Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; Can't post for 5 hours!

A big flaming stink posted:

This doesn't appear to address ilyich's point that military action against Ansarallah has proven to be supremely ineffective. At the present moment, the diplomatic solution is the only one that offers a clear path towards ending the blockade of the red sea.

The Houthi attacks have also been supremely ineffective so I agree to a diplomatic solution that the Houthi stop attacking civilian ships and that the military action likewise cease immediately, allowing food and medicine to reach Sudan.

# ? Feb 22, 2024 17:25

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# ? May 11, 2024 14:56

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Rust Martialis posted:

The Houthi attacks have also been supremely ineffective

Israel's economy has seen a contraction of 5% (20% projected annually should trends continue). Eliat is barren. Haifa is seeing delays. This is literally the time to apply economic pressure. Pretending that it's worthless because it won't singlehandedly stop Israel is playing dumb to avoid acknowledging otherwise.

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# ? Feb 22, 2024 17:43

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019; Can't post for 35 hours!

Rust Martialis posted:

The Houthi attacks have also been supremely ineffective

These things would not happen if the actions were "supremely ineffective":
Britain Confronts Fears of a (Gasp!) Tea Shortage

Oil and shipping giants suspend Red Sea operations after Houthi attacks

Red Sea chaos jacks up relocation costs for feds around the world

Turkish exports impacted by Red Sea crisis: �Kızıldeniz�deki g�venlik krizi ihracatta rekabeti zorluyor�

mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Feb 22, 2024

# ? Feb 22, 2024 17:59

Plastic_Gargoyle: Aug 3, 2007

mawarannahr posted:

These things would not happen if the actions were "supremely ineffective":
Britain Confronts Fears of a (Gasp!) Tea Shortage

Oil and shipping giants suspend Red Sea operations after Houthi attacks

Red Sea chaos jacks up relocation costs for feds around the world

Turkish exports impacted by Red Sea crisis: �Kızıldeniz�deki g�venlik krizi ihracatta rekabeti zorluyor�

And these relate to stopping Israel's actions in Gaza how precisely?

Never mind that it ignores the very real issues raised regarding food supplies in Northeast Africa?

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# ? Feb 22, 2024 19:15

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019; Can't post for 35 hours!

Plastic_Gargoyle posted:

And these relate to stopping Israel's actions in Gaza how precisely?

Never mind that it ignores the very real issues raised regarding food supplies in Northeast Africa?

It is causing damage to the actors supporting Israel's genocide. It will not stop until after this support is ceased. It is the most effective sanction I am aware of at the moment. "Supremely ineffective" would describe something like posting on the SA forums, not that.

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# ? Feb 22, 2024 19:18

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

Electric Wrigglies posted:

To be fair, they were using the phrase as a defense long after the US had stopped routinely "lynching negros"

What year did this happen in?

# ? Feb 22, 2024 20:04

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

lol:

https://x.com/xiranjayzhao/status/1760984024011702384?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

# ? Feb 23, 2024 12:32

Electric Wrigglies: Feb 6, 2015

420 Gank Mid posted:

What year did this happen in?

The important word was "routinely" in the early 20th century it was more than 150 (once every two days is routinely for me) a year but was less than 30 a year by the 30's and much less since about the 50's. The Soviet Union was using that nasty history as a cudgel in the 70's and 80's. To my shame, I just Wikipedia-ed to confirm my memories so can't link you to the appropriate sources offhand.

# ? Feb 23, 2024 15:24

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

I assume this counts as new information about the Houthis & their blockade.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/23/politics/concern-biden-administration-houthi-strikes/index.html

Concern grows within Biden administration as Houthis continue attacks despite US strikes

quote:

The Biden administration is struggling to stop the ongoing attacks by the Iran-backed Houthis against ships in the Red Sea and the group is continuing to fortify its weapons stockpile inside Yemen, even though the US has carried out significant strikes on the group in recent weeks, US officials told CNN.

“We know that the Houthis maintain a large arsenal,” Deputy Pentagon Press Secretary Sabrina Singh said on Thursday, hours after the Houthis hit yet another cargo vessel in the Gulf of Aden with ballistic missiles. “They are very capable, they have sophisticated weapons, and that’s because they continue to get them from Iran.”

US officials have been grappling with how to increase the pressure on the Houthis, with some inside the administration arguing that the use of force alone is not working. It is also extremely expensive and impractical, some officials note, to keep firing multimillion-dollar missiles at cheap Houthi drones and missiles.
Outside the administration, some former officials argue the administration has taken too conservative of an approach altogether and needs to focus on targeting Houthi leaders rather than their weapon stocks.

The US strategy for confronting the Houthis has shifted since the attacks began in October insofar as US Central Command has begun regularly striking Houthi weaponry inside Yemen pre-emptively, when the US can see systems being prepared to launch.

But multiple officials told CNN that the US still does not have “a denominator” that would allow them to assess the percentage of Houthi equipment they have actually destroyed, and it is not clear whether the US will shift its military approach further.

“They continue to surprise us,” said one senior defense official, referring to the Houthis. “We just don’t have a good idea of what they still have.”
While the US has hit dozens of Houthi targets inside Yemen since January—including command and control nodes and weapons storage facilities—the Houthis are in turn digging in, officials said, building tunnels near Yemen’s western coast and more regularly staying underground.

Some inside the administration say it is a positive sign that the Houthis appear to be spending more time underground between attacks—they are being forced to hide, which suggests that the military strikes are having at least a psychological impact.

The Houthis are also extremely concerned about their senior leadership being targeted in a strike and have become increasingly paranoid, two officials said.

For some former US officials who spoke to CNN on the condition of anonymity, the fact that the US has not yet hit Houthi leadership and has instead focused on destroying weapons and equipment is a large part of why the US has failed to meaningfully deter the group.

“The US campaign against the Houthis appears to bear the hallmarks of many of these highly circumscribed, scrubbed campaigns of the past where we seek to avoid causing them actual pain,” said one former US military official.

Former officials point to the apparent success the administration has had in deterring Iran-backed militias in Iraq and Syria by striking their leaders. After these militants killed three Americans in Jordan in January, the US carried out a strike inside Baghdad on February 7 that killed two key militia commanders. The attacks have since stopped entirely, the Pentagon has said. Officials also believe Iran instructed the groups to back off the attacks following the US strikes.

The issue is becoming more acute, especially given the notable increase in Houthi attacks over the last two days. The Houthis’ deployment for the first-time last week of an unmanned underwater drone also alarmed US officials.

That drone was ultimately destroyed by US forces. But unmanned surface and subsurface vessels are “more of an unknown threat” that could be “extremely lethal,” Rear Admiral Marc Miguez, the commander of Carrier Strike Group 2, told CNN last week. He said the US has “very little fidelity as to all the stockpiles the Houthis have” of those kinds of weapons.

It’s also unclear whether the Biden administration could meaningfully ramp up its military action against Houthi targets, in particular to target Houthi leaders inside of Yemen, without first grappling with some of the open questions around the legality of the campaign. Some lawmakers on Capitol Hill have questioned whether the Biden administration would need authorization from Congress to carry on the campaign past a 60-day limit imposed by the 1973 War Powers Resolution. Theoretically, that 60-day deadline could expire March 12, two months after the first major strikes the administration carried out inside of Yemen itself

The US, some argue, now needs to shift to a stronger international pressure campaign and better underscore how the attacks are impeding humanitarian aid shipments to vulnerable populations—including the people of Yemen.

The Houthis are very concerned with their domestic public image, officials said, and have tried to cast themselves as scrappy underdogs fighting for the betterment of Palestinian lives and an end to Israel’s war in Gaza. While the Houthis are not very popular in the areas of Yemen they control, the Palestinian cause itself is popular amongst Yemenis, officials noted.

Some senior officials inside the administration therefore believe that the Houthis would keep their word and stop their attacks if Israel ended its war in Gaza, something some former officials privately say is wishful thinking.

Publicly, the administration has repeatedly downplayed the Houthis’ claims that they are attacking ships as a way to pressure Israel into a ceasefire, noting that most of the targets have no ties at all to Israel or its allies.

Privately, however, some senior officials concede it is entirely possible the Houthis will stop if Israel does—and they point to the fact that the Houthi attacks largely subsided in November during a 7-day pause in fighting between Israel and Hamas.

Still, officials say they cannot wait to see whether a ceasefire materializes to respond to the Houthis’ aggression. The State Department and Pentagon have therefore been working to turn both ordinary Yemenis and the international community further against them and began more forcefully challenging the militants’ narrative this week.

State Department spokesman Matthew Miller and the Pentagon’s Singh both highlighted a Houthi attack on a ship that was bringing corn and other food supplies to the Yemeni people in Aden, and Singh noted that another ship hit by a missile and currently sinking in the Red Sea was carrying fertilizer and now poses a significant environmental risk to the region.

Officials told CNN on Friday that the sinking ship, the Rubymar, has now left an 18-mile oil slick in the area. The Belize-flagged, UK-registered, Lebanese-owned vessel was carrying 41,000 tons of fertilizer when it was struck on Monday, the officials said.

“The Houthis are creating an environmental hazard right in their own backyard,” Singh said on Thursday. “They’re saying that they’re conducting these attacks against ships that are connected to Israel. These are ships that are literally bringing goods, services, aid to their own people, and they’re creating their own international problem.”

One key aspect of this international pressure campaign is support from the US’ Arab allies. The US has managed to get some key regional partners on board with the operation to defend commercial shipping in the Red Sea, known as Operation Prosperity Guardian, including Oman and Bahrain.

But officials say more needs to be done to convey to the Houthis that they are becoming a pariah on the global stage. Even Iran, which has long backed the Houthis but does not have perfect command and control over them, has become increasingly concerned about the rebels’ tactics, CNN previously reported.

Still, there are no signs yet that Iran is actively withholding support from the Houthis, officials said. The US has continued to interdict Iranian weapons shipments to Houthi-controlled areas of Yemen, including as recently as earlier this month.

TLDR:
- America has no way of knowing how much ordinance the Houthis still have.
- It's eye-wateringly expensive to loiter gunboats around and fire missiles at lawnmowers
- By jumping to bombing as a warning instead of diplomacy, they've inspired the Houthis to go underground, making them even harder to target & identify, which will likely continue to be a problem in future conflicts.
- Some people in the state department are literally brainless, and believe martyrdom of their leaders will make the houthis less aggressive.
- Despite efforts to downplay the connection, privately the state department does believe in the connection between the attacks and the Gaza genocide, and that the Houthis would stop their attacks to claim an end to the genocide as a victory.
- However they cant do this, because "waiting for a ceasefire would be too long without a response" which I personally interpret as "Biden doesn't want one."
- So instead they're taking the tact of attempting to make them an international pariah, pointing out that the attacks cause trouble for other countries and themselves, perhaps bring up Sudan a lot?
- I don't personally think this will work, because Houthis already have experience withstanding full-force bombing and blockades, and Saudi Arabia isn't going to collapse their China-brokered deal just to make Joe Biden more comfortable.
- Iran also appears to not care at the moment, despite rumormongering about them becoming concerned.

If I get in contact with a state official, I'll point them to this thread so that they can understand that the houthi are common pirates.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Feb 24, 2024

# ? Feb 24, 2024 00:37

Esran: Apr 28, 2008

Neurolimal posted:

- So instead they're taking the tact of attempting to make them an international pariah, pointing out that the attacks cause trouble for other countries and themselves, perhaps bring up Sudan a lot?

If the State Department thinks anyone would believe that American concerns for the people of Yemen or Sudan is genuine, they really are brainless.

# ? Feb 24, 2024 00:45

Vernii: Dec 7, 2006

Esran posted:

If the State Department thinks anyone would believe that American concerns for the people of Yemen or Sudan is genuine, they really are brainless.

The state department got hollowed out by Tillerson and I doubt the brain drain got fixed in just a single term, so it genuinely probably is operating out of its depth right now.

# ? Feb 24, 2024 02:19

Grip it and rip it: Apr 28, 2020

Neurolimal posted:

I assume this counts as new information about the Houthis & their blockade.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/23/politics/concern-biden-administration-houthi-strikes/index.html

Concern grows within Biden administration as Houthis continue attacks despite US strikes

TLDR:
- America has no way of knowing how much ordinance the Houthis still have.
- It's eye-wateringly expensive to loiter gunboats around and fire missiles at lawnmowers
- By jumping to bombing as a warning instead of diplomacy, they've inspired the Houthis to go underground, making them even harder to target & identify, which will likely continue to be a problem in future conflicts.
- Some people in the state department are literally brainless, and believe martyrdom of their leaders will make the houthis less aggressive.
- Despite efforts to downplay the connection, privately the state department does believe in the connection between the attacks and the Gaza genocide, and that the Houthis would stop their attacks to claim an end to the genocide as a victory.
- However they cant do this, because "waiting for a ceasefire would be too long without a response" which I personally interpret as "Biden doesn't want one."
- So instead they're taking the tact of attempting to make them an international pariah, pointing out that the attacks cause trouble for other countries and themselves, perhaps bring up Sudan a lot?
- I don't personally think this will work, because Houthis already have experience withstanding full-force bombing and blockades, and Saudi Arabia isn't going to collapse their China-brokered deal just to make Joe Biden more comfortable.
- Iran also appears to not care at the moment, despite rumormongering about them becoming concerned.

If I get in contact with a state official, I'll point them to this thread so that they can understand that the houthi are common pirates.

Is any of this new information or a new topic for discussion? The only real interesting part of that article was the 60-day window in which the DoD can operate without further authorization from congress.

# ? Feb 24, 2024 02:38

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Grip it and rip it posted:

Is any of this new information or a new topic for discussion? The only real interesting part of that article was the 60-day window in which the DoD can operate without further authorization from congress.

I'd argue that it's novel insofar as state department officials are reinforcing the claim that the attacks would stop if the genocide stops, a tangent that Illych had been defending for a couple posts.

# ? Feb 24, 2024 02:51

Grip it and rip it: Apr 28, 2020

Neurolimal posted:

I'd argue that it's novel insofar as state department officials are reinforcing the claim that the attacks would stop if the genocide stops, a tangent that Illych had been defending for a couple posts.

Yes, and all it took was sinking a ship full of aid for the Yemeni people in Aden. Guess they needed to do a little more research about the ships they are interdicting.

# ? Feb 24, 2024 07:02

celadon: Jan 2, 2023

if 'economic disruption is worse than genocide' is a broadly held belief, China should be allowed to do whatever it pleases within its sphere of influence, as any action taken against China, one of the biggest fish in the global economic pond, would disrupt world trade to a staggering level and cause unknowable global immiseration. If people do not think that China should be given free reign to operate wherever they can, even though trying to stop them would cause who knows how much suffering, it'd be worth fleshing out the differences between that situation and the one being discussed.

Additionally, I also agree that causing any amount of civilian casualties, or even taking actions that theoretically could cause civilian casualties, is innately unjust and worthy of condemnation. Accordingly, Operation Overlord was a crude and brutal flex of power, and the West should have avoided landing in Normandy because of the tens of thousands of French casualties inflicted by their senseless assault. Possibly a later or more carefully crafted operation would have been more prudent, optimally one which would have resulted in zero civilian casualties. In any case the actions taken by the United States and Great Britain should be throroughly condemned.

# ? Feb 24, 2024 08:50

Esran: Apr 28, 2008

Grip it and rip it posted:

Is any of this new information or a new topic for discussion? The only real interesting part of that article was the 60-day window in which the DoD can operate without further authorization from congress.

Their post is good and adds lots of new information, they even summarized it in in bullet form.

Some State Department officials believe Ansar Allah would stop the attacks if the genocide stopped, and the US is deliberately minimizing the connection between the genocide and the attacks as a propaganda strategy. The article also outlines the Houthi motivation for why they might stop the attacks: It's extremely popular domestically to be seen taking action to end the genocide (successful or not), and the Houthis care about domestic support. It goes on to provide evidence supporting this belief: Ansar Allah stopped their attacks during the ceasefire in November.

There is also confirmation that the US is adopting a strategy of whataboutism, trying to discredit the Houthis in the eyes of others in the region by faking concern about the environment or the welfare of the people of Yemen.

If you don't see how this is both new information and relevant to some of the arguments being made in this thread, I don't know what to say.

Esran fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Feb 24, 2024

# ? Feb 24, 2024 10:10

Vernii: Dec 7, 2006

Grip it and rip it posted:

Yes, and all it took was sinking a ship full of aid for the Yemeni people in Aden. Guess they needed to do a little more research about the ships they are interdicting.

Rubymar's destination was Belarus, and it was carrying fertilizer, not aid. Unless they sunk a new ship in the last 24 hours that hasn't shown up in the news yet, this is a nonsense post.

# ? Feb 24, 2024 16:05

Grip it and rip it: Apr 28, 2020

Vernii posted:

Rubymar's destination was Belarus, and it was carrying fertilizer, not aid. Unless they sunk a new ship in the last 24 hours that hasn't shown up in the news yet, this is a nonsense post.

There was another ship, according to the article that has provided fresh insights about the conflict.

Esran posted:

Their post is good and adds lots of new information, they even summarized it in in bullet form.

Yeah I suppose the article does clarify that the Houthi have undertaken this very visibly ineffective effort in order to drum up the kind of legitimacy that they lack domestically.

Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Feb 24, 2024

# ? Feb 24, 2024 17:16

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

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Grip it and rip it posted:

There was another ship, according to the article that has provided fresh insights about the conflict.

Yeah I suppose the article does clarify that the Houthi have undertaken this very visibly ineffective effort in order to drum up the kind of legitimacy that they lack domestically.

It doesn't actually name the ship though. Do you have a link to it or some further info on the attack?

# ? Feb 24, 2024 18:38

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

Vernii posted:

Rubymar's destination was Belarus, and it was carrying fertilizer, not aid. Unless they sunk a new ship in the last 24 hours that hasn't shown up in the news yet, this is a nonsense post.

Serious question, how does a container ship have Belarus as a destination? Don�t they need to report a port as a destination?

# ? Feb 24, 2024 19:02

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

Saladman posted:

Serious question, how does a container ship have Belarus as a destination? Don�t they need to report a port as a destination?

Varna, Bulgaria is the listed definition, which is a port city.

Josef bugman posted:

It doesn't actually name the ship though. Do you have a link to it or some further info on the attack?

It was the Egypt-bound Indian-owned (or at least the ship owner is HQ'd in India, but reports say UK-owned) Palau-flagged cargo ship Islander. It was rescued by an Indian warship.

Kchama fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Feb 25, 2024

# ? Feb 25, 2024 01:13

Esran: Apr 28, 2008

The Houthis offer to allow towing of the Rubymar in exchange for allowing aid into Gaza

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/houthis-demand-entry-of-relief-into-gaza-in-exchange-for-salvaging-sunken-british-ship/3147247

The position that the Houthis are doing stochastic piracy to steal goods, and only using the genocide as an excuse, is becoming increasingly untenable.

Esran fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Feb 25, 2024

# ? Feb 25, 2024 19:50

Tangy Zizzle: Aug 22, 2007; - brad

They're also now charging tolls to European shipping, and it's bankrolling their government

https://shebaintelligence.uk/european-ships-pay-money-to-sail-safely-in-red-sea-off-yemen

quote:

A Western diplomatic source told Sheba Intelligence that European companies began about a month ago paying money to the Ansar Allah (Houthi) group in return for the safe passage of their ships in the Red Sea.

The sources said that the money paid by European ships goes to external bank accounts affiliated with companies owned and managed by the official Houthi spokesperson, Mohammed Abdel Salam.

The source estimated the average amount of money requested by the Houthis on each ship to be about half a million dollars. "There are ships that pay nearly a million dollars or less, and these amounts remain less than the operational cost that the ship needs if it passes through the Cape of Good Hope," the source said.

The source seems sus but imo it was only a matter of time until people starting paying off the Houthis for slightly less than their costs to ship things around the Cape

# ? Feb 25, 2024 20:01

Esran: Apr 28, 2008

quote:

Sheba Intelligence is an Open - Source Intelligence Platform Offering Precise Investigations & Reports.

The site is run by dorks like Brown Moses, yeah I'd say that's a little bit sus. What I quoted is the full extent of what that site has to say about who they are.

The Houthis deny this.

https://shebaintelligence.uk/yemens-houthis-confirm-talks-with-eu-deny-receiving-money-from-ships-in-red-sea

So the sourcing on this is "A Western diplomatic source", "Informed sources" and "a source in the Yemeni government" (this is presumably the Yemeni government currently at war with the Houthis), posted anonymously by an OSINT guy (i.e. "citizen journalist")

Might want to hold off on running with this until the story becomes more than a rumour.

Esran fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Feb 25, 2024

# ? Feb 25, 2024 20:16

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

Sus is right. If this is true then a reputable publication will get wind of it soon.

# ? Feb 25, 2024 20:19

Grip it and rip it: Apr 28, 2020

Esran posted:

The Houthis offer to allow towing of the Rubymar in exchange for allowing aid into Gaza

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/houthis-demand-entry-of-relief-into-gaza-in-exchange-for-salvaging-sunken-british-ship/3147247

The position that the Houthis are doing stochastic piracy to steal goods, and only using the genocide as an excuse, is becoming increasingly untenable.

They're asking for someone to come clean up the massive environmental issue that they're responsible for that's right off of their coast. On what planet would Israel give a single poo poo about a sunken British vessel off the coast of Yemen?

Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Feb 26, 2024

# ? Feb 26, 2024 01:51

Esran: Apr 28, 2008

Grip it and rip it posted:

On what planet would Israel give a single poo poo about a sunken British vessel off the coast of Yemen?

In what way is this relevant to what I posted?

# ? Feb 26, 2024 02:14

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

I don't think it's supposed to be direct pressure on Israel anyway in THIS specific case, beyond the brother "the red sea being dangerous for shipping is has some consequences that nobody can agree on the degree of to Israel's economy." It's a broader "hey rest of the world who we hope wants these things, get your act together in regards to pressuring israel."

# ? Feb 26, 2024 02:26

Butter Activities: May 4, 2018

The Houthis interest in Gaza is obviously fake, unlike our very deeply held sincere concern for shipping containers uh I mean hypothetical merchant mariners and people in Sudan that I�ve connected to this, somehow

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# ? Feb 26, 2024 04:29

Grip it and rip it: Apr 28, 2020

Esran posted:

In what way is this relevant to what I posted?

They're the ones who decide whether aid trucks go into Gaza?

# ? Feb 26, 2024 06:27

RaffyTaffy: Oct 15, 2008

Josef bugman posted:

It doesn't actually name the ship though. Do you have a link to it or some further info on the attack?

The Sea Champion was attacked on its way into Aden about a week ago might be confusion about that one.

https://www.reuters.com/world/greek-ship-attacked-red-sea-by-houthis-arrives-aden-with-cargo-2024-02-20/

# ? Feb 26, 2024 15:24

Esran: Apr 28, 2008

Grip it and rip it posted:

They're the ones who decide whether aid trucks go into Gaza?

I guess the UK had better start pressuring Israel to let in aid then, if they want their boat back?

The Houthis obviously aren't expecting Israel to care about ships that don't belong to them, because that would be dumb.

# ? Feb 26, 2024 17:38

Grip it and rip it: Apr 28, 2020

Esran posted:

I guess the UK had better start pressuring Israel to let in aid then, if they want their boat back?

The Houthis obviously aren't expecting Israel to care about ships that don't belong to them, because that would be dumb.

Why would they want a sunk boat back? It's cargo is spilling into the Red Sea. It's only value would be for scrap, and that would have to be towed all the way back to a friendly port to be harvested. These attacks have no chance of inspiring the kind of response that you are hoping for. That's why they're counter productive. It's a sideshow that is actively harming people in the region undertaken to try and claim legitimacy through violence.

# ? Feb 26, 2024 19:06

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

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RaffyTaffy posted:

The Sea Champion was attacked on its way into Aden about a week ago might be confusion about that one.

https://www.reuters.com/world/greek-ship-attacked-red-sea-by-houthis-arrives-aden-with-cargo-2024-02-20/

Thanks for the info!

# ? Feb 26, 2024 19:21

Esran: Apr 28, 2008

Grip it and rip it posted:

Why would they want a sunk boat back? It's cargo is spilling into the Red Sea. It's only value would be for scrap, and that would have to be towed all the way back to a friendly port to be harvested. These attacks have no chance of inspiring the kind of response that you are hoping for. That's why they're counter productive. It's a sideshow that is actively harming people in the region undertaken to try and claim legitimacy through violence.

Condemning acts of resistance as counterproductive because they don't lead to immediate victory and are disruptive is loser mentality. Of course no individual act will stop the genocide. But the Houthi blockade hurts Israel economically, and puts pressure on them and their Western backers to end the genocide. It won't stop the genocide, but no individual act will.

Your predictions about how the Houthi attacks would mean nothing, and that the US would just bomb them into submission haven't panned out so far. In fact the US looks weaker than ever.

I hope you will continue to be wrong.

By the way, "try and claim legitimacy through violence" is a hilarious way to describe "doing a thing that their population wants them to do, in order to become popular".

# ? Feb 26, 2024 23:04

adebisi lives: Nov 11, 2009

Anyone remember this happening before the Houthis targeted red sea shipping?

https://abc7chicago.com/us-navy-destroyer-red-sea-houthis-yemen/13940798/

I haven't really seen it discussed, but I'd argue that the US military's decision shoot down these munitions and protect Israel's genocide early in the conflict may have shaped the Houthi's response. If they weren't being allowed to attack Israel directly, they could have decided to take a different approach and hit targets in a closer range that would be harder to protect. This is admittedly hypothetical but it really bothers me that the US decided to butt in here and shoot down those missiles and drones.

# ? Feb 27, 2024 15:01

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

IIRC, the Saudis shot down a number of missiles as well. In any case, i somehow doubt a number of missiles landing inaccurately in Israel was going to make the situation better.

# ? Feb 28, 2024 00:01

HouseofSuren: Feb 5, 2024; by Pragmatica

Grip it and rip it posted:

Why would they want a sunk boat back? It's cargo is spilling into the Red Sea. It's only value would be for scrap, and that would have to be towed all the way back to a friendly port to be harvested. These attacks have no chance of inspiring the kind of response that you are hoping for. That's why they're counter productive. It's a sideshow that is actively harming people in the region undertaken to try and claim legitimacy through violence.

That's a completely insane take, you're either an Israeli or someone dedicated to Israel.

No American would say violence against an oppressor isn't ok, that's how our country formed in the first place.

Want to see a terrorist of the 13 colonies?

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/washington-crosses-the-delaware

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 2, 2024 21:59

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

HouseofSuren posted:

That's a completely insane take, you're either an Israeli or someone dedicated to Israel.

No American would say violence against an oppressor isn't ok, that's how our country formed in the first place.

Want to see a terrorist of the 13 colonies?

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/washington-crosses-the-delaware

I really don't understand posts like this. The post you quoted is opinionated but almost everything in it is a statement of fact or at least an attempt to grapple with objective reality. What point in the post do you actually disagree with? Do you think the attacks aren't harming people? Or that the attacks aren't an attempt to gain legitimacy by violence? I doubt anyone posting in this thread is unwilling to criticize George Washington; but by the same token, the Houthis should not be immune to criticism for these actions even if you think they're on the right side of history.

# ? Mar 2, 2024 22:31

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# ? May 11, 2024 14:56

Esran: Apr 28, 2008

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

I really don't understand posts like this. The post you quoted is opinionated but almost everything in it is a statement of fact or at least an attempt to grapple with objective reality. What point in the post do you actually disagree with? Do you think the attacks aren't harming people? Or that the attacks aren't an attempt to gain legitimacy by violence? I doubt anyone posting in this thread is unwilling to criticize George Washington; but by the same token, the Houthis should not be immune to criticism for these actions even if you think they're on the right side of history.

It's this bit there's disagreement over.

Grip it obviously does not think the Houthis are on the right side of history. They're not saying "The Houthis are trying to stop the genocide, which is laudable, but they could do better in these ways". They're much closer to saying "The Houthis are uselessly attacking shipping, it won't work, and it hurts innocent people and the environment, in fact it's counter productive to stopping the genocide, the Houthis are bad and should stop what they're doing".

You can see how those aren't remotely the same standpoint, which should help you understand posts like that.

# ? Mar 3, 2024 11:41

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

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