PawParole posted:

https://twitter.com/JohnEdgarCarter/status/1762768628993204293

Evil people

Regarde Aduck posted:

i don't get why the UK has jumped deep into this poo poo with both feet

its so unforced and is just going to invoke years of blowback. I don't even know what the rules are anymore. Maybe thats why the Royal navy is getting rid of all its ships, to stop Russia blowing them up? Cunning.

Starsfan posted:

Did you guys hear about this Olaf Scholz controversy?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/02/28/british-soldiers-help-ukraine-fire-missiles-olaf-scholz/

The article is of course pay-walled but I guess Scholz revealed that the UK and France have military personnel in Ukraine who are the ones firing the Scalp / Storm Shadow missiles which have been used to target Crimea and the Russian Black Sea Fleet. This came up because Scholz was being pressured domestically to release the German taurus missiles to Ukraine which he has been unwilling to do up to this point. He countered calls to give Ukraine the missiles by stating that Germany can not give the missiles to Ukraine because they would require the presence of German military personnel to fire - citing the example of the French and British with the storm shadows - which in his view would make Germany an active participant in the war in Ukraine.

This of course was not received very well in France and the UK.

I guess it's not surprising to anyone but just lol that the idea that NATO countries have inserted their military forces into Ukraine is treated as a tankie conspiracy theory and then Scholz just blurted it out. Moron.

Regarde Aduck posted:

i don't get why the UK has jumped deep into this poo poo with both feet

its so unforced and is just going to invoke years of blowback. I don't even know what the rules are anymore. Maybe thats why the Royal navy is getting rid of all its ships, to stop Russia blowing them up? Cunning.

stephenthinkpad posted:

If Europe is ready to go beyond proxy war to "wear down Russia" anyway, might as well send in their own troops without going through the NATO platform. At lease they are better trained soldiers than the 50 yo Ukrainian office workers conscripts.

The Poles already fought ugly war with the Bolsheviks during the founding of the Soviet in the land between Warsaw and Kyiv. Stalin didn't do too well IIRC.

What's the chance of the rest of the Europe pay Poland to enter the war themselves (explicitly not covered by article 5)?

Starsfan posted:

Did you guys hear about this Olaf Scholz controversy?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/02/28/british-soldiers-help-ukraine-fire-missiles-olaf-scholz/

The article is of course pay-walled but I guess Scholz revealed that the UK and France have military personnel in Ukraine who are the ones firing the Scalp / Storm Shadow missiles which have been used to target Crimea and the Russian Black Sea Fleet. This came up because Scholz was being pressured domestically to release the German taurus missiles to Ukraine which he has been unwilling to do up to this point. He countered calls to give Ukraine the missiles by stating that Germany can not give the missiles to Ukraine because they would require the presence of German military personnel to fire - citing the example of the French and British with the storm shadows - which in his view would make Germany an active participant in the war in Ukraine.

This of course was not received very well in France and the UK.

I guess it's not surprising to anyone but just lol that the idea that NATO countries have inserted their military forces into Ukraine is treated as a tankie conspiracy theory and then Scholz just blurted it out. Moron.

January 6 Survivor posted:

https://va.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_s9jwqtYXHS1a1i6yy.mp4

if anything, that war is going to justify shotguns for another 100 years

(hell yeah)

VoicesCanBe posted:

Think about how easy it would've been for NATO to sell the April 2022 peace agreement as a massive win for Ukraine. With expectations still basically at rock bottom, the story would've been that the Ukrainian state survived intact and Russia had completely failed.

And to an extent it's not even wrong, the 2022 deal that was on the table was Minsk 2 with some minor modifications.

Instead they sought the maximalist position and here we are

OctaMurk posted:

the peace agreement in 2022 would not have required "selling" to be a win for ukraine, it simply would have been. 2nd largest army in the world stopped on most fronts and made to reverse all its territorial gains, in exchange for mostly symbolic concessions? woulda been a pretty big ukraine W in most books imo

supersnowman posted:

Well they did jump into Brexit in the same way so is it really surprising?

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

That would be the reddit perspective, and I agree the public would love it, but Russia wanted to bring Ukraine to the table through a token military force, not conquer the country.

Every Ukrainian life lost from the first shot was fired was arguably wasted since the issue should have never been pressed to the point of war to begin with. More than that, every life lost after peace talks were offered - was, is, will be, in vain.

Georgia figured this out after 200 guys.

euphronius posted:

Unless your goal is totally organizing society around buttressing the will to fight why is this analysis necessary or relevant

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

e: Remember that Bandera and his guys tagged along with the Wehrmacht into a part of the country they had never been before and were called “Poles” by the locals (which naturally infuriated them).

my bony fealty posted:

Yeah this is the biggest tragedy of it all, the Nationalists got everything they wanted and have destroyed their country and its people in the process.

stephenthinkpad posted:

If Europe is ready to go beyond proxy war to "wear down Russia" anyway, might as well send in their own troops without going through the NATO platform. At lease they are better trained soldiers than the 50 yo Ukrainian office workers conscripts.

The Poles already fought ugly war with the Bolsheviks during the founding of the Soviet in the land between Warsaw and Kyiv. Stalin didn't do too well IIRC.

What's the chance of the rest of the Europe pay Poland to enter the war themselves (explicitly not covered by article 5)?

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Cpt_Obvious posted:

It's going to be very funny when everything the west learns from this war is all the wrong lessons.

Ted Wassanasong posted:

Europe being rubble is acceptable cost for our goals.

my bony fealty posted:

In addition to all the great posts cited here already, it's really worth spending some time looking at the way people talk about this war and what they place importance on. It's reflective of how incapable neoliberalism is of fighting it, of how Ukraine can't win, and how Westerners have been so heavily propagandized they can't see the forest for the trees.

Pro-Ukranian posting is focused on how Putin is evil, Ukraine must win because of the threat Russia poses to Europe, how the Ukranians will win with their superior training and badass Operator soldiers and NATO equipment over the backwards orcs who can't tie their boots. Each individual incident of "Ukraine blew up some boats" or "a Russian aircraft was downed" is celebrated as a great victory - this is a feedback loop with the instant availability of combat footage, like holy poo poo did you see that video of 1000 vatniks being misted, Ukraine ftw fellas!! becoming in the mind of the observer the marker of how the war is going. Meanwhile any isolated incidents that make Ukraine look bad, like when they killed a bunch of their own POWs, are quickly turned into memes/jokes.

BULBASAUR posted:

Important tangent about this for thread lurkers- the material conditions for the working classes would likely improve with friendly Russian and Chinese relations. Instead, they are slowly immiserated. Sweden's public didn't even get a chance to vote about joining NATO. All the important choices are made for them by the ruling class, which are really the only people benefiting from American hegemony. Swedish labor has much more to gain increasing trade with its direct neighbor (whom it shares common history and blood) than a decaying empire across the ocean, but it cannot be allowed.

VoicesCanBe posted:

Instead they sought the maximalist position and here we are

Freezer posted:

With a Russia that's actually mobilized, with an experienced army, a revitalized military industrial sector, holding a grudge against the West and firmly in bed with China.

Truly a foreign policy success story.

Jel Shaker posted:

ofc the rand corp literally have a dial which says racism on it, probably with some crazy modifiers like 10% infantry ability if 1% more nazi

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

If there is one takeaway for liberals, please, I implore you, triumphalism because Russia has a smaller GDP than whatever, does not actually mean anything. Canada's economy is smaller than NVIDEA's market cap, as of this week. drat, that's crazy. Anyway, how can NVIDEA make LAVs? Oh, well, more money = buy more things. Okay, but someone still needs to make the things.

Russia is able to make more things, and pay less for them.

Freezer posted:

With a Russia that's actually mobilized, with an experienced army, a revitalized military industrial sector, holding a grudge against the West and firmly in bed with China.

Truly a foreign policy success story.

Regarde Aduck posted:

i don't get why the UK has jumped deep into this poo poo with both feet

its so unforced and is just going to invoke years of blowback. I don't even know what the rules are anymore. Maybe thats why the Royal navy is getting rid of all its ships, to stop Russia blowing them up? Cunning.

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/PDChina/status/1762843849611952136?t=5T9KeVjiXpGR8LiOnVv8hg&s=19

VoicesCanBe posted:

For America at least, it was probably worth it in the short term. They're directly benefitng from Europe deindustrializing.

For Europe? Lol. Lmao.

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

So uh, you tell me, does this look like they built a model for blood and soil nationalism? (Hilariously, a wheel, or rad, based one)

really queer Christmas posted:

Putin ftw

Regarde Aduck posted:

i don't get why the UK has jumped deep into this poo poo with both feet

its so unforced and is just going to invoke years of blowback. I don't even know what the rules are anymore. Maybe thats why the Royal navy is getting rid of all its ships, to stop Russia blowing them up? Cunning.

mila kunis posted:

Can you quantify the "will to fight"? Are there factories that produce this? How many kilos of will to fight can a single plant produce in a month?