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Avren posted:Looks like https://t.me/baytlahya2015/40468 maybe? (Though with 0 Arabic not sure how much additional context that adds.) Thanks. I still can't make out the date on that photo, but the post does seem to say it's expired.
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Mar 2, 2024 23:59
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hadji murad posted:Are they supplying more by air than land? By how much? I'm not entirely up on how much of the land based supplies the US is funding / providing overall, but the most recent USAID fact sheet is here: https://www.usaid.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/2024-01-16_USG_Levant_Complex_Emergency_Fact_Sheet_3.pdf quote:The UN agency [UFP] assisted more than 665,000 I'm pretty interested in getting more and better numbers, but if each individual was only assisted with one meal in the month, the planes todayish dropped slightly more than that (the 38k meals number). I'm reasonably sure there are people who got more than one UN meal in December. If I'm reading the second part correctly as 197 metric tons of biscuits at ~0.5kg a day being enough to more or less live on, that's 400kish meal-adjacent units... which isn't a lot for a month. For another napkin math number, from Powers' presser, note that it's definitely not all food: quote:To help scale the response, as we push to overcome these impediments, I announced an additional $53 million in urgently needed assistance, which brings the U.S. total since October 7 to $180 million for food, for treatment, for acute malnutrition, for shelter, for water, medical assistance and the like. Also, definitely not all food: quote:In the last week, after months of U.S. diplomacy to try to increase the flow of humanitarian assistance into Gaza, the average number of trucks getting in has been just 96. 96 trucks for a population of more than two million people. I hope we / the international community are attempting to send more by land than 38k meals a day for a severely blockaded population of more than two million. American military cargo planes are very big, so like I mentioned, if we were willing to spend the fuel inefficiently and had the actual supplies ready to go, we probably could alleviate the famine via airdrop. Boats and trucks are much better if Israel doesn't gently caress with 'em. 3 planes is a very small amount of that lifting capacity, and while 10k+ meals per plane is a respectable-sounding number, we'd need a lot more planes moving to actually make a difference at scale. sorry for all the edits, been flipping through new documents and websites and didn't want to make an entire page of new posts Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 00:00
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oh here's another couple numbers from the fact sheet:quote:4 relevant because in addition to just increasing the raw numbers, this apparently provides better access to (what's left of) northern Gaza let's link the wfp website too, since usaid keeps naming it as its most important partner in the Gaza emergency: https://www.wfp.org/emergencies/palestine-emergency this might help clarify that 660k figure, or alternatively might just confuse me more: quote:Over 1.3 million people received food assistance in Gaza (one-time ten-day ration, or hot meals) in the first half of February. WFP distribution points include local shops to make it easier for people to redeem their assistance. WFP food parcels include canned pulses, canned meat and high-calorie foods such as Halawa and date bars. doesn't seem like wfp has a whole lot of crunchy numbers on their website In other aid news, UNRWA is limping along: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/01/unrwa-funding-pause-employees-october-7-hamas-attack-claims-no-evidence-un quote:A month after Israeli allegations that a dozen United Nations staff were involved in the 7 October Hamas attack, UN investigators have yet to receive any evidence from Israel to support the claims, though they expect some material to be forthcoming “shortly”. (editor's note: additional unrwa thing, assuming the parcels are actually getting through: quote:To address food insecurity, UNRWA provides emergency assistance to just over one million Palestine refugees, or about 75 per cent of all Palestine refugees in Gaza, who lack the financial means to cover their basic food. Eligibility for is determined through the results of a poverty assessment survey conducted through home visits by social workers. Approximately 620,310 refugees have been assessed as living below the abject poverty line of US$ 1.74 per person per day and receive quarterly food parcels providing 1,675 kcal per person per day, equivalent to 80 per cent of a person’s daily caloric requirements, while a further 389,680 refugees have been assessed to live between the abject poverty line and the absolute poverty line of US$ 3.87 per person per day will receive 902 kcal per person per day, equivalent to approximately 43 per cent of their daily caloric needs. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 00:03
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Google Jeb Bush posted:
I regrettably must inform you that we/the international community are currently working to enforce that blockade and starve more than two million people to death. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 3, 2024 00:24
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AlliedBiscuit posted:Israeli acquaintance shared this post. I’d really like to hear perspectives on it. I’m very much against Israel’s actions and want to push back tactfully. Google Jeb Bush posted:If your response to an increase in aid is to get angrier you should probably reassess your thinking.
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Mar 3, 2024 00:44
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World Famous W posted:it sucks poo poo and you should let them know that I just kept saying "Woooooowwwwww" at every paragraph as it rapidly descended from "White Man's Burden with the serial numbers filed off" All the way down to full on Turner Diaries poo poo with the serial numbers filed off.
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Mar 3, 2024 01:06
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AlliedBiscuit posted:Yeah, that was the part that REALLY made me pissed. Point your leftist mutual friends at them.
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Mar 3, 2024 01:06
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AlliedBiscuit posted:Israeli acquaintance shared this post. I’d really like to hear perspectives on it. I’m very much against Israel’s actions and want to push back tactfully. I think the author is moving in the correct direction but hasn't really grappled with the bit where there's no excuse for genocide, and until Israel stops committing genocide anything about Hamas' actions or (assholish) attitudes is really beside the point. My most successful tools for nudging the attitudes of people who aren't already full-throatedly against Israel's invasion (and preferably the preceding decades/generations of much slower genocidal activity) have just been leaning on the fact that it's happening. Because I'm me, and because I'm usually talking to people who are at least a little bit intellectually inclined, that often involves big picture statistics of how many Gazans are dead / starving / insufficiently watered, or settler fuckery in the West Bank, but any way that works for you is fine. Coincidentally, most of my posts in this thread are collecting / posting / examining that sort of data. Israel has all the power and is currently the one doing unspeakable atrocities. Hamas is not relevant. Gazan popular support for Hamas is not relevant. When Israel stops doing atrocities, then we can talk about Hamas. That's my pitch, and it's targeted directly at the tens (hundreds?) of millions of otherwise decent Americans who are drinking the Israel has a right to defend itself lines. I think getting into the weeds of Oct 7 with these folks is a dire strategic mistake but if anyone makes it work then fine whatever
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Mar 3, 2024 01:14
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The numbers here seem... high, but the UAE recently claimed it doubled the size of a Gaza border desalination facility and rather strongly implies the pipelines to Rafah are still working. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...foutputType=amp 4.5m liters a day isn't quite enough to supply all of Gaza's drinking water needs but there's still some purification and treatment capability inside Gaza. I can't find anything comprehensive more recent than the stuff I posted from January or whatever on the current situation but general reporting and UN / US / NGO complaints are that the water situation is still dire bordering on deadly. Some of that is because northern Gaza can't access anywhere near as much aid, but not all.
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Mar 3, 2024 02:04
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Sephyr posted:It seems...well-meaning, I guess. But also twisting itself into knots to avoid singling out any of the perpetrators and enablers of the current slaughter. And tripping on a lot of racist, horrible trope in doing so. Yeah, this is especially stupid because we have the Syrian civil war to look at and pretty much nothing even in that war compares in time + scale to what Israel has done in Gaza. If you extrapolate over a year at this rate, *at least* 70,000 Palestinians will have been killed (nb, this rough figure tallies well with the LSHTM report on projected casualties up to August). The Syrian civil war has seen some 300,000 civilians killed over the course of more than ten years. And the name "al-Assad" is basically synonymous with "evil mass murderer". So this whole "Oof, at least the Israelis aren't Arabs amirite" racist bollocks is completely reality-bending. e: Google Jeb Bush posted:The numbers here seem... high, but the UAE recently claimed it doubled the size of a Gaza border desalination facility and rather strongly implies the pipelines to Rafah are still working. I'm not sure what purification really exists within Gaza at the moment but: 1) The water supply is dependent upon "border authorities" per the article; and 2) That level of water could theoretically provide about 60%-ish, *if perfectly distributed*. 3) The Gaza strip, however, is mostly flat (cf the Al-Quds-Nablus-Al-Khalil nexus which is mostly hilly/mountainous). Piped water requires a couple of things to work - working pumping systems (including the electricity to support them) and/or vertical water storage to provide pressure. Both of which have been completely hosed by Israel. 4) Alternative is probably to bottle or access at border somehow (so basically for the x00,000s at Rafah) but either way quite the logistics nightmare in the middle of a genocide. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 02:13
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AlliedBiscuit posted:Israeli acquaintance shared this post. I’d really like to hear perspectives on it. I’m very much against Israel’s actions and want to push back tactfully. quote:But no, it isn't how they all work. Some movies, like "Dune", try to paint a more complex picture. And they usually fail, much like, I think, "Dune" fails (it's a great film, it just fails to accomplish what Villeneuve sought to accomplish). Real life, too, is much more complex than the binary allows. Israel has great military might, but is also hobbled by its own moral compass (if Israel were any other Arab country, Gaza would have been a parking lot by November 1). The Palestinians are terribly oppressed victims of a geopolitical chess game that they have no power to control, but are also bloodthirsty zealots who cheer for (and let's not forget - vote for) the rape and murder of their enemies. Many Israelis came from other parts of the world - or, their parents or grandparents did - but Jews are also indigenous to (only) the land of Israel. Palestinians are a 20th century invention of the Nazi-aligned Arab world to create a pressure point against British colonial rule in the Middle East, and they're also the lived and fully realized identity of millions of people who were born in a narrow sliver of land, and who are not welcome elsewhere in the Arab world. Ultimately, the entire piece is a dog whistle screed to Israeli ethnic superiority over Arabs. The author might even sincerely believe he is attempting to find the nuance in the situation, but his assumptions are so entirely set that he doesn't realize that his search for nuance is racist garbage. That's the best light you can put on the article. Rebel Blob fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 02:26
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I think the author is moving in the correct direction but hasn't really grappled with the bit where there's no excuse for genocide Oh he knows there's no excuse for genocide. He's just fully internalized the idea that everyone calling themselves "Palestinian" is secretly part of an elaborate psyop to make Israel look bad
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Mar 3, 2024 02:47
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I think the author is moving in the correct direction but hasn't really grappled with the bit where there's no excuse for genocide, and until Israel stops committing genocide anything about Hamas' actions or (assholish) attitudes is really beside the point. My most successful tools for nudging the attitudes of people who aren't already full-throatedly against Israel's invasion (and preferably the preceding decades/generations of much slower genocidal activity) have just been leaning on the fact that it's happening. Because I'm me, and because I'm usually talking to people who are at least a little bit intellectually inclined, that often involves big picture statistics of how many Gazans are dead / starving / insufficiently watered, or settler fuckery in the West Bank, but any way that works for you is fine. Coincidentally, most of my posts in this thread are collecting / posting / examining that sort of data. correct direction??? the entire thing is replete with full-throated white supremacy! are they moving in the right direction when they call palestinians a made-up ethnicity exploited by nefarious opportunists???
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Mar 3, 2024 02:55
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A big flaming stink posted:correct direction??? he's starting to question the Israeli right to commit genocide if they say Hamas is really bad. Baby steps ever been to the south (or well anywhere else in the us)? surely you've talked to people immersed in white supremacy who are recovering
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Mar 3, 2024 03:08
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AlliedBiscuit posted:Israeli acquaintance shared this post. I’d really like to hear perspectives on it. I’m very much against Israel’s actions and want to push back tactfully. "You see a movie about an oppressed people rising up against their cruel occupiers, immediately identify with the occupiers, and then begin making excuses for why your occupation is fine, you are a terrible human being and it disgusts me that we are associated in any way." with the "Hans, are we the baddies" image attached?
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Mar 3, 2024 03:23
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Google Jeb Bush posted:he's starting to question the Israeli right to commit genocide if they say Hamas is really bad. Baby steps
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Mar 3, 2024 03:24
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like, the op asked how to engage with this person productively. "probably don't, it's too much bother to untangle this poo poo, here's why" from that other effortposter is one valid take. "Don't, they're a psycho, just get mad" is a take that exists I guess. I was answering the question in a way that at least seeks to gently shepherd them towards being less lovely, in a way that has worked for me with some of the many, many people who subscribe to some or all of the bad ideas in that essay. because part of why I post here is to try and navigate my way to things I can use when talking to non goons
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Mar 3, 2024 03:33
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AlliedBiscuit posted:Yeah, that was the part that REALLY made me pissed.
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Mar 3, 2024 04:38
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Steve1989MREinfo needs to get to the bottom of this.
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Mar 3, 2024 04:46
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Google Jeb Bush posted:If your response to an increase in aid is to get angrier you should probably reassess your thinking. it's humiliation (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 3, 2024 04:47
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I think getting into the weeds of Oct 7 with these folks is a dire strategic mistake but if anyone makes it work then fine whatever While I personally don't like seeing discourse as some kind of battle where you need to think about rhetorical tricks (unfortunately it totally is in effect, I just don't like it!), I think this is very fundamental point. Because in greater scope of things, Oct 7th attack was just a symptom of a systemic issue. Basically it was inevitable that something like that would happen, and if we want to understand the conflict and see it solved, we have to look at the whole issue and don't get stuck in the weeds as you say. Hell, Israeli establishment very much realizes this too. It's just that their way of solving the issue is ethnic cleansing, annexation of West Bank and realization of Greater Israel with remnant Palestinian population neutered into walled off bantustans. Making Oct 7th the point of debate is like debating the details of Haitian conduct against French population of Haiti after their rebellion where the point should be to look at colonial and slavery institutions of Haiti.
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Mar 3, 2024 09:50
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Yeah you can be pragmatic about what causes terrorism to happen. Point out that the hamas militants of today are the children who lived through seeing their homes, friends and family torched by white phosphorous during Cast Lead. And Israel's current war on Gazans is ensuring nothing more than the perpetual animosity of the children that survive it. There is no middle ground for a future peace in Palestine that exists between Israel choosing not to retaliate and complete genocide. And since that guy is not willing to say "KILL EM ALL" there is only one option left for him to support. If there is a single fiber left in his being that sees Gazans as human, which it sounds like there might be, he should try to see things from the perspective of a 10 year old Gazan child and ask himself what options there are left for this person.
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Mar 3, 2024 10:34
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Tell your friend people who need fictional works to process real-world events are worse than Death Eaters
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Mar 3, 2024 11:34
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oops wrong thread
ELTON JOHN fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 12:56
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Paladinus posted:What's the source? I can't make out the expiration date or the TG channel.  Not really going to defend the Biden admin's decision to drop only 38,000 to feed up to 2 million people, but the expiration date say July 2026. Also, given the "Made In Jordan" label on the can, I believe this is probably from the Jordanian airdrops that have been happening since November. Could be mistaken since I'm seeing that the 38,000 meals were apparently a joint US/Jordanian project, but I would expect that US airdrops would be the "pink MRE" Humanitarian Daily Rations, which already have a menu formulated for Muslim dietary restrictions. Maybe they used Jordanian stocks or this was the only one just photographed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_daily_ration Randalor posted:"You see a movie about an oppressed people rising up against their cruel occupiers, immediately identify with the occupiers, and then begin making excuses for why your occupation is fine, you are a terrible human being and it disgusts me that we are associated in any way." with the "Hans, are we the baddies" image attached? Anyone who has followed the books can tell you that you probably shouldn't be identifying with the Harkonnens, goddamn, at all. Not only are they a culture of loving incestual child-raping cheats and schemers whose motto is "cruelty is the point", but the whole House stops existing after the first book, Paul wiping their memory from the universe. I am pretty sure the Israelis don't want either associations.
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Mar 3, 2024 14:56
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AlliedBiscuit posted:Israeli acquaintance shared this post. I’d really like to hear perspectives on it. I’m very much against Israel’s actions and want to push back tactfully. Okay, I by no means advocate that arguing back is a good idea but if you are going to here’s my random attempt you can use as you wish: Thanks for your thoughts, I can see you put some time into it and I fully agree with the principles of: - Not buying into simplistic narratives which result in there being a pure as white good guy and a dastardly evil bad guy. - Looking for nuance where it exists. For me rather than trying to simply label someone as ‘Oppressed’ and then supporting one particular side no matter what they do, my basis for looking at these kind of conflicts is to have a set of standards that I hold and judge all parties by. For me this is largely based in international military law, the set of treaties and conventions which largely came into being in the post-WW2 era when people who had seen first-hand the horrors inflicted during the war said “never again” and laid down a set of international laws for what is acceptable in conflict, to try and ensure that the horrors never reoccurred. While the enforcement of those laws leaves a lot to be desired and too many perpetrators go free, I do think that it gives us a method for judging countries that is independent and can be applies regardless of any labels you wish to add. You can believe that the Palestinians are oppressed (and I think it would be very hard to argue they’re not) and victims of colonialism and still criticise Hamas for attacks on civilians on Oct 7th as war crimes. Oppressed people can still commit war crimes and atrocities – Nat Turner’s slave rebellion in the US killed children. You can believe Israel isn’t an oppressor and isn’t a coloniser and still criticise them for the attacks on civilians in the past months as war crimes. It’s an independent standard and one that sadly neither Hamas nor Israel manages to meet. In some ways this perhaps makes it nuanced as there is no side that is ‘the good guy’ but in others it’s fairly simplistic; no excuses or qualifications, those who commit war crimes are doing horrific wrongs. I think perhaps where you post starts to fall foul of its own criticisms and it is worth taking a more neutral view like the one I advocate above is when it comes to colonialism. You spend quite a point of time putting forward arguments about why Israel shouldn’t be considered colonial. Now insofar as it applies to people who may mindlessly think “Israel = colonialism = bad”, that’s true. However it seems like you are also buying into the inverse of that argument, “Israel = not colonial = good”. The truth is that colonialism is a label, one applied to different countries at different times and generally bound up with all kinds of human rights abuses and war crimes. But plenty of non-colonial nations carry out human rights abuses and war crimes too. If the Trail of Tears had been carried out by some Native American diaspora nation against other Native Americans and wasn’t colonial, would it have been any less tragic? Not really. So whether it is colonial doesn’t really seem to matter as that this has no bearing on the human rights abuses and war crimes being committed right now, which is the crux of the matter. Whether you use the label of colonialism, apartheid, human rights abuses, occupier, war crimes, etc – if the acts they refer to are the same then the name you assign changes nothing. To turn a phrase, a war crime by any other name is just as atrocious. To me the argument over whether Israel should be considered colonial seems at best semantic and at worst it seems to ignore suffering committed by Palestinians; implying that as it’s not colonial bombing of hospitals or killing of civilians that it is acceptable. Lastly I’d just point out is that while you acknowledged the situation is nuanced, you also combine that with blanket statements dehumanising Palestinians and so I’d suggest being more empathic and willing to acknowledge the humanity on both sides. While I’m sure there are Palestinians who are “bloodthirsty zealots”, I’m sure the same is true of Israelis. I don’t think it does anyone any good to demonise an entire people. After all, couldn’t someone just as easily use your own logic to say that Israelis are bloodthirsty zealots who support and have voted for a government that carries out ethnic cleansing and killing of civilians (Multiple times even, more often than Palestinians have)? I think it’s always worth remembering some of the best people on both sides – the rabbis for peace who will volunteer to be human shields for Palestinian farmers when Israeli settlers try and stone them or the thousands of Gazans who risked their lives against gunfire to peacefully protest just a few years back. With that said my final thought about the situation is that the continuing war needs to stop as soon as possible. Palestinians civilians are dying en-masse every day and the situation only seems to be getting worse. Israel is the one that is currently failing to meet that metric of “are you committing war crimes” so I hope that there is a ceasefire as soon as possible and then that can be used to arrange a lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians. Edit: For context this is trying to thread needle between not being too aggressive against a person with obviously hosed up beliefs, still calling them out on some of their bullshit and giving OP the cover of “Just being very centrist and neutral and applying the same standards to both sides”. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 15:05
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Young Freud posted:
I don't know, to me that last number looks like it may be a 3, or a 5, or a 6. But I also couldn't find any confirmation that it is what's being air-dropped by the US. Anyway, it's really a minor point, considering how little aid is getting into Gaza by air or by land in the first place.
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Mar 3, 2024 15:24
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AlliedBiscuit posted:Yeah, that was the part that REALLY made me pissed. With half of their nonsense being reduced to Dune analogies it's already in a bad place. It's a rhetorical trick to replace a real happening event with a fictional one so that one can borrow moral analysis from the fiction even if it absolutely doesn't apply. This piece is full of Zionist supremacy talking points so I don't really know how to attack it, but good on you if you try I suppose. These talking points about Palestinians being "invented" are disgusting and is intended to delegitimize them as a people. All identities are invented and are real only insofar as other people accept that identity. The same applies to states, corporations, and any of the other myriad imaginary things that humans have created. Israel is not a colonizer because its people have no connection to the land, it's a colonizer because its people arrived, eventually did the Nakba, and continued to drive Palestinians out of their homes, building their own settlements that are internationally recognized as illegal. And then the current apartheid situation. Honestly, it's all just a load of meaningless bollocks because the current situation is that Israel is war-criming and genociding every single day and there is no justification for it. I want to know what the hell this person is reading and hearing in headlines and radio in New England that's making them mad because it's all very pro-Israel. Sounds like they're just upset about hearing about Israel's atrocities and would rather be ignorant. Given their comments about Palestinian identity, I suspect this person is a Nakba denialist, at least in some form. If so, I don't know how you actually have a discussion with such a person.
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Mar 3, 2024 15:48
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Fidelitious posted:Given their comments about Palestinian identity, I suspect this person is a Nakba denialist, at least in some form. If so, I don't know how you actually have a discussion with such a person. Conversely, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to have a discussion with people who are prone to hyperbole, don't know what "genocide" means, and who are all too willing to forgive or ignore one side's crimes because its "their" side. It is rare for me to find any discussion about this subject that isn't prone to such things - that is all too ready to utterly demonize the side they don't like while expressing the virtues of the side they do like. In those circumstances, people are taking up extreme positions without any real thinking as to what might be a better way forward that doesn't involve wiping out the other side to the last. I can't deal with extremists. I don't know how to deal with pro-Israeli types who want to do full-on ethnic cleansing and don't reflect at all on how the present situation has come about, and I don't know how to deal with pro-Palestine types who are pretty much just like their pro-Israeli counterparts, but in reverse. At this point, I find both sides of this conflict to be lovely if they spend their time cheerleading or pushing the agenda of a "side" rather than looking at things on a human level. Namely... where do we go from here? What is the next step that may lead to a better future outcome? Because unless you are willing to do full 100% genocide, which is explicitly not okay, then these two groups have to find a way to live together. This conflict doesn't need more fighters. It needs people who actually want to try to find a better solution.
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Mar 3, 2024 16:39
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I'm in new England, and just this week I heard a discussion on the local NPR stations programming. A woman suggested that maybe Israel's goals (being "destroy hamas", which everybody seems to find a justified baseline) couldn't be met by displacing starving and murdering thousands and thousands of people. I was happy to hear even that small dissent. The other commentators swiftly asserted that hamas is evil, backed by Iran, our enemies! As if to object to Israel's actions (or our complicity) was to fall for enemy propaganda, or to court antisemitism. How elegant... the other guys are evil, the "bad guys", and thus we are the good guys. Hamas hates jews, nothing can stop this but Palestinians renouncing them! Surely they must realize that when Israel is killing everybody they know, it's hamas fault. Unless they themselves.... poo poo for brains loving ghouls, I won't be listening to that station anymore I don't need that much anger. As for your acquaintance, good luck. This isn't something I've had much success even beginning to discuss with people. They will immediately nope out (victim of bad vibes), or bring things to an absolute black and white "with us or against us" point (Way more people died in the holocaust than are dying in Gaza!). And frustratingly (though I haven't observed this in media), several who've been willing to discuss this enthusiastically start talking about how "the jews" own the banks and media. They complain about being labeled antisemites for being critical of Israel, but can't avoid wielding those tropes. It seems pretty loving hopeless and most every day I wish I could teleport somebody into gaza so they could be a very adult hard decision understander up close.
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Mar 3, 2024 16:41
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Yureina posted:I can't deal with extremists. I don't know how to deal with pro-Israeli types who want to do full-on ethnic cleansing and don't reflect at all on how the present situation has come about, and I don't know how to deal with pro-Palestine types who are pretty much just like their pro-Israeli counterparts, but in reverse.
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Mar 3, 2024 16:42
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Yureina posted:This conflict doesn't need more fighters. It needs people who actually want to try to find a better solution. Remember when Palestinians asked for their lands back peacefully and then hundreds of people got shot in the knees on purpose? There is no "better solution" when one side does not want to negotiate peace and wants to keep killing people because they don't believe they are people.
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Mar 3, 2024 16:58
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Yureina posted:At this point, I find both sides of this conflict to be lovely if they spend their time cheerleading or pushing the agenda of a "side" rather than looking at things on a human level. Namely... where do we go from here? What is the next step that may lead to a better future outcome? Because unless you are willing to do full 100% genocide, which is explicitly not okay, then these two groups have to find a way to live together. This conflict doesn't need more fighters. It needs people who actually want to try to find a better solution. Two state solution based on 1967 borders. We know what the solution is. It’s been known and internationally agreed for several decades. Israel refuses to agree to its side, so it’s a case of putting pressure on Israel until it does so.
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Mar 3, 2024 17:09
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Israel has proven time and again it will not, so in reality the only solution is one state called Palestine.
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Mar 3, 2024 17:11
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Israel has proven time and again it will not, so in reality the only solution is one state called Palestine. The West has proven time and time again that it will not allow this, so if we're doing that, the only "solution" is one state called Israel and several big holes in the ground where the genocide happened.
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Mar 3, 2024 17:18
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Yeah a two state solution seems like a dead end. Israel has proven they'll just use it as an excuse to increase the size of Israel at the expense of Palestinian land. A single state solution with equal rights for both sides is the only way forward. And proper trials to bring justice to the Zionists behind the genocide.
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Mar 3, 2024 17:19
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Gaddafi was right, there can only be one way forward, Israstine must rise.
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Mar 3, 2024 17:23
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Nobody will be held accountable for war crimes. Brute force will be exercised in the name of stability and You get to declare yourself the good guy after the enemy is sufficiently diminished dominated or dead. You can even do it without much pushback while you're engaged in the slaughter!
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Mar 3, 2024 17:55
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Yureina posted:Conversely, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to have a discussion with people who are prone to hyperbole, don't know what "genocide" means, and who are all too willing to forgive or ignore one side's crimes because its "their" side. It is rare for me to find any discussion about this subject that isn't prone to such things - that is all too ready to utterly demonize the side they don't like while expressing the virtues of the side they do like. In those circumstances, people are taking up extreme positions without any real thinking as to what might be a better way forward that doesn't involve wiping out the other side to the last. I can't deal with extremists. I don't know how to deal with pro-Israeli types who want to do full-on ethnic cleansing and don't reflect at all on how the present situation has come about, and I don't know how to deal with pro-Palestine types who are pretty much just like their pro-Israeli counterparts, but in reverse. It's almost like this isn't a conflict between two equal sides, but a conflict between a settler-colonial fascist state, and the inmates of a concentration camp they're running. Your South Park outlook has no place in this discussion. Insisting that the truth must be in the middle doesn't make you sophisticated or able to see nuance, it just makes you come off like you only just heard about this conflict today. You're basically asking why Poland can't just find a way to live alongside the invading Nazis. Regarding where we go from here, if your belief is that genocide is wrong, Israel cannot be allowed to continue to exist in its current form. It is a settler-colonial white (for a definition of white) supremacist state, and those don't exist without the oppression and exploitation of the outgroup, enforced by violence and cycles of "mowing the grass". The way for these two groups to live together is with the South Africa model: Israel needs to lose international support, have their economy damaged, and lose military conflicts as often as possible, so they are forced to negotiate with the Palestinians, and so it is clear that the ethnostate project is dead. I don't think this is likely to actually happen, but it is the way to stop the violence. As long as Israel exists, the violence will continue. If they successfully kill or evict all the Palestinians, they'll just take aim at Lebanon or one of their other neighbors. Esran fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 18:00
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Yureina posted:and who are all too willing to forgive or ignore one side's crimes because its "their" side. I'm going to just quote this back. Let it linger. Stare at you in deathly silence. And just wait until you maybe get it. team overhead smash posted:Two state solution based on 1967 borders. Counterpoint : one state solution where the violent, foreign, self-avowed colonizers *finally gently caress off*. It's worked for Vietnam, and India, and Zimbabwe, and Haiti (caveats apply), and Algeria, and Ireland (summat)... (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Kobal2 fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 18:03
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