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disposablewords posted:The Golden Path isn't really an ideology in-universe so much as it is the one path visible in his (and his son's) prescience that doesn't ultimately end in human extinction. Like it doesn't take any special belief, it is a thing he actually sees with his extra senses, much as a sighted man can see a mountain peak that a blind man cannot. The desirability of it and its means to see it through might be up for ideological debate, but its existence is as factual as the existence of Paul himself in the story. An ideology IS a system of belief. It doesn't matter how extra or real it is to Paul or Leto or you or me, that's just the type of thing that it is. PeterWeller posted:Fundamentalism isn't really about how much faith you have; it's about how strictly you adhere to tenets and traditions. While the latter often follows from the former, it's not always the case. For example, I'd argue that many Republican politicians are strict fundamentalists, but I'd also question their faith--Ted Cruz wants abortion outlawed not because of his deep faith in Christ and his promise of redemption but because he wants to exercise control over people. For sure, and the Bene are very strict and seek absolute control over themselves and others. There's other fundamentalist attributes they display too; consider their extreme levels of dedication, exclusivity, and intolerance. This isn't an exhaustive list!
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Mar 2, 2024 05:10
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Aces High posted:I liked this, but I definitely wasn't wowed in the same way I was after watching Part 1 for the first time. I can't really out my finger on why, especially since complaints about changes could also be leveled at Part 1. For me it was the pacing. The first movie took it's time, and slowly pulled the curtains to every scene and introduction. In this one, it was like Chef Emeril was producing it. BAM here is a scene for 1 minute BAM here's paul going to BAM here is BAM a worm BAM chani is angry BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM credits. It was so jarring to me. All those scenes were amazing, but holy poo poo my brain was going to explode.
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Mar 2, 2024 05:17
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abelwingnut posted:so how does this work? it's important to distinguish between the 'real' stuff (superpowers produced by training, drugs, and generations of eugenics) and the politics (kwisatz haderach project, lisan al-gaib prophesy, etc.).
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Mar 2, 2024 05:18
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I wonder how any super powers Charles II had irl
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Mar 2, 2024 05:23
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Blood Boils posted:An ideology IS a system of belief. It doesn't matter how extra or real it is to Paul or Leto or you or me, that's just the type of thing that it is. And... I said... it doesn't require belief. In the bit you're quoting. I didn't contradict myself. It's a sequence of events they can perceive, just like seeing a mountain isn't an ideology.
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Mar 2, 2024 05:44
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Blood Boils posted:An ideology IS a system of belief. It doesn't matter how extra or real it is to Paul or Leto or you or me, that's just the type of thing that it is. if we're talking about definitions, the "golden path" is simply a single one of many possible futures. it's not a belief about humanity's potential or nature, or any kind of abstract set of codes by which humanity ought to abide. it is literally a sequence of explicit events which leads to a specific result, which leto II knows for a fact can actually happen like, the "passion of Christ" is the sequence of events which started with jesus' arrest and ends with his ascension into heaven after death. when people refer to "the passion" they are not talking about ideology or theology, they're not saying whether Jesus is good or bad. they are talking about a series of events which happened. "the golden path" is a series of events which could happen, and if they do, it ends with the great scattering kalel fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 05:45
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Aces High posted:I liked this, but I definitely wasn't wowed in the same way I was after watching Part 1 for the first time. I can't really out my finger on why, especially since complaints about changes could also be leveled at Part 1. But now that I've had a few days to sit on it, I think Dunc 2 is even better than Dunc 1. The visuals keep popping up in my head again and again.
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Mar 2, 2024 05:53
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Rental Sting posted:Movie was insanely lit. The one by village crossing?
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Mar 2, 2024 06:06
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The total absence of the guild from the finale of the film really makes the political situation hard to understand. You get the impression that Paul's super soldiers will defeat the whole galaxy in space combat through sheer zeal when none of them have ever been on a spaceship in their lives. In fact the entire final act is rushed and confusing. It's changed significantly from the book in that the emperor's motivation to come to Dune is changed. In the book the Emperor shows up because the guild and the great houses are losing confidence in his ability to maintain the status quo on Arrakis. So when he shows up and Paul dumpsters him in twenty minutes everyone else is already kinda on the fence. The guild acquiesces immediately because they will literally die without spice, which makes organized resistance difficult. It makes more sense that the Atreides conquer the galaxy with a stranglehold on trade and only ambivalent resistance from the ruling class in addition to super soldiers. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 06:10
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banned from Starbucks posted:The one by village crossing? That's the one.
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Mar 2, 2024 06:15
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disposablewords posted:And... I said... it doesn't require belief. In the bit you're quoting. I didn't contradict myself. It's a sequence of events they can perceive, just like seeing a mountain isn't an ideology. A possible future that your mom's school of witches have raised you to achieve isn't the same thing as a mountain. kalel posted:if we're talking about definitions, the "golden path" is simply a single one of many possible futures. it's not a belief about humanity's potential or nature, or any kind of abstract set of codes by which humanity ought to abide. it is literally a sequence of explicit events which leads to a specific result, which leto II knows for a fact can actually happen Speaking as a Christian the passion is definitely talking theology lol
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Mar 2, 2024 06:42
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I was trying to figure out why I didn't remember the Sardaukar just being a bunch of handsome bearded white guys in the first movie and I think it's because you only saw them with their full suits on. They're just normal looking dudes under there! I found Christopher Walken distracting and wholly unbelievable as the emperor. Gonna have to see it again in IMAX.
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Mar 2, 2024 07:12
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Hard to praise or criticize Walken's performance when he has zilch to do. We could have used some more dialogue in those scenes of him looking worried.
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Mar 2, 2024 07:16
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I had to hold back laughter when he started talking for the first time. He’s supposed to be some imposing calculating guy but he just plays him like wacky “I stuck da watch up my rear end” Walken. I figured he was cast as a neat callback to his participation in the David lynch film? Felt horribly miscast though to me
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Mar 2, 2024 07:27
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Arglebargle III posted:The total absence of the guild from the finale of the film really makes the political situation hard to understand. You get the impression that Paul's super soldiers will defeat the whole galaxy in space combat through sheer zeal when none of them have ever been on a spaceship in their lives. Thank you, I knew there was something off in the ending and I couldn't place what was going on. The Fremen running onto the ships and lifting off into orbit seemed really out of place. It's been a while since I read the book, but I thought Paul did control the guild through the spice, which meant everyone else had to step in line or lose access to the known universe.
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Mar 2, 2024 07:28
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Blood Boils posted:A possible future that your mom's school of witches have raised you to achieve isn't the same thing as a mountain. The spectrum of possible futures as physical features is just plainly the metaphor Herbert used so  Also the Golden Path isn't something the BGs planned, they just wanted their pet superman. Them maintaining control is one of the things that would lead to stagnation.
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Mar 2, 2024 07:35
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Saw it I do think it's a good adaptation and the big changes actually work to hammer home the themes better. Only real complaint is it did need the Guild rep at the end on the shutting down the Emperor to hammer home the "without spice there's no guild, no space travel" and it also would explain why the Fremen actually can use the ships to go on their war. But considering what it does well, that's a pretty minor complaint compared to magical rain of Arrakis at the end...
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Mar 2, 2024 07:44
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Philthy posted:Thank you, I knew there was something off in the ending and I couldn't place what was going on. The Fremen running onto the ships and lifting off into orbit seemed really out of place. It's been a while since I read the book, but I thought Paul did control the guild through the spice, which meant everyone else had to step in line or lose access to the known universe. It's also the explanation for how Paul expects to conquer the galaxy with only a few million soldiers: no one else has any strategic mobility, so they're stuck waiting for the Atreides jihad to show up em masse and defeat them in detail.
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Mar 2, 2024 07:53
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killaer posted:I had to hold back laughter when he started talking for the first time. He’s supposed to be some imposing calculating guy but he just plays him like wacky “I stuck da watch up my rear end” Walken. I figured he was cast as a neat callback to his participation in the David lynch film? Felt horribly miscast though to me Also the Fatboy Slim music video. Vaguely related, ages ago I joked about the Transformers The Movie soundtrack working for anything, but I legit heard The Touch in my head when Paul rides the worm and it kicked rear end Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 08:30
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Arglebargle III posted:It's also the explanation for how Paul expects to conquer the galaxy with only a few million soldiers: no one else has any strategic mobility, so they're stuck waiting for the Atreides jihad to show up em masse and defeat them in detail. Yeah, Paul has the galaxy and the Guild in particular by the short and curlies with his monopoly on the only resource that allows space travel.
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Mar 2, 2024 08:36
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Carpet posted:Thinking again about that jump cut from Paul saying he is no Messiah, to Stilgar exclaiming to his buddies that that is exactly what the Messiah would say, further proving his divinity 
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Mar 2, 2024 09:11
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Also the Fatboy Slim music video. lol denis had to have cast him because he says "Walk without rhythm, it won't attract the worm" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDIYvFmgW8
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Mar 2, 2024 09:15
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Arglebargle III posted:The total absence of the guild from the finale of the film really makes the political situation hard to understand. You get the impression that Paul's super soldiers will defeat the whole galaxy in space combat through sheer zeal when none of them have ever been on a spaceship in their lives. I think Denis made the right choice by excising a lot of the galactic politics and focusing on the main characters and Arrakis, but this is absolutely spot on. The ending would have been hugely improved by including A) a scene showing the other houses putting pressure on the emperor and emphasizing the necessity for him to personally take care of the situation on Arrakis, and B) the presence of a representative of the Guild at the end making clear that they need to acquiesce to Paul in order to survive, thus allowing the jihad to spread off world. This goes hand in hand with my complaint above about the situation with projectile weapons not being explained: one of the pitfalls of adapting Dune is thinking that you need to feature all the factions and oddities of the universe in order to do it justice, thus ending up with a weird dehumanized soup of things and actions a la the Lynch movie, but ultimately you have to include at least some of that stuff to make the whole world intelligible. MeinPanzer fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 09:26
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yeah I think absent from the Denisverse is just the sheer scale of power wielded by 3rd parties. I remember reading in the books about how even the great houses had to hitch a ride from the spicing guilds and got that sense of bigger fishes
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Mar 2, 2024 09:31
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I agree with the sentiment that the entire movie felt rushed - especially the second half. The entire thing should have been a trilogy just to cover book one to begin with. That said, I'm quite happy with what we got. As far as Dune on the big screen is concerned, this certainly blows Lynch's version out of the water a thousand times over.
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Mar 2, 2024 10:44
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I'm not super familiar with the books, I've mostly picked up details from the series via cultural osmosis and watching the Lynch version on some weird double sided DVD with always on German subtitles that I found in a friend's parent's house. But in adapting the next book (Messiah?) would it be essential to actually feature elements like the Navigators, or can they just continue to elide those elements the way they currently do. I mostly just want to see more weird poo poo ngl.
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Mar 2, 2024 10:59
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Open Source Idiom posted:I'm not super familiar with the books, I've mostly picked up details from the series via cultural osmosis and watching the Lynch version on some weird double sided DVD with always on German subtitles that I found in a friend's parent's house. I feel the importance of the Spacing Guild in general has been heavily undersold in both movies, and I expect that trend to continue in Messiah. Which is a shame, as their need for and obsession with the spice and by extension, Paul, is an important plot line.
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Mar 2, 2024 11:19
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Denis: "We will be making Dun3 M3ssiah!" "  "Denis: "the spacing guild head will be played by Jared Leto!" "  "
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Mar 2, 2024 11:22
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Man that rocked. Agree about missing the spacing guild, i am disappointed about the lack of water discipline and the desert still doesn't actually look hot in any way, but otherwise that was exemplary. I kept thinking about things they cut, but then realising that actually it didn't make any difference not having them.
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Mar 2, 2024 11:30
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Besides world building what you lose when you excise the guild, mentats (and in latter books the Tleilaxu) is Herbert's working class horror at specialized labor. Herbert was only financially secure in the last decade of his life and he had to keep working odd jobs until the mid 70s with his wife being the main breadwinner. Marx had written that as industrial capital advances workers become evermore extension of machines and machines become extensions of workers, and Herbert (who was not a leftist) takes that observation to it's furthest conclusion, which is specialized labor demanding specialized bodies, workers being turned into machines. Dune popularized ecology in science fiction, and the central conceit of ecology is interconnectedness and malleability: bodies are shaped by their planetary environments (Sardaukar, Fremen) but also their economic function.
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Mar 2, 2024 11:42
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I enjoyed Part 2 quite a bit more than Part 1, precisely because of the pacing. Part 1 is full of these moments where the movie finally gets going only to be stopped by a long scene of characters explaining things in stilted dialogue. (Villeneuve said recently that he hates dialogue and I understand it, the man really struggles to direct it.) I get that these scenes are useful and maybe even good to people who are new to Dune but as someone who's read the book, it just made the movie tedious for the most part. In Part 2 there's a lot less of that and the "let's take a break" moments mostly serve the plot rather than being pure worldbuilding. Things are more confusing and this approach is maybe less true to the source material (which after all, is also full of weird pacing and stilted expository dialogue) but it makes it work much better as a movie. Maybe that's just because while I've read the first two books I'm not a big fan of them, and I'd much rather see something like a Terrence Malick-style adaptation than some poo poo about guild politics Also idk, the confusing bits are better approach with the mindset of "this will probably become clearer later" than "wtf this came out of nowhere". Like the ending felt to me a lot more like a setup for the next movie than a true ending, much like the ending to Part 1 was
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Mar 2, 2024 11:45
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lolling again thinking about Chani teaching Paul how to properly sandwalk, and Paul going "well, back on Caladan I watched some YouTube tutorial videos and they said..."
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Mar 2, 2024 12:20
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Carpet posted:lolling again thinking about Chani teaching Paul how to properly sandwalk, and Paul going "well, back on Caladan I watched some YouTube tutorial videos and they said..." Peak Mahdisplaining
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Mar 2, 2024 13:30
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"That's funny Chani, because in my youtubes they said if you walk without rhythm, you're never gonna learn."
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Mar 2, 2024 13:56
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You don't understand,Chani, Stilgar came to me, with tears in his eyes, saying "Usul, Usul, my Lisan Al Gaib..."
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Mar 2, 2024 14:02
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Bugblatter posted:"That's funny Chani, because in my youtubes they said if you walk without rhythm, you're never gonna learn." It is pretty funny that Christopher Walken is now directly tied to both of these.
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Mar 2, 2024 14:18
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Antristo posted:I agree with the sentiment that the entire movie felt rushed - especially the second half. I think you could probably have included the exposition about the guild and the great houses through Gurney, Irulan and Mohiam and maybe one additional character in the final scene. Two minutes of screen time and like six lines. "The guild is paying a fortune to anyone who can get spice past Muad'Dib. You don't realize how much terror you've inflicted. The Imperium runs on the spice." "CHOAM profits are down another 50% this quarter. If the Emperor doesn't move immediately he will lose the support of the guild and the great houses and next the throne. Why are you still advising him to wait?" Give Walken a line disagreeing with Feyd when he claims he's restored spice production! Put a guild navigator in the final scene. After the exchange about destroying the spice fields and the line "he's bluffing" Have Feyd order his attendants to summon the Harkonnen fleet from Geidi Prime and have the guild guy tell him the guild won't transport them. You could replace them looking up at the great houses starships arriving and lines about how they're going to fight with looking up at a clear sky and noting the absence of an arriving fleet means the guild has acquiesced to his ascension. Like one additional minute of screen time in existing scenes, if that. Just lose a few frames of that triumph of the will stuff on black and white planet.
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Mar 2, 2024 14:24
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Okay, reading that, I get why Denis hates dialogue.
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Mar 2, 2024 14:26
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Oh also Paul gets stabbed right in his brachial artery and walks it off.
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Mar 2, 2024 14:28
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Has there even been a goon rewrite that wasn't demonstrably much worse than the original
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Mar 2, 2024 14:44
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