course it gets fuzzy.
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Feb 28, 2024 21:42
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Kylaer posted:The best samurai drama is The Wire. I would like to think that the best medieval drama is The Untouchables. Okay you live in sin and murder people, fine. But wait, you didn't pay your tithes to the pope or the emperor? DIE!
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Feb 28, 2024 21:45
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Tulip posted:Over in cspam the dividing line for modern vs pre modern is 1789, which I realize is so that people who want to bite each other over spanish civil war minutia are quarantined, but always leaves me with "what the hell do we do with the 16th 17th and 18th centuries? Do we just memory hole them or are we saying the 7 Years War was medieval?" for the purposes of thread delineation in cspam we are saying that the "early modern" period is "pre-modern" in the sense of "before the modern period". i would say it's not unusual to consider the "early modern" as a separate era from "modern" practically speaking even though "early modern" seems to imply that it's part of "modern". you are welcome to talk about the seven years war in the pre-modern thread to your heart's content.
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Feb 28, 2024 21:54
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feedmegin posted:You can probably get away with working class London (think Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels). That’s because they are Italian (actors). Incredibly pedantic video about Latin in Barbarians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7uBUCZgpw8
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Feb 28, 2024 21:58
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feedmegin posted:Early Modern (in caps, it's not just the early bit of Modern) is probably a more common phrasing than Renaissance, well depending on where maybe? To me the latter is more specifically art and literature type stuff. Wars of the Roses are to me late mediaeval but of course it gets fuzzy. I acknowledge the existence of the term Early Modern and I absolutely hate it and think they should find any other name for that period. Early Modern is so devoid of meaning.
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Feb 28, 2024 22:09
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Is it any worse than Middle Ages or Antiquity
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Feb 28, 2024 22:12
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Zopotantor posted:That’s because they are Italian (actors).
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Feb 28, 2024 22:39
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Kylaer posted:I acknowledge the existence of the term Early Modern and I absolutely hate it and think they should find any other name for that period. Early Modern is so devoid of meaning. Coming from an arts background, I found the term a bit confusing too. Modern is very much late 1800's to mid 1900's. 1600s being Early Modern in that context is eyebrow raising. I propose we bring historical periods in line with artistic style terms and periods. Which means we can get on with more important things, like arguing whether the 30 years war is late Mannerist or Baroque.
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Feb 28, 2024 23:10
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Meanwhile, French language historiography defines the Modern epoch ("les Temps Modernes") as going from the end of the Middle Ages to 1789, after which it's succeeded by a fourth period called the Contemporary epoch ("l'Époque contemporaine"). In the same vein, what'd be called the Early Middle Ages in anglophone historiography is the High Middle Ages in French, and the Anglo High Middle Ages are the Franco Central or Classical Middle Ages, leaving the Late MA as the Low Middle Ages. This also works for Antiquity, but is mostly used for Late (low) Antiquity. It's all a simile of the flow of time as the flow of a river, going from high to low. It can make translation tricky at times, if you're not familiar with both conventions.
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Feb 28, 2024 23:59
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Cugel the Clever posted:Eh, it seems like a sufficiently distinct thing (if accurate). On the one hand, you have the baggage of modern imperialism imposing on an understanding of Athenian influence in its context; on the other, a modern definition for which Plato's ideal state checks all the boxes. So, I'm not sure how much of the Republic Popper quotes or discusses but I'll go through my understanding of it from what I read in both the dialogue and from experts. First off, the point of the Republic is not political philosophy. The dialogue starts with asking "what is justice?" Plato hypothesizes that to truly understand what Justice is in the individual we should look at justice in a society. So the Republic is really about the structure of reality, morality, and how we know all this. I dunno if Popper discusses the various steps and missteps taken in getting to the final state? But the end state of the Republic is not Plato's ideal even in that dialogue. Plato's ideal is actually very ascetic and spartan. People only get basic necessities and there is no grand system or hierarchy. Here's a paper on the subject if you are interested. And the relevant part of Book 2 as heard in an audiobook version I love: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TZG7voyFEA Going back to the fact the Republic isn't really political philosophy or Plato's real ideal, he has an actual political dialogue later called The Laws which is also his final work ever. As such we can trust it to maybe be his true and final account of politics. I have not read The Laws but I do know that it is very, very different from the Republic. https://iep.utm.edu/pla-laws/#:~:text=The%20Laws%20is%20Plato's%20last,Magnesia%2C%20a%20new%20Cretan%20colony. To be clear, I'm no academic or even close, and with someone as commonly written about as Plato, you will get a massive variety of opinions and interpretations. What I'm writing down here is just what I've read and agreed with.
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Feb 29, 2024 00:05
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*taking notes* Ro...co...co
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Feb 29, 2024 00:07
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Halloween Jack posted:Now the joke's on Plato because every billionaire thinks they're a philosopher. A philosopher is anybody with the power and will to claim the title.
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Feb 29, 2024 03:12
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Karl Pooper.
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Feb 29, 2024 03:19
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Tulip posted:A philosopher is anybody with the power and will to claim the title. i loving love wisdom!!!
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Feb 29, 2024 06:58
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history falls into three periods: sword times, gun times, and in the transition between them you have a variety of interesting hats
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Feb 29, 2024 12:07
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Black Powder Period is an infinitely better term than Early Modern, the name actually gives you information about the start, end, and defining feature of the period. 
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Feb 29, 2024 13:57
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The whole dark ages/renaissance/early modern/modern terminology sequence is pure propaganda, convincing people that society inevitably progresses forward (forward toward the current status quo of course).
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Feb 29, 2024 14:06
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Kylaer posted:Black Powder Period is an infinitely better term than Early Modern, the name actually gives you information about the start, end, and defining feature of the period. Is it? It wouldn't stop until the Victorian age whereas a lot of periodizations put the split between Early Modern/Modern at or around the French Revolution. This makes sense with the change to strong national governments and nationalism becoming the leading thing for the next while
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Feb 29, 2024 14:07
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Orbs posted:The whole dark ages/renaissance/early modern/modern terminology sequence is pure propaganda, convincing people that society inevitably progresses forward (forward toward the current status quo of course). over a long enough timeline, all societies trend toward temporarily wearing interesting hats
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Feb 29, 2024 14:18
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Squizzle posted:over a long enough timeline, all societies trend toward temporarily wearing interesting hats
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Feb 29, 2024 14:23
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Kylaer posted:I acknowledge the existence of the term Early Modern and I absolutely hate it and think they should find any other name for that period. Early Modern is so devoid of meaning. I like the term because it helps me remember that the world became a bit smaller and more connected during that period, and a lot of ideological structures we take for granted today (corporations, regulatory states) are created for the first time there. But I'm always down to hear a new name that keeps the entire world in focus. "Renaissance" and "Enlightenment" always felt a little too local and a little too short. Kylaer posted:Black Powder Period is an infinitely better term than Early Modern, the name actually gives you information about the start, end, and defining feature of the period. I dig it, firearms saw pretty widespread adoption across the globe once there effectiveness was shown off. SlothfulCobra posted:Then you're playing into the idea that there's no real history when there isn't fighting. Hm, good counterpoint. Triskelli fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 14:33
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Orbs posted:The whole dark ages/renaissance/early modern/modern terminology sequence is pure propaganda, convincing people that society inevitably progresses forward (forward toward the current status quo of course). hey let's hear more about what your idea of progress looks like
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Feb 29, 2024 14:33
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Time is an unbroken stream and all dilineations within history are just shallow tools for people trying to understand it.Kylaer posted:Black Powder Period is an infinitely better term than Early Modern, the name actually gives you information about the start, end, and defining feature of the period. Then you're playing into the idea that there's no real history when there isn't fighting.
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Feb 29, 2024 15:42
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History is half war and half grain tallies
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Feb 29, 2024 15:43
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zoux posted:History is half war and half grain tallies There are also signal follies of mankind. Mostly involving war and/or grain tallies but sometimes just weird sex stuff
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Feb 29, 2024 15:45
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zoux posted:History is half war and half grain tallies they were just talkin about the hats, come on
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Feb 29, 2024 15:46
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Those hats were purchased with grain money
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Feb 29, 2024 15:47
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SlothfulCobra posted:Then you're playing into the idea that there's no real history when there isn't fighting. Maybe too eurocentric but how about Sail Age? Even outside of colonialism the development of long-range trading changed the lives of everyone on the planet ranging from fashions to diets to scientific advancements.
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Feb 29, 2024 15:50
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FAUXTON posted:hey let's hear more about what your idea of progress looks like
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Feb 29, 2024 15:51
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Orbs posted:*looks at current world* Not like this? lol Oh come now, not even a little bit of detail on what you're arguing against here?
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Feb 29, 2024 15:56
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personally I would like to have back my right to control my reproductive system
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Feb 29, 2024 15:59
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SlothfulCobra posted:Then you're playing into the idea that there's no real history when there isn't fighting. When hasn't there been fighting? 
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Feb 29, 2024 16:14
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If I know one thing about history, it is that it perfectly mirrors my views on human nature!
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Feb 29, 2024 16:20
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FAUXTON posted:Oh come now, not even a little bit of detail on what you're arguing against here?
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Feb 29, 2024 16:24
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NikkolasKing posted:Still, this book is listed under the References and Suggested Reding Page or Karl Popper's own philosophy page on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: NikkolasKing posted:First off, the point of the Republic is not political philosophy. The dialogue starts with asking "what is justice?" Plato hypothesizes that to truly understand what Justice is in the individual we should look at justice in a society. So the Republic is really about the structure of reality, morality, and how we know all this. NikkolasKing posted:I dunno if Popper discusses the various steps and missteps taken in getting to the final state? But the end state of the Republic is not Plato's ideal even in that dialogue. Plato's ideal is actually very ascetic and spartan. People only get basic necessities and there is no grand system or hierarchy. Here's a paper on the subject if you are interested. He asserts that Plato has successfully guised the radical arch-conservatism in his message with incredibly clever rhetoric, misappropriating humanist rhetoric to assuage the reader's sensibilities and twisting it toward a naturalistic view of the world in which there is no progress, no change, just the stagnation of generation after generation of indoctrinated elites protecting their ideal state from "degeneracy". Eh, anyways, maybe not the right thread for the interpretation of all this. It was just a fairly fascinating read as the conservative and totalitarian rhetoric Popper calls out in Plato (and set against Popper's own context of writing in a world wracked by vicious totalitarians) bears a frightening resemblance to that of modern conservative parties. I don't recall the exact passage, but there's basically a straight up "Make Athens Great Again" moment. e: Any recommendations for the best book on the Peloponnesian War? I read Thucydides ages ago, but would be curious for modern scholarship. Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 17:54
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