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Batterypowered7 posted:Why? I think I've only ever gotten a bunch of treasures once, and it was because an opponent with a bunch of treasures of his own didn't crack them in response. Dockside's really not a menace at casual tables. Dockside rapidly scales up as tables get stronger and almost as soon as you get above the point where people are playing manaliths, it's going to regularly be a 6+ mana any-color ritual. It also punishes people for playing all the new artifact mechanics (food/clues/powerstones/blood/scrap/incubators/maps). It's also half the package many top decks are dipping red for, so I would not be sad in the slightest to see Dockside/Breach/Thoracle go to open up some space.
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Mar 2, 2024 01:59
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Toshimo posted:Dockside rapidly scales up as tables get stronger and almost as soon as you get above the point where people are playing manaliths, it's going to regularly be a 6+ mana any-color ritual. It also punishes people for playing all the new artifact mechanics (food/clues/powerstones/blood/scrap/incubators/maps). I understand all that. I just play with randos 99% of the time and they build lovely do-nothing decks that get their one good artifact/enchantment removed, so the one deck I run Dockside in has never really been able to generate tons of value (other than the one time). Hell, I took the Temur Sabertooth combo out because it would never go mana positive, or it would go +1 (but they penalize you for repeating a sequence more than four times, since they play for points).
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Mar 2, 2024 02:29
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The solution is for everyone to just play Conquest instead.
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Mar 2, 2024 02:36
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At yhe LGSs I go to I fully expect a dockside in every deck that has red, unless I'm playing one of the new guys with a barely upgraded precon or one of the older guys who have silly jank decks that still crush everyone.
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Mar 2, 2024 02:56
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at least i was only really out the cost of the booster. i also got a modern horizons/masters pack at the same time and it had an upheaval. that one i wouldn't have considered playing and it deserves to be banned. no salt there.
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Mar 2, 2024 05:00
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Party Miser posted:at least i was only really out the cost of the booster. i also got a modern horizons/masters pack at the same time and it had an upheaval. that one i wouldn't have considered playing and it deserves to be banned. no salt there. Good news because it is banned.
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Mar 2, 2024 14:22
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The commander community is extremely large, and the tiny minority of it that makes up the people who go on reddit etc. to loudly post their opinions gets commonly mistaken for an average representation of all commander players when the vast majority of them are much more chill than that in reality. A lot of game stores will have one or two people like that, and a few have accumulated enough of them that they've driven out everyone who isn't like that, but most people I've played commander with or around don't get mad at things unless people are deliberately playing decks way too strong for the rest of the table and then they simply just don't play with that person anymore unless they switch decks. The reputation for whiny pissy babies who can't handle interaction is wildly overblown online.
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Mar 2, 2024 15:12
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A Moose posted:edit: The EDHrec 100 saltiest cards list is wild. The combined salt value of my Hinata control deck is about 30. The combined salt of Urza and 99 islands is 77.
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Mar 2, 2024 15:43
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A fair number of people play or did play EDH on MODO where stuff like Tabernacle is less than  or play on a 3rd party client where the cards have no cost. There's a big spread in the way EDH is played so never assume the playerbase at all resembles the meta you experience.
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Mar 2, 2024 16:13
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So far the only three dudes I refuse to play against have been one huge rear end in a top hat who thinks he's hot poo poo because he was on a pro tour back in the day and just pubstomps, one guy who is just human garbage groglord and not fun to play against, and one guy who straight up could not get rules right at all despite having played for decades Everyone else is super chill and I hop around various LGSs every week to play in paper. For how ridiculous the last paragraph is, I've only had a handful of bad experiences in MTG compared to 40k which I've only ever had a handful of good experiences.
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Mar 2, 2024 16:19
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Toshimo posted:A fair number of people play or did play EDH on MODO where stuff like Tabernacle is less than Content creator led cEDH stuff is also almost all proxies. Those guys make multiple decks a week, they're not paying for that poo poo.
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Mar 2, 2024 17:16
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Spanish Manlove posted:Good news because it is banned. i know, that's why i mentioned it.
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Mar 2, 2024 17:58
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I spent 30-35 on upgrading my Necron deck and it's much more cohesive now and can win better
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Mar 2, 2024 20:21
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I think most of my earliest decks would be upgraded through including Necron cards. Even the lowly Dangerous Gamer could probably use a little 40k punch up. Seemed like the best of the 40k decks but I haven't actually played against it yet.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:36
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If anyone cares about Canadian Highlander, LRR is streaming a championship, but not sure if it's a rerun. Good Wheeler and Benji stuff.
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Mar 2, 2024 22:30
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Fajita Queen posted:The commander community is extremely large, and the tiny minority of it that makes up the people who go on reddit etc. to loudly post their opinions gets commonly mistaken for an average representation of all commander players when the vast majority of them are much more chill than that in reality. Yeah, at my locals the vibe is super chill, to the point where event the people who come with some high-powered poo poo mostly just get people being impressed. Like, building something that can reliably get lethal on board even in a format where it's hard to draw anything reliably is impressive regardless. There's some people playing decks that get people mad, but I think it's just because some decks even at the right power level are kind of infuriating. No, the mill deck isn't stronger than the rest of the table, but it's dealing psychological damage when you mill out that combo piece you were praying to draw.
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Mar 2, 2024 23:42
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I love my kami of the crescent moon deck because it uses more draw than mill. The idea is that I'm just making everyone draw a few more cards, and then even more, and then fuckloads. But you have to win before you draw your empty deck, and you have to do that while the mono blue deck itself is drawing just as many cards. It tends to get a good response from combo players who draw into good mana and their fun pieces thanks to my efforts, but the battlecruiser crowd just doesn't like having their thinning library become a timer on the game.
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Mar 2, 2024 23:58
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I don't play mill but there's one person in my group who likes to. It's fun in a local meta because we all adapted by running recursion and eldrazi titans but I could see it being frustrating if you play against it often enough to get annoyed but not often enough to be worth building for
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Mar 3, 2024 00:10
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One of my favorite additions to the Rogues deck is Scheming Symmetry. They always forget that they're about to get milled so they're excited for a brief moment until they realize what's about to happen.
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Mar 3, 2024 02:26
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Tarnop posted:I don't play mill but there's one person in my group who likes to. It's fun in a local meta because we all adapted by running recursion and eldrazi titans but I could see it being frustrating if you play against it often enough to get annoyed but not often enough to be worth building for Yeah, at my locals there's maybe 60-ish people there on average (basically the main Magic store in the center of a major city), and I think I've faced mill three times total. It's not common even when it's effective, I think because most people only have so much tolerance for being that person. You become the main foe of the entire table when you play mill, and I think most people don't really find that fun. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 02:38
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Before we adapted our decks, playing against mill also resulted in some of our biggest blowouts. There are so many ways to dump a bunch of mana from your graveyard into play and then recur a whole wincon 3 or 4 turns earlier than anyone can deal with it. My friend also adjusted his mill deck to prefer exiling after this happened a few times
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Mar 3, 2024 02:42
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I still think draw-to-death is just much more fun than mill. It's risky, because the graveyard players choose what to discard from their huge hands, the combo players will see all their pieces, and nobody is going to have mana issues. That's the fun of it, though: When you give everyone their whole library, and that very fact kills them. It's why the commander is kami of the crescent moon: if you get mr. Howling Mine out turn 2, you are the last person to draw the second card it offers, putting you one card behind. Perfect when your win con is to get everyone else to draw their library before you do, using effects that cause all players to draw. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 10:36
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i won in a pod with bruvac on the table by playing my at the time, precon, Necron deck oh you milled over half my deck? that's fine. Living Death. No counters? OK I have Caged Sun also in my hand so once that goes out I now have 244 power on the board. 
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Mar 3, 2024 11:03
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It's funny because I view both mill decks and Kami/Mine decks as group hug and would just blitz them out of the pod and then not play with either again.
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Mar 3, 2024 13:52
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Toshimo posted:It's funny because I view both mill decks and Kami/Mine decks as group hug and would just blitz them out of the pod and then not play with either again. I can't figure you out. You would like Thoracle and Breach banned and you've said combat damage is a bad win condition, mill is group hug. I feel like you've said decks should be setting up to win around turn six, though I might be misremembering. So what are the Toshimo Approved™©® ways to win Commander? Is it Protean Hulk lines, infinite turns, and Kiki-Jiki type combos only? Infinite combat steps? What does the ideal Toshimo Four Player Pod look like?
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Mar 3, 2024 16:57
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Maybe it's because I haven't played against a mill deck in commander yet, or because I have no respect for online combo assembly, but I really cannot imagine why Mill decks would bother anyone. Unless the mill player actively gets you to draw to death, they might as well not be in the game at all or have actually been your ally for most of the game keeping your graveyard healthy and full of options. And I have to think if I were building some kind of combo deck I would add cards that grab my boring combo pieces from the deck and graveyard
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Mar 3, 2024 17:06
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Batterypowered7 posted:I can't figure you out. You would like Thoracle and Breach banned and you've said combat damage is a bad win condition, mill is group hug. I feel like you've said decks should be setting up to win around turn six, though I might be misremembering. So what are the Toshimo Approved™©® ways to win Commander? Is it Protean Hulk lines, infinite turns, and Kiki-Jiki type combos only? Infinite combat steps? What does the ideal Toshimo Four Player Pod look like? Mill is group hug. Same way Kami/Mine are. The graveyard is a resource and giving your opponents free resources is a terrible way to win. I had a discussion the other day with some folks and we agreed that rad counters are a failed mechanic because they are costed like a penalty but in reality, they are a bonus. If you asked someone playing strong EDH decks if they would pay 10 life at the start of a game to mill themselves for 15 a lot of them would say yes. And milling for free is worse. Also, Mill doesn't work within typical EDH play because chip damage is important to the game flow and chip mill is meaningless, so you are also just taking pressure off all the decks you are facing. Breach/Thoracle/Dockside are bad because they are so good and consistent that they put the floor for high-level play at a level that strangles a lot of decks out. There would be a lot more options for T1/1.5 decks if you weren't forced to answer "Why am I not just playing Breach/Thoracle/Dockside, instead?". A lot of this is why I'd rather play/watch Conquest instead of EDH anymore. The lower life total makes all chip damage relevant and puts combat-damage-based decks back in the mix. Also, having a sensible banlist means there's a lot of variety and deckbuilding choices. EDH right now, if you have thw budget or are proxying ia basically "throw a $3,000 manabase, a bunch of free spells, and assorted other $50 cards in and then leave a dozen spots for my commander and most efficient combo package. GG". It's so loving stale. It also doesn't help that WotC keeps printing garbage precons so the gap keeps getting larger. Frankly, I don't see how anyone other than Post Malone is comfortable playing for realsies no-proxy paper EDH anymore. If you want my ideal pod, it's an aggro deck that's pressuring everyone out so they can't simply sit back and Ad Naus for the win, some combo decks that have to actually reach to kill the table and don't just Thoracle/Consult or loop Docksides, and maybe some sort of Control/Stax to keep everyone honest. But really, we don't have any of that anymore once you get above 7/10 and it's very disappointing.
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Mar 3, 2024 17:17
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Khanstant posted:Maybe it's because I haven't played against a mill deck in commander yet, or because I have no respect for online combo assembly, but I really cannot imagine why Mill decks would bother anyone. Unless the mill player actively gets you to draw to death, they might as well not be in the game at all or have actually been your ally for most of the game keeping your graveyard healthy and full of options. A lot of people that play competitively do. Underworld Breach to combo out of their own graveyard or Mnemonic Betrayal to combo out with their opponents'. I would have mentioned Intuition, but that usually just a way to get Underworld Breach.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:03
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Being a nasty cutthroat devil doesn't mean you have to endorse overpowered, over-represented cards. I would love for more things at the bleeding edge without breach/led/grinding station lines and/or thoracle strats. They're not as dominant as flash hulk, but it is ubiquitous and stifling.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:03
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Batterypowered7 posted:I can't figure you out. You would like Thoracle and Breach banned and you've said combat damage is a bad win condition, mill is group hug. I feel like you've said decks should be setting up to win around turn six, though I might be misremembering. So what are the Toshimo Approved™©® ways to win Commander? Is it Protean Hulk lines, infinite turns, and Kiki-Jiki type combos only? Infinite combat steps? What does the ideal Toshimo Four Player Pod look like? He has never actually played Magic.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:25
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Toshimo posted:EDH right now, if you have thw budget or are proxying ia basically "throw a $3,000 manabase, a bunch of free spells, and assorted other $50 cards in and then leave a dozen spots for my commander and most efficient combo package. GG". It's so loving stale. It also doesn't help that WotC keeps printing garbage precons so the gap keeps getting larger. Frankly, I don't see how anyone other than Post Malone is comfortable playing for realsies no-proxy paper EDH anymore. I think that's the biggest letdown of deck building for commander. Making a big decklists with everything fun to your chosen theme, but then whittling then all aware until it's basically the same as any decent deck with all the generic too good for any gameplay cards. My working solution currently is to focus on goofier deck ideas that aren't even very good with perfect manabase and commander staples.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:46
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Toshimo posted:Mill is group hug. Same way Kami/Mine are. The graveyard is a resource and giving your opponents free resources is a terrible way to win. I had a discussion the other day with some folks and we agreed that rad counters are a failed mechanic because they are costed like a penalty but in reality, they are a bonus. If you asked someone playing strong EDH decks if they would pay 10 life at the start of a game to mill themselves for 15 a lot of them would say yes. And milling for free is worse. Also, Mill doesn't work within typical EDH play because chip damage is important to the game flow and chip mill is meaningless, so you are also just taking pressure off all the decks you are facing. But you've said that combat damage is a bad wincon (in EDH), so why would anyone be incentivized to play an aggro deck? And what type of combos come to mind that are both good but also have to reach to kill the table? This very much feels like an "I can't actually define something for you but I know it when I see it" situation. Like, what decks do you and your playgroup routinely play with that lead to pods that fit your criteria?
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Mar 3, 2024 21:14
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Batterypowered7 posted:But you've said that combat damage is a bad wincon (in EDH), so why would anyone be incentivized to play an aggro deck? And what type of combos come to mind that are both good but also have to reach to kill the table? This very much feels like an "I can't actually define something for you but I know it when I see it" situation. Like, what decks do you and your playgroup routinely play with that lead to pods that fit your criteria? The whole point is that the format is currently so broken we can't have a good meta and that the RC needs to make significant changes to fix it.
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Mar 3, 2024 21:29
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Toshimo posted:The whole point is that the format is currently so broken we can't have a good meta and that the RC needs to make significant changes to fix it. ban islands
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Mar 3, 2024 21:49
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make islands etb tapped.
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Mar 4, 2024 00:17
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If we're looking for bad ways to fix the game: Any permanent or token that would enter the battlefield from anywhere other than the shared library instead enters the shared library. If this permanent is a land, the owner may add one mana of any colour the land could produce to their mana pool. Any non permanent spell cast from a players hand that would resolve instead enters the shared library. Once each player has played a turn this round, each player in turn (starting with the first player of this round) chooses one card from the shared library. If this is a permanent, that permanent enters the battlefield under their control. If this is a nonpermanent spell, the spell is exiled. It's chooser may cast that spell from exile without paying its mana cost for as long as it remains in exile. This continues until the shared library has no cards. Once there are no cards in the shared library, the next round begins starting with the player to the left of the first player of the previous round. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Mar 4, 2024 |
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Mar 4, 2024 01:11
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Khanstant posted:Maybe it's because I haven't played against a mill deck in commander yet, or because I have no respect for online combo assembly, but I really cannot imagine why Mill decks would bother anyone. Unless the mill player actively gets you to draw to death, they might as well not be in the game at all or have actually been your ally for most of the game keeping your graveyard healthy and full of options. A lot of the mill cards are tedious to resolve
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Mar 4, 2024 01:21
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The only good mill deck is gyruda clones with Konrad/dreadhound+mindcrank backup
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Mar 4, 2024 01:45
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I agree with 40 life per player pushing aggro out of the format. If you want to feel like you're actually doing anything you pretty much need to focus on a single player, which can lead to hurt feelings.
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Mar 4, 2024 03:34
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I feel like cEDH players previously used point systems to incentivize different styles of play, but stopped some years ago. Is that the case, or was I just mixing it up with people telling stories about their LGS? At face value, that feels like a strong solution to some issues like aggro being bad, but there must be some reason tourneys don’t use them. I know there was a strong discussion about 30 starting life 10-15 years ago.
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Mar 4, 2024 04:29
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