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smug n stuff posted:
The short version is that previous engagements didn't call for it, and the Fremen MO is to reveal a minimum of their capabilities to outsiders unless absolutely necessary to make sure others underestimate them. Everything else was to create enough of a crisis around spice production to force the big names to Arrakis, then use the atomics, worms, and their full numbers in an overwhelming decapitation strike that nobody would see coming.
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Mar 3, 2024 17:59
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Bright Bart posted:And on a slightly different note: Paul sure does go from being a somewhat reticent heir to a duchy to wanting to be emperor of the known universe in record time. Then again he may well have also set a cinematic record for going from 'you will have my heart as long as I breathe' to 'hey, other woman, marry me please'. This is one change from the book where the book has it make much more sense. Because there, Paul explains to Chani that him marrying Irulan is purely a political move, and that Chani will be his concubine (and actual partner) instead, and Chani understands, instead of storming off like she does in the movie.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:05
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:This is one change from the book where the book has it make much more sense. Because there, Paul explains to Chani that him marrying Irulan is purely a political move, and that Chani will be his concubine (and actual partner) instead, and Chani understands, instead of storming off like she does in the movie.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:11
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Me watchin Paul ride the mighty sand worm
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Mar 3, 2024 18:11
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Vegetable posted:Why does it make more sense for a woman to accept being a concubine? The whole movie Chani’s depicted as a straight-talking, honest-to-a-fault kind of person. It’s entirely consistent with this depiction that she’s kinda mad, at least initially, at being told Paul will marry another woman. Fremen have had around 5000 years on a harsh as gently caress planet and are pragmatic as all get out. They do not cry as it wastes moisture and their highest compliment is "Your plan worked".
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Mar 3, 2024 18:27
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Monica Bellucci posted:Fremen have had around 5000 years on a harsh as gently caress planet and are pragmatic as all get out. They do not cry as it wastes moisture and their highest compliment is "Your plan worked".
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Mar 3, 2024 18:31
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I'm sure some scifi or fantasy has had concubine be the overall better deal that every noble lady dreams of. More freedom, fewer royal duties. Can leave if he mistreats her. Fewer expectations to jump on the funeral pyre after husband's death. Less likely to suffer own death during childbirth pushing out heir after heir. If she does have his children they won't be killed by their siblings or even own dad as possible contenders, instead living a privelleged life as royal bastards.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:38
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smug n stuff posted:
I actually really liked and felt it was both realistic and well built-up to pay off how totally unprepared the Emperor and the Harkonnens are for a Fremen frontal assault. It could have been explained better in dialogue again, but when Feyd-Rautha destroys Sietch Tabr the Harkonnens think that they've destroyed the Fremen because their understanding of the Fremen is extremely poor. This logic is actively undermined in the movie because the Harkonnens and Emperor somehow know about the Fremen in the southern desert because apparently the screenwriter forgot that the Baron's lines in the first movie establish there are no satellites above Arrakis. (Because the Guild won't allow them because the Guild is double-dipping on everyone else by paying Fremen and spice smugglers to go beyond their already huge official spice allocation.) So anyway it's set up better in the book BUT ANYWAY, they are convinced (although the movie ruins the set-up) that they have wiped out the few hundred thousand Fremen on Arrakis, when in fact there are millions and they have nuclear weapons and even aircraft. So when the Emperor shows up he deploys his whole army in the Arrakeen basin set up as if there are no threats within a hundred miles. They're camped in the open with all their gear and spaceships sitting around. They expect to have so total superiority in power projection and firepower that they don't care that they've deployed at the bottom of a depression with limited intel on what's around them. This is why people compare it to Dien Bien Phu. The Fremen can practically walk right in, because it turns out the Emperor doesn't have fire superiority or the advantage in power projection; the Fremen have nuclear missiles and sand worms. And the Fremen do walk in and knock over the Sardaukar army, because they're helpless camped in the middle of a bowl with nuclear artillery and shock troops attacking them on all sides. So I thought that was a good payoff of the foolishness and arrogance of the foreigners set up in the FIRST film, but which is in fact undercut in dialogue in the second film.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:53
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It's also in light of the relationship between Paul's own parents. Jessica may not have been Duchess Atreides, but she was as good as. And nobody ever so much as looked sideways at Paul over that. Chani should know going in that something like this is on the table even if she's not thrilled by it. Jessica's line at the end of the book about how, "History will call us wives," is an assurance for the reader as much as Chani, to point out that Paul isn't going to be loving around on her.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:55
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https://screenrant.com/dune-2-scenes-cut-tim-blake-nelson-response/
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Mar 3, 2024 19:10
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I know Denis would never do it but I'd be really interested in LOTR style extended editions once the trilogy is done to see this stuff.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:13
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I’m good with the change to Chani’s reaction, because I feel like it really effectively dramatises and personalises how Paul has opted for supreme power at the expense of personal contentment and being a good person. I just wish, as some others have said, that the steps leading up to that final choice were less muddled and rushed through. I also wish the movie was a little stronger on the idea that the “holy war” is outside of Paul’s control, and it’s the price he has to pay for his victory. To me, one of the most compelling ideas of the book is this tension between a manufactured messiah as a tool of social control, and that messiah as a helpless instrument of social energies. at the end of the day, he can point the Fremen at his personal enemies, but he also has to fulfil the prophecies and requirements of his role, including announcing “It’s holy war time”, whether he wants to or not. Denis might be keeping his power dry for DUNC3, but I feel like that could have been more effectively conveyed than some vague visions and then Josh Brolin on the radio at the end to the great houses who never turn up onscreen. It relegates it to exposition. I wonder if non-book-readers all grasped the significance of what happened there. Anyway, movie was an absolutely spectacular audio-visual experience, and P.S. all that being said, pragmatically and, like, ethically it’s a good thing that they didn’t actually say the word “jihad”.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:14
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This Film Is Dedicated To The Brave Fremen Fighters Of Arrakis
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Mar 3, 2024 19:19
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Monica Bellucci posted:Fremen have had around 5000 years on a harsh as gently caress planet and are pragmatic as all get out. They do not cry as it wastes moisture and their highest compliment is "Your plan worked". This is part of why I'm pissed that we lost all the terraforming plans they had. The basin being changed to some sort of religious ritual to summon the lisan al-gaib completely changes the motivations and psychology of the Fremen at large I'm also gutted that we didn't get Jamis' kids being uncomfortably okay that Paul killed their dad, that felt like a great little nugget of how the Fremen balance their really strict, ritualised behaviours with their terrifying pragmatism.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:23
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The way it ended I have a feeling he was resigned to not have a third part, even though everything points to it outside of the movie. It doesn't make any sense the way things wrapped up. Chani was supposed to have Paul's child, Alia was supposed to be born already. The Fremen were supposed to all be taught the weirding ways to become the uber ultimate warriors. The guild was supposed to ship all the other houses away so Paul can sit and contemplate for the next book. I'm not sure how he can transition to it. I mean I guess he could just hand wave all this aside or show a dreamlike montage, but man.. That would kind of be a downer.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:23
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Strom Cuzewon posted:This is part of why I'm pissed that we lost all the terraforming plans they had. The basin being changed to some sort of religious ritual to summon the lisan al-gaib completely changes the motivations and psychology of the Fremen at large I wanted Harah clowning on dudes and Paul telling Shaddam that he would gentle Salusa Secundus. Also Thufir telling Vladdy that he is a big dumb muppet.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:27
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The one character I can't come to any grips with is the Reverend Mother. Why was she siding with the bad guys like that? Also, if any of the director, writers, or actors had read the additional books or even Wikipedia entries, the scene where the Baron, Reverend Mother, and Piter meet quasi-amicably would be very difficult. The Baron raped the Reverend Mother. And in turn the Reverend Mother gave him a disease that takes away the physical attractiveness he valued so much and makes him an immobile pear who has to pretend to be glutton for food he barely likes to disguise having pissed off a witch? There's tension in the scene but none from the spoilered part.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:31
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Philthy posted:The way it ended I have a feeling he was resigned to not have a third part, even though everything points to it outside of the movie. It doesn't make any sense the way things wrapped up. Chani was supposed to have Paul's child, Alia was supposed to be born already. The Fremen were supposed to all be taught the weirding ways to become the uber ultimate warriors. The guild was supposed to ship all the other houses away so Paul can sit and contemplate for the next book. I'm not sure how he can transition to it. I mean I guess he could just hand wave all this aside or show a dreamlike montage, but man.. That would kind of be a downer. I think if we're getting a big name actress like Anya Taylor Joy showing up just for 10 seconds on screen, and having her turn up to the premiere as well, then we're getting Dune Messiah. I guess it's just a question if Villeneuve wants to make something else in between. Bright Bart posted:The one character I can't come to any grips with is the Reverend Mother. Why was she siding with the bad guys like that? Because Paul was a possibility for the Kwisatch Haderach, but became uncontrollable. Feyd-Rautha however, they knew they could control.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:33
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Bright Bart posted:The one character I can't come to any grips with is the Reverend Mother. Why was she siding with the bad guys like that? if the movie had acknowledged the prequel books in any way i would never watch it. they're worthless.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:35
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Bright Bart posted:The one character I can't come to any grips with is the Reverend Mother. Why was she siding with the bad guys like that? This did not happen in Dune or Dune Messiah. It was a retcon inserted by He Who Shall Not be Named more than 30 years later.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:36
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We don't talk about Brian, No No NO
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Mar 3, 2024 19:39
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Lobster Henry posted:“holy war” What's interesting is that in real life humanity, very local religions based on ethnic deities or ancestor worship or animistic faith are not the ones that waged this. That was the universal religions. If your religion is based on your people on your planet including its spice and sandworms, leaving everything else aside, it's an unlikely contender to start a religious war. Your relatively local deities may tell you to conquer the entirety of your planet. Or exterminate your neighbours. Maybe even go across the galaxy and take out this one abominable group of people. But to bring everyone into their fold? Historically, people who worshipped the spirits of trees in the nearby forest did not aim to convert the people living up on the mountains. Bright Bart fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 19:41
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Bright Bart posted:What's interesting is that in real life humanity, very local religions based on ethnic deities or ancestor worship or animistic faith are not the ones that waged this. That was the universal religions. The Fremen faith comes from a side branch of what became the dominant universal religion, descended mostly (but not entirely) from Islam, and the worms and spice are more blessed rather than their direct objects of worship. So they're part of that strain of universalism that you're positing drives people to push outward in conquest. It's part of why Jessica has such an easy time slotting herself in to their society as a holy woman, especially since the Bene Gesserit's manipulation of localized cultures started from a more uniform base faith that they just had to nudge along to get their desired results. As with many things, it's much more obvious in the book, and even then mostly if you read the appendix about religion in the setting.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:57
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WW weekend box office $178 million, US $81 million which is twice the first but that also had same day streaming. Safe to say we're getting Messiah.
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Mar 3, 2024 20:12
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muscles like this! posted:WW weekend box office $178 million, US $81 million which is twice the first but that also had same day streaming. Safe to say we're getting Messiah. LISAN AL GAIB!
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Mar 3, 2024 20:19
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Bright Bart posted:The one character I can't come to any grips with is the Reverend Mother. Why was she siding with the bad guys like that? Because the Bene Gesserit are the bad guys. The Bene Gesserit both facilitate the destruction of House Atreides and save Paul and Jessica by providing an escape route into the desert (this is more explicit in the book, where Lady Fenring, the one who seduces Feyd-Ratha, leaves Jessica warning notes) because the Bene Gesserit want the Atreides bloodline, but they don't want the wild card of Atreides power and independence. They plan to breed Paul with Feyd-Ratha's daughter to get their Kwisatz-Haderach, or possibly Feyd with Alia (or Jessica!). The Bene Gesserit want a tame Kwizatz-Haderach on a leash that they can data-mine for total human genetic memory and prophetic knowledge and install as a puppet-emperor; they don't understand that a tame KH is a contradiction in terms, and that the KH must, by his very nature, be a whirlwind that shakes the galaxy.
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Mar 3, 2024 20:19
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Movie owned. Tried to get tickets last night to see it again today, and every screening was sold out except for the lovely seats at the extreme edge against the wall. We're gonna get a third film.
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Mar 3, 2024 20:45
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i saw the first one the first weekend and hardly anyone was in there. i waited last minute to get a ticket for 2 and i ran into the same situation. completely packed. gonna have to wait til next weekend.
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Mar 3, 2024 21:06
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There's only one 70mm theater in Chicago showing Dune 2 and there's no reserved seating. 20 minutes before the show there's a line down the block so yeah I think it's doing well.
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Mar 3, 2024 21:16
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if anyone has AMC A List, i wound up getting a ticket to a 70mm imax screening yesterday morning like 30 min before the showing bc someone else had canceled their ticket. it's worth checking the seating for a sold out showing leading up to the time of the showing.
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Mar 3, 2024 21:33
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Usually when movies change somebody's character it's to get rid of their agency and interests in favor of Big Protagonist Energy but Dune 2 instead changed Chani to have more agency and interests independent of Big Protagonist and I like it. She knew what she was about - freeing the Fremen from outside oppression. And when Paul switched from hurting the Harkonnen and freeing the Fremen to becoming the oppressor with the Fremen as enforcers she just left. gently caress yeah. Chani subsequently not getting dunked on in palace intrigue by a princess experienced in palace intrigues sets up new and weird things to do in Messiah and Children and Villaneuve's shown the ability to make fundamental character changes that aren't worse than the original. I'm down. Let's see Messiah. From a book fan's perspective... yeah, the movie could've used another 30-60 minutes properly setting up background politics, but it does pretty good implying that there's way more at work with the interludes at Kaitain anyway.
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Mar 3, 2024 21:41
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Bugblatter posted:That bit still exists. In the first film the Reverend Mother tells Jessica that if she’d had a daughter as asked, that daughter could have been wed to the Harkonnen heir, but Jessica thought she could bring the Kwisatch Haderach around early. In the second film we meet that heir and the Reverend Mother tells Irulan that Jessica’s rebellious act didn’t destroy their plans for the Kwisatch Haderach because they have other prospects. I don’t remember if it’s in the book but I do remember the movie also explains she bore Leto a son out of love
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Mar 3, 2024 21:51
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:This is one change from the book where the book has it make much more sense. Because there, Paul explains to Chani that him marrying Irulan is purely a political move, and that Chani will be his concubine (and actual partner) instead, and Chani understands, instead of storming off like she does in the movie. I didn't get the impression that Chani bailed on Paul just because she was mad about the marriage. Instead, she abandoned him because Paul had very obviously manipulated the Fremen towards his own imperial ambitions. Like she said somewhere in the first act, she would stay with Paul "as long as he remained himself", and at that point he clearly hadn't. She's a Fremen through and through and basically only ever cared about advancing the (non-religious) Fremen cause. She was with/into Paul when he was still trying to become part of the Fremen and aid their cause. By the time of the conclave in the south it was clear that was no longer the case. She was kinda along for the ride as long as it meant throwing off the Harkonnen, but the scene in the throne room was basically the final nail in the coffin confirming to her that Paul had fundamentally sold out the Fremen. Perestroika fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 21:52
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stev posted:I really liked how Jessica subtly used the voice for most of the movie. Like she wasn't constantly in deep, booming scary mode but her dialogue was sort of doubled whenever she was talking to any of the Fremen. Like she turned it on slightly in the background. I thought this was some kind of effect to show Alia speaking with or through Jessica. I've only seen it once though so I'll have to compare on a rewatch.
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Mar 3, 2024 22:03
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Perestroika posted:I didn't get the impression that Chani bailed on Paul just because she was mad about the marriage. Instead, she abandoned him because Paul had very obviously manipulated the Fremen towards his own imperial ambitions. Like she said somewhere in the first act, she would stay with Paul "as long as he remained himself", and at that point he clearly hadn't. That seems right, by that point he barely qualifies as a person anymore, and certainly not the boy she fell in love with. He showed her that he'd turn everything into a tool: the loyalty of the Fremen, his marriage, even his basic humanity.
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Mar 3, 2024 22:41
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Lobster Henry posted:
While Paul is in the north, he repeatedly says that going to the south will lead to billions of death - which is why he doesn’t want to do it. After the assault on the Fremen cities in the north, he still doesn’t want go south. It is only when he has an additional vision in which Jamis tells him to go south, that he relents. After Paul drinks the Water of Life and he can see the future, he explains to Jessica that there is only a narrow path on which they (Paul and his mother, the Atreides, maybe the Fremen) aren’t destroyed by their enemies, but instead destroy them. He actively chooses to go down the path of galactic Jihad in order to get revenge. He could have chosen to abandon revenge for the sake of the galaxy. That is why Chani leaves him - and she is right. As far as the movies are concerned, Paul becomes the tragic villain of the story. Lots of things (like the Guild Navigators) are left out, because they aren’t relevant for the story told. They can easily be introduced in the third movie when they become relevant.
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Mar 3, 2024 22:55
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Bright Bart posted:This sub-plot also makes little sense to me. Yueh has dealt with the Baron before, at least in the stories. He knows he's petty, cruel, and obviouuussly a double-crosser. Why trust him at all? Is this better explained in the novel? Failed Imagineer posted:https://twitter.com/halomancer1/status/1764119770591641773?t=OpnyZNE8rK2on3wmp_U2eQ&s=19
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Mar 3, 2024 23:05
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Philthy posted:The way it ended I have a feeling he was resigned to not have a third part, even though everything points to it outside of the movie. It doesn't make any sense the way things wrapped up. Chani was supposed to have Paul's child, Alia was supposed to be born already. The Fremen were supposed to all be taught the weirding ways to become the uber ultimate warriors. The guild was supposed to ship all the other houses away so Paul can sit and contemplate for the next book. I'm not sure how he can transition to it. I mean I guess he could just hand wave all this aside or show a dreamlike montage, but man.. That would kind of be a downer. If anything it's the complete opposite? Dune the novel ends in an unambiguous victory lap for our heroes and in no way prepares the runway for Dune Messiah, like a book that was never meant to have a sequel. Messiah just time skips and leaves everything in-between almost totally unexplained, it's as blunt as "twelve years have passed, Muad'dib's jihad was a terrible thing" It basically had to contradict little bits of the ending, since part of Paul's reassurances to Chani about the political marriage was that it was a necessary for restoring peace and bringing the Great Houses onto their side as allies.
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Mar 3, 2024 23:07
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Paul's abrupt change of heart is explained by the film, he drinks the spice poison which focuses his prescience. He was getting visions of his embracing the prophesy leading to a terrible war, after drinking the poison he sees clearly that that is actually the only possible future where he and Jessica manage to survive and take revenge on the Harkonnens at all. Similarly, reassuring Chani about always loving her is precisely because he knows he's about to hurt her with a necessary political marriage to Irulan.
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Mar 3, 2024 23:08
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Watching DUNC1 after seeing DUNC2 is for sure a richer experience. Some random thoughts: - One of Paul's first visions/dreams is what looks like him walking away into the desert, could well be one of the final scenes of the trilogy as it's the end of Messiah. - Paul's visions of being stabbed by Chani foreshadow that she seems to be set up to be much more of antagonist in Denis' DUNC. I approve, and Chani is way more agentic this way, excited to see how it plays out - When Paul is first tripping at the spice harvester, he mumbles "I recognised you from your footsteps, old man" to Gurney's approach, which at the time seems to be a callback to the training room scene on Caladan but now seems more like a call-forward to when Paul surprises Gurney with those words in DUNC2 - I just noticed that when DUNCan is woken up during the assault on Arrakeen, he's half dressed but still grabs two blades and a suspensor-belt, and the way he momentarily engages it to drift onto the neck of a Harkonnen jobber is very tight. Overall Idaho seems by far the most fluid in his shield-sparring, which is good characterisation. Both movies work really really well as episodes in a larger story. Messiah can't come soon enough even though I'm not expecting it til 2028 at least tbh
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Mar 3, 2024 23:22
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