USCE 2024: Macklemore Is The New Michael Moore

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE 2024: Macklemore Is The New Michael Moore

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

https://twitter.com/deanbphillips/status/1764331778506883560

NYT Nate must immediately retire, there's no way back from here

# ? Mar 3, 2024 21:57

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# ? May 12, 2024 22:16

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

B B posted:

They're literally facilitating a genocide. You don't have to pretend they're kicking puppies when Biden circumvented Congress to provide Israel with ammunition they used to turn children into mist.

As if congress would ever block aid to Israel.

# ? Mar 3, 2024 21:58

small butter: Oct 8, 2011

B B posted:

They're literally facilitating a genocide. You don't have to pretend they're kicking puppies when Biden circumvented Congress to provide Israel with ammunition they used to turn children into mist.

Source?

The vast majority of bombings and killings happened with equipment that Israel had pre-October 7. Given what happened on October 7, Israel was always going to respond in the way they did. Not sure why you don't believe him when BiBi says "No one is going to stop us. Not The Hague, not anyone."

Now, why did October 7 happen? Well, if you believe Iran:

quote:

The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) says the October 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was a retaliatory action for the assassination of Qasem Soleimani.

According to the IRGC-affiliated Fars News Agency, in a press conference held on Wednesday, Ramezan Sharif, the spokesperson for the IRGC said "The Al-Aqsa Storm was one of the retaliations of the Axis of Resistance against the Zionists for the martyrdom of Qasem Soleimani," the man behind Iran's proxy activities across the region.

Trump's policies and actions directly led to the Hamas attack, which led directly to 31k dead Palestinians. You can no doubt add ripping up the Iran nuclear treaty to this list, as well as Trump recognizing and egging on the settlements.

I'm not going to ask you who you voted for in 2016, but I hope that you're not suggesting that your fellow posters to give the failed Trump policies that led to 31k dead Palestinians another try.

# ? Mar 3, 2024 21:59

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009; Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

Killer robot posted:

As with opposing fascists themselves, it's important to argue against other people you won't convince because the argument isn't to convince them but rather the other people they would otherwise be working to convince unopposed.

I guarantee you, everyone here already has their mind made up on whether or not they're going to vote for Biden.

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Well it's a lot easier to shitpost at work, for one thing.

Fair enough, can't argue with that.

# ? Mar 3, 2024 22:08

B B: Dec 1, 2005

small butter posted:

Source?

AP posted:

The Biden administration once again bypasses Congress on an emergency weapons sale to Israel

WASHINGTON (AP) � For the second time this month the Biden administration is bypassing Congress to approve an emergency weapons sale to Israel as Israel continues to prosecute its war against Hamas in Gaza under increasing international criticism.

The State Department said Friday that Secretary of State Antony Blinken had told Congress that he had made a second emergency determination covering a $147.5 million sale for equipment, including fuses, charges and primers, that is needed to make the 155 mm shells that Israel has already purchased function.

�Given the urgency of Israel�s defensive needs, the secretary notified Congress that he had exercised his delegated authority to determine an emergency existed necessitating the immediate approval of the transfer,� the department said.

�The United States is committed to the security of Israel, and it is vital to U.S. national interests to ensure Israel is able to defend itself against the threats it faces,� it said.

The emergency determination means the purchase will bypass the congressional review requirement for foreign military sales. Such determinations are rare, but not unprecedented, when administrations see an urgent need for weapons to be delivered without waiting for lawmakers� approval.

Blinken made a similar decision on Dec. 9, to approve the sale to Israel of nearly 14,000 rounds of tank ammunition worth more than $106 million.

Both moves have come as President Joe Biden�s request for a nearly $106 billion aid package for Ukraine, Israel and other national security needs remains stalled in Congress, caught up in a debate over U.S. immigration policy and border security. Some Democratic lawmakers have spoken of making the proposed $14.3 billion in American assistance to its Mideast ally contingent on concrete steps by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu�s government to reduce civilian casualties in Gaza during the war with Hamas.

The State Department sought to counter potential criticism of the sale on human rights grounds by saying it was in constant touch with Israel to emphasize the importance of minimizing civilian casualties, which have soared since Israel began its response to the Hamas attacks in Israel on Oct. 7.

�We continue to strongly emphasize to the government of Israel that they must not only comply with international humanitarian law, but also take every feasible step to prevent harm to civilians,� it said.

�Hamas hides behind civilians and has embedded itself among the civilian population, but that does not lessen Israel�s responsibility and strategic imperative to distinguish between civilians and Hamas terrorists as it conducts its military operations,� the department said. �This type of campaign can only be won by protecting civilians.�

Bypassing Congress with emergency determinations for arms sales is an unusual step that has in the past met resistance from lawmakers, who normally have a period of time to weigh in on proposed weapons transfers and, in some cases, block them.

In May 2019, then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo made an emergency determination for an $8.1 billion sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Jordan after it became clear that the Trump administration would have trouble overcoming lawmakers� concerns about the Saudi and UAE-led war in Yemen.

Pompeo came under heavy criticism for the move, which some believed may have violated the law because many of the weapons involved had yet to be built and could not be delivered urgently. But he was cleared of any wrongdoing after an internal investigation.

At least four administrations have used the authority since 1979. President George H.W. Bush�s administration used it during the Gulf War to get arms quickly to Saudi Arabia.

https://apnews.com/article/us-israel-gaza-arms-hamas-bypass-congress-1dc77f20aac4a797df6a2338b677da4f

Al Jazeera posted:

US to send weapons to Israel amid invasion threat in Gaza�s Rafah: Report

Planned delivery of bombs and other munitions comes as President Biden pushes for truce in Israel�s war on Gaza.

The United States is preparing to send more bombs and other weapons to Israel even as it pushes for a ceasefire in the war on Gaza and has said it opposes Tel Aviv�s plans for a ground invasion in southern Rafah where more than half the enclave�s displaced population is trapped.

The proposed arms delivery includes about a thousand each of MK-82 500-pound (227kg) bombs and KMU-572 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs) that turn unguided munitions into precision-guided bombs, The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday, citing unnamed US officials.

The report cited an assessment of the proposed arms transfer drafted by the US embassy in Jerusalem as saying the Israeli government has requested �rapid acquisition of these items for the defence of Israel against continued and emerging regional threats�.

The assessment also dismisses potential human rights concerns, saying �Israel takes effective action to prevent gross violations of human rights and to hold security forces responsible that violate those rights�.

The administration of US President Joe Biden has so far twice bypassed Congress to urgently send bombs and other munitions to Israel amid the war that has killed more than 28,000 Palestinians, mostly children and women, and left tens of thousands more injured or missing.

According to the WSJ, the US has provided roughly 21,000 precision-guided munitions to Israel since the start of the war last October. It said the remaining weapons are enough to sustain 19 weeks of bombing Gaza, but that would shrink to days if Israel also launches a full assault on Lebanon, where it has been engaged in border fighting with Hezbollah.

On Friday, Biden said he has repeatedly told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu there �has to be a temporary ceasefire� in Gaza during �extensive� conversations this week.

In the face of widespread international condemnation, Israel has insisted it will soon launch a ground invasion of Rafah, the southernmost city in the Gaza Strip that borders Egypt. It is where an estimated 1.4 million of the enclave�s 2.3 million population has been forcibly displaced in Israeli attacks across Gaza in the four-month conflict.

While the Biden administration maintains that an Israeli incursion into the densely packed city would be a �disaster�, it has said that such an operation would not result in tangible consequences, such as a freeze in US weapons transfers.

Biden said he cautioned Netanyahu against moving forward with a military operation into Rafah without a �credible and executable plan� to protect Palestinians sheltering there.

�I anticipate, I�m hoping, that the Israelis will not make any massive land invasion [of Rafah] in the meantime. So, my expectation, that�s not gonna happen,� Biden said.

Reporting from Washington, DC, Al Jazeera�s Kimberly Halkett said it was �unclear� if Netanyahu was listening Biden.

�Historically he has not, especially when it comes to the US cautioning about how to conduct the Israeli military campaign,� Halkett said.

Washington, some of Israel�s other allies, in addition to the United Nations and a slew of rights groups, have said an assault on Rafah given the dire humanitarian situation suffered by Palestinians in Gaza would prove catastrophic.

Netanyahu has ordered the military to draw up plans that would evacuate civilians, but top UN officials have said there is no feasible way of moving people from the area and that there is no safe place left in Gaza.

Israeli defence minister Yoav Gallant said the country is �thoroughly planning� its ground invasion of Rafah, and Netanyahu promised early on Friday to reject �international dictates� on a long-term resolution of Israel�s conflict with the Palestinians.

https://aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/17/us-to-send-weapons-to-israel-amid-invasion-threat-in-gazas-rafah-report

# ? Mar 3, 2024 22:12

Mooseontheloose: May 13, 2003

I am probably going to eat a probe for this but it feels like the people who were never going to vote for the Democrats and Joe Biden never want to acknowledge anything good a Democratic President does because that would mean having to acknowledge that progress can be made under the Democratic Party. All one has to do is look at BIF or the IRA and see that it's like 70% of the Green New Deal. Or the fact that they are doing loan forgiveness, or insulin price cost reductions, or having the government negotiate certain drug prices via Medicare and Medicaid. I am not saying that any of this means that is was enough or is a panacea but it's progress.

I agree the American government should stop providing lethal aid to Israel but it also denies the agency of the Israeli government and so we have the thing happening. People who never had intentions to vote for Biden or the Democrats coming in here saying this it's the fault of the Democrats. It comes across as the people who vote Libertarian because they don't want to be seen supporting mainstream politics because they are just so much smarter than all of us.

I am not saying you have to vote for the Democratic party, do what you want but it's tiring to argue with people who have no intention to see what Biden did domestically in two years go, nah that doesn't count because I don't feel it counts.

# ? Mar 3, 2024 22:23

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

small butter posted:

Source?

The vast majority of bombings and killings happened with equipment that Israel had pre-October 7. Given what happened on October 7, Israel was always going to respond in the way they did. Not sure why you don't believe him when BiBi says "No one is going to stop us. Not The Hague, not anyone."

Now, why did October 7 happen? Well, if you believe Iran:

Trump's policies and actions directly led to the Hamas attack, which led directly to 31k dead Palestinians. You can no doubt add ripping up the Iran nuclear treaty to this list, as well as Trump recognizing and egging on the settlements.

I'm not going to ask you who you voted for in 2016, but I hope that you're not suggesting that your fellow posters to give the failed Trump policies that led to 31k dead Palestinians another try.

lmao

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 3, 2024 22:48

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

I think we've had enough "who should you vote for" chat here for today.

# ? Mar 3, 2024 22:57

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

Google Jeb Bush posted:

I think we've had enough "who should you vote for" chat here for today.

I vote for this guy

# ? Mar 3, 2024 23:08

Shooting Blanks: Jun 6, 2007; Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade

Staluigi posted:

I vote for this guy

I don't think Jeb Bush is running for anything this year.

# ? Mar 3, 2024 23:10

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001

Shooting Blanks posted:

I don't think Jeb Bush is running for anything this year.

If only we'd clapped...

# ? Mar 3, 2024 23:16

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Google Jeb Bush posted:

I think we've had enough "who should you vote for" chat here for today.

I vote for Cohen over here.

# ? Mar 3, 2024 23:16

small butter: Oct 8, 2011

B B posted:

According to the WSJ, the US has provided roughly 21,000 precision-guided munitions to Israel since the start of the war last October. It said the remaining weapons are enough to sustain 19 weeks of bombing Gaza, but that would shrink to days if Israel also launches a full assault on Lebanon, where it has been engaged in border fighting with Hezbollah.

You've made my point.

The article that you posted talked about the Biden admin bypassing Congress twice to send military aid to Israel. The first package, from the beginning of December, provided tank shells to Israel. The second package from the end of December was much more robust, with the 21,000 precision-guided munitions that you highlighted. By the end of December, before a single post-October 7 precision-guided munition made its way to Israel, 22k Palestinians had already died, hence my original point:

small butter posted:

The vast majority of bombings and killings happened with equipment that Israel had pre-October 7.

So to get back to my question to you: are you suggesting that we continue Trump's failed policies that led to all of the destruction that you're seeing now?

# ? Mar 3, 2024 23:29

B B: Dec 1, 2005

small butter posted:

You've made my point.

The article that you posted talked about the Biden admin bypassing Congress twice to send military aid to Israel. The first package, from the beginning of December, provided tank shells to Israel. The second package from the end of December was much more robust, with the 21,000 precision-guided munitions that you highlighted. By the end of December, before a single post-October 7 precision-guided munition made its way to Israel, 22k Palestinians had already died, hence my original point:

So to get back to my question to you: are you suggesting that we continue Trump's failed policies that led to all of the destruction that you're seeing now?

Here's an article from December 2nd, which indicates that Israel had received much more than "tank shells" from the U.S. by the time that 15,000 Gazans were dead:

Al Jazeera posted:

US sends �bunker buster� bombs to Israel for war on Gaza, report says

Apart from ground-penetrating munitions, US has also given Israel several other types of bombs and artillery shells.

The United States has given so-called �bunker buster� bombs and an array of other munitions to Israel for its war on Gaza, according to a report by The Wall Street Journal.

Washington has transferred 100 BLU-109 bombs to Israel that are meant to penetrate hardened structures before exploding, the report said, citing unnamed US officials.

The bomb carries a warhead weighing more than 900 kilogrammes (19,800 pounds) and has previously been used by the US in conflicts including the war in Afghanistan.[

It is not the only type of ammunition provided by the US to Israel for the war on the besieged enclave, which has so far killed more than 15,000 Palestinians, including at least 6,150 children. The October 7 Hamas attack on Israel that started the war killed 1,200 people.

Unlike the regular arms updates by the US about the war in Ukraine, the Pentagon has remained mostly silent on its level of weapons support for Israel amid international condemnation of Israeli military operations in Gaza.

The WSJ report said a surge of US arms to Israel since the start of the war has included 15,000 bombs and 57,000 155mm artillery shells that have primarily been carried on C-17 military cargo planes.

Washington has also sent more than 5,000 unguided Mk82 bombs, more than 5,400 Mk84 bombs, about 1,000 GBU-39 small-diameter bombs, and approximately 3,000 JDAMs, a guidance kit that turns unguided bombs into precision-guided munitions, it said.

This is on top of the billions of dollars Israel receives each year in US financial support for its military operations.

According to the WSJ, large bombs made by the US have been used in some of the deadliest Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip, including a strike that levelled an apartment block in the Jabalia refugee camp, killing more than 100 people. Israel said the attack was justified as it killed a Hamas leader.

Israel�s intense aerial bombing of Gaza restarted shortly after the end of a weeklong truce on Friday that saw dozens of captives held in Gaza exchanged for Palestinians held in Israeli prisons. Many dozens of Palestinians have already been killed less than 24 hours after the strikes resumed.

The Israeli army, which has repeatedly been telling Palestinians to evacuate northern Gaza amid its ground operations, said on Saturday that parts of southern Gaza are also a battle zone now. People on the ground and rights groups have repeatedly said there is no safe place in Gaza.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/2/us-gives-bunker-buster-bombs-to-israel-for-war-on-gaza-report

Since this article was published, at least another 15,000 Palestinians have died.

Split hairs all you want, but Biden has absolutely played an active role in the ongoing genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza. He's provided material support, directed his administration to veto three separate ceasefire resolutions at the U.N., personally denied the number of Gazans that have died, refused to place any kind of conditions on U.S. support for Israel, and continues to allow his administration to gaslight the public about the ethnic cleansing.

In short: my original point that Joe Biden is helping to facilitate a genocide is true.

B B fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 00:05

FistEnergy: Nov 3, 2000; DAY CREW: WORKING HARD; Fun Shoe

B B posted:

In short: my original point that Joe Biden is helping to facilitate a genocide is true.

Oh absolutely, of course. It's plainly obvious; Biden is president now, when America is sending billions and giving Israeli genocide significant support. Saying "Trump's failed policies that led to all of the destruction that you're seeing now" is giving the game away and trying to pin America's current shameful conduct on the former president. The President behind the desk gets the blame and the credit under his watch, that's just how this American system works. But beyond that, Biden is taking an active role in supporting, funding, and defending genocide and it goes without saying that a significant portion of the buck stops with him.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 01:06

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019; Can't post for 4 hours!

small butter posted:

Now, why did October 7 happen? Well, if you believe Iran:

FWIW, the President believes October 7 happened because of something he was planning to do. I suspect he doesn't believe Iran's explanation (will ask at our next 1-on-1):
Remarks by President Biden at the U.S. Conference of Mayors Winter Meeting | The White House

www.whitehouse.gov - Fri, 19 Jan 2024 posted:

If we walk away � if we walk away and Russia is able to sustain their onslaught and bring down Ukraine, what do you think is going to happen in the Balkan countries?� What do you think is going to happen from Poland to Hungary and Orb�n?� I mean, seriously, think about it.� It changes the dynamic, magnifi- �

I won�t get on this � I�m not supposed to be talking about this, but same thing with regard to Israel.� Israel has to � has to taper this off.� There�s ways to put this together.� We�re in a position where we�re unable to � I think one of the reasons the Houthi � I can�t prove this � one of the reasons the � the � Hamas did what they did was I was about to work out a deal with Saudi Arabia, wanting to normalize relations.� I mean, fully normalize relations with Israel and bring along six other Arab nations to change the dynamic in the region.
�

He's expressed this more than once; this is just one of the times.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 01:44

Morrow: Oct 31, 2010

There's been a lot of chatter about a full normalization of relations between Israel and the holdouts (Saudi Arabia). It's been part of many ceasefire proposals and the fear of it probably is part of why Hamas was driven to act as aggressively as they did.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 01:57

AsInHowe: Jan 11, 2007; red winged angel

Main Paineframe posted:

Also, judging from how Biden's presidency has gone, a measure like that would result in basically no gains in approval or popularity. Because Biden did (or at least attempted) a whole bunch of other radical stuff that pushed the limits of his presidential powers in order to help a ton of people, and barely anybody at all gives a flying gently caress about those unprecedented progressive accomplishments, no matter how many people were helped by them! For all the amazing poo poo Biden did, poo poo that I thought no Democratic president would ever dare to do, barely anyone appreciates it. At some point, we need to acknowledge that maybe leftist policy isn't the key to electoral success after all, instead of explaining away every failed progressive politician as being the progressive's fault for not being progressive enough.

This, this, this all day.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 4, 2024 02:40

small butter: Oct 8, 2011

B B posted:

Here's an article from December 2nd, which indicates that Israel had received much more than "tank shells" from the U.S. by the time that 15,000 Gazans were dead:

Thanks for that - the original article stated otherwise.

I stand by my original point, though - Israel maintains a large stockpile of weapons, including nukes, that was enough to level Gaza without any additional aid, which is a process that started before any new shells were shipped, opened, and fired. Edit: had Israel expended its entire stockpile to level Gaza, America and even Europe would have rushed into to arm Israel if it looked like they wouldn't have enough weapons to defend themselves against a counterattack from Hamas, Hezbollah, or others.

B B posted:

Split hairs all you want, but Biden has absolutely played an active role in the ongoing genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza. He's provided material support, directed his administration to veto three separate ceasefire resolutions at the U.N., personally denied the number of Gazans that have died, refused to place any kind of conditions on U.S. support for Israel, and continues to allow his administration to gaslight the public about the ethnic cleansing.

In short: my original point that Joe Biden is helping to facilitate a genocide is true.

My quibble isn't about whether or not Biden is facilitating a genocide. Israel would have always done what it did as a response to October 7, with America's help or not. But the sequence of events that led to October 7 are due to Trump's actions and policies, or at the very least, likely played a major role in it. I responded to you after you responded to Main Paineframe who said:

Main Paineframe posted:

If acknowledging the actual real-life good things Democrats do conflicts with your desire to see them as puppy-kicking villains, it sounds like the problem there might be with you rather than with the Dems.

You obviously don't want to acknowledge the good that Democrats have done. The corollary to this is that you're also not acknowledging that the reason why we're even having a conversation about Palestinian genocide is due to Republican policies. Of course, this gets into electoralism, and you often pop in to scream "genocide!" at people who encourage voting against the person who set all of these events into motion in the first place.

FistEnergy posted:

Oh absolutely, of course. It's plainly obvious; Biden is president now, when America is sending billions and giving Israeli genocide significant support. Saying "Trump's failed policies that led to all of the destruction that you're seeing now" is giving the game away and trying to pin America's current shameful conduct on the former president. The President behind the desk gets the blame and the credit under his watch, that's just how this American system works. But beyond that, Biden is taking an active role in supporting, funding, and defending genocide and it goes without saying that a significant portion of the buck stops with him.

It's not pinning blame away from America, who as we know elected Trump in the first place. It's absolutely true that Republican, especially Trumpian, policies led to the attack, and it's absolutely true to say that had America even peaced the gently caress out of the conflict and abandoned Israel, you would have still seen the same immense destruction in Gaza. I think a lot of people haven't come to terms with how terrible the October 7 attack was and how Israel was guaranteed to respond in the way that it did. Sorry, but suggesting that Democrats are villains (compared to who?) is just accelerationist nonsense that got us here now.

mawarannahr posted:

FWIW, the President believes October 7 happened because of something he was planning to do. I suspect he doesn't believe Iran's explanation (will ask at our next 1-on-1):
Remarks by President Biden at the U.S. Conference of Mayors Winter Meeting | The White House

He's expressed this more than once; this is just one of the times.

I believe Biden when he says that "one of the reasons Hamas did what they did" was because the US was normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia (which also probably would have happened under Trump). This probably has more to do with the timing of the attack than the actual planning of the attack, which supposedly goes back years. I also believe Iran when they say that the assassination of Soleimani was a major reason as well, which, if you remember, Trump said was a response to Iran planning attacks on American troops, which was due to Trump aggravating Iran throughout his presidency including by ripping up the nuclear deal. Let's not forget everything else that was done to aggravate the Palestinians themselves - stopping aid to Palestine in 2018, recognizing the Golan Heights, moving the embassy, encouraging more settlements, proposing a terrible peace deal, etc. None of these things would have happened under Clinton and Biden is on record criticizing Trump when he assassinated Soleimani.

small butter fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 02:44

AsInHowe: Jan 11, 2007; red winged angel

blackmet posted:

Reading this entire genocide/insulin conversation reminds me why politicians really don't bother going after leftist votes.

It's a small, fickle part of the electorate with ever shifting goalposts who never has anything good to say about you and will threaten to leave you for an alcoholic abuser for forgetting to bring up the garbage bins from the sidewalk after spending your whole day cleaning the entire rest of the house.

You can't please them, ever, so why bother

Pretty much this. The calculus to gain votes isn't there.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 02:52

The Artificial Kid: Feb 22, 2002; Plibble

selec posted:

The FL riot in 2000 (known as the Brooks Brothers riot) was more successful than J6, and specifically due to the class composition and practical goals of the rioters. They were people with a specific plan, which they executed, with the institutional power and organization to carry out their goals.

J6 had no institutional backup, and no organization.

It was orchestrated in the service of a plot to disrupt election certification enough for Trump to use back channels and loyalists to install phony electors who would make him president

quote:

They didn�t have a single military leader pledged to lead his troops on behalf of Trump. They didn�t seize communications networks, they didn�t seize any armories or police stations, they didn�t have a plan to take key stakeholders hostage much less get them out of the Capitol so their value could be extracted properly as hostages, they didn�t have any assassinations or coordinated bombings of essential institutions set up.

The Commander in Chief was on their side and, as I understand it, prevented military units that should have responded from doing so. The insurrectionists planted bombs in the capitol, likely with the assistance of a member of congress.[/quote]

quote:

They had literally none of the planning, coordination and organization that any previously successful coup in history has had.

They had the commander in chief and his cronies orchestrating events on every level in a desperate bid to topple the legitimate election and create enough chaos for right wing media, MAGA state governments and MAGA reps and senators and Trump and his inner circle to create enough of an appearance of propriety to keep Trump in as president. Yes in theory the military should have prevented this. They were held back from doing so on the day, and might well have been unable to commit to a single view of the constitutional issues in the longer term given that under Trump's scheme numerous state governments were to assert that their true electors were false and that Trump's false electors should be accepted in their stead.

quote:

People who think j6 came close to �succeeding� need to read any amount of history of how actual coups work. They sound like children discussing their plans to become rock stars or MLB players, or maybe a rock star who plays MLB on the weekend.

For a fun start, check out Luttwak�s Coup d�Etat, A Practical Handbook. It�s a concise, well-researched analysis that�s also breezy and readable. Author is a complete psycho fascist living in Argentina longing for the revanche, but grown ups can enjoy material from problematic artists.

I have read Luttwak and I waited throughout January 6 to see if America's systems of norms would stand against the most concerted and dangerous attack it has faced in a century and a half. The Brooks Brothers riot sought to game the system, but it acknowledged the supremacy of the system. Trump seeks to sweep the system away because he acknowledges nothing beyond himself.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 03:09

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

It's shocking that Israel has managed to kill more civilians in just the first few months than the argentine junta managed in its nearly a decade with US support in its Dirty War. I don't think that anything to do with Israel is significantly changing the political calculus of American elections anytime soon and it's hard to overstate how little of a gently caress Americans give about dead Muslims, but it should be a big political issue because a gently caress of a lot of civilians are dying every day and there is zero question whatsoever that American support (in all of its many forms) is contributing directly to that slaughter.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 03:14

The Artificial Kid: Feb 22, 2002; Plibble

dadrips posted:

Legality is just a question of will...

I've been debating with you under a misapprehension. I thought we were both against fascism, but you're actually pro-fascist. You might want to read some books about it and find a fascist social club to join, because you're just kidding yourself otherwise.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 4, 2024 03:21

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009; Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

Main Paineframe posted:

Also, judging from how Biden's presidency has gone, a measure like that would result in basically no gains in approval or popularity. Because Biden did (or at least attempted) a whole bunch of other radical stuff that pushed the limits of his presidential powers in order to help a ton of people, and barely anybody at all gives a flying gently caress about those unprecedented progressive accomplishments, no matter how many people were helped by them!

In what way have Biden's policies/initiatives/expansions of presidential powers been "radical," exactly? Can you be specific?

e:

quote:

Biden is the most progressive president in our parents' lifetimes,

In terms of domestic policy, I think LBJ would fit that description far more (obviously his foreign policy was anything but progressive, sadly). Pushing things like Medicare and the Civil Rights Act through Congress while at the head of a deeply divided party strike me as radical accomplishments. I don't see how Biden's accomplishments measure up.

Majorian fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 03:29

James Garfield: May 5, 2012; Am I a manipulative abuser in real life, or do I just roleplay one on the Internet for fun? You decide!

dadrips posted:

I said trump is the *only* republican I can see doing this, and only because he's suggestible enough that a Bannon-type could plant the notion that doing so would make him super popular. Which it honestly might well do

Trump didn't do covid relief because a Bannon type convinced him it would win, he put Mnuchin (who Trump appointed because he's rich, and may not have actually been a Republican) in charge and didn't involve himself much.

I don't think a Trump who wins in 2024 is going to appoint random rich guys to his cabinet just because they're rich again.

James Garfield fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 04:12

Professor Beetus: Apr 12, 2007; They can fight us
But they'll never Beetus

It was also an extraordinary circumstance that hadn't been seen for roughly 100 years and required a drastic response, and Republicans still fought to make the government response shittier. That all that happened was in spite of Trump being in office, not because of it. A hypothetical response under President Clinton would probably have been just as helpful, if not more so.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 04:18

Nissin Cup Nudist: Sep 3, 2011; Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land

Majorian posted:

In what way have Biden's policies/initiatives/expansions of presidential powers been "radical," exactly? Can you be specific?

e:

In terms of domestic policy, I think LBJ would fit that description far more (obviously his foreign policy was anything but progressive, sadly). Pushing things like Medicare and the Civil Rights Act through Congress while at the head of a deeply divided party strike me as radical accomplishments. I don't see how Biden's accomplishments measure up.

I know this forum is all olds now, but its entirely possible for someone parents to have been born past LBJ

# ? Mar 4, 2024 04:30

Angry_Ed: Mar 30, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Professor Beetus posted:

It was also an extraordinary circumstance that hadn't been seen for roughly 100 years and required a drastic response, and Republicans still fought to make the government response shittier. That all that happened was in spite of Trump being in office, not because of it. A hypothetical response under President Clinton would probably have been just as helpful, if not more so.

Hypothetical President Clinton wouldn't have (or most likely wouldn't have) dismantled/fired the entire pandemic response team whose job it was to research and be ready for the next big pandemic. Something that Donald Trump did and is why, among other reasons, he bears some of the responsibility of COVID-19 becoming the pandemic it became.

Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 04:32

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009; Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

I know this forum is all olds now, but its entirely possible for someone parents to have been born past LBJ

Of course it is, but MPF said "Biden is the most progressive president in our parents' lifetimes," and I'm pretty sure MPF is around my age. I'm also pretty sure most (not all) of us have parents who were born before 1969.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 04:37

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

Professor Beetus posted:

It was also an extraordinary circumstance that hadn't been seen for roughly 100 years and required a drastic response, and Republicans still fought to make the government response shittier. That all that happened was in spite of Trump being in office, not because of it. A hypothetical response under President Clinton would probably have been just as helpful, if not more so.

It also keeps getting buried how much the CARES act was a business handout with individual benefits added on for some populist cred (spearheaded by pushes from Congressional Democrats,) while ARPA actually focused on individual benefits and shoring up state and local governments.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 04:43

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Majorian posted:

In what way have Biden's policies/initiatives/expansions of presidential powers been "radical," exactly? Can you be specific?

e:

In terms of domestic policy, I think LBJ would fit that description far more (obviously his foreign policy was anything but progressive, sadly). Pushing things like Medicare and the Civil Rights Act through Congress while at the head of a deeply divided party strike me as radical accomplishments. I don't see how Biden's accomplishments measure up.

Attempting to extend the eviction moratorium indefinitely and attempting to eliminate student loans with the stroke of a pen both seem pretty radical even by 1960s standards. Free COVID vaccines and tests were quite something. The child tax credit expansion was a massive blow against child poverty. Unprecedented investments in environmental policy. Actions to protect gay rights and abortion. And while it's not an exercise of presidential power per se, joining a union picket line is certainly pretty radical for a president!

Trying to focus the conversation specifically on what the president managed to push through Congress doesn't really make sense. It's an apples-and-watermelons comparison. While LBJ's Dems were certainly more divided than the current Dems, LBJ could afford to tolerate quite a bit of division, because Democrats had outright supermajorities in both the House and the Senate during LBJ's presidency! And not the half-assed milquetoast 60-seat "supermajorities" we talk about these days - LBJ started off the 89th Congress with Dems holding 68 Senate seats and 67% of House seats. Expecting someone with a 50/50 Senate to measure up to that is downright ridiculous.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 06:53

Koos Group: Mar 6, 2013; Can't post for 4 hours!

Given the thread's trajectory in the last 24 hours, I should remind everyone that D&D's purpose is interesting debate and discussion. We're meant to be a cut above the average internet comment section in terms of how likely we are to learn something. This isn't a place where an algorithm shows you what most annoys or outrages you again and again for maximum engagement. So I would ask, once again, that everyone refrain from rehashing arguments that most people reading this are sophisticated enough to be sick of, unless you have something truly novel or falsifiable to say. Knowing what would qualify as a tiresome argument can be accomplished by lurking, or as a rule of thumb, avoiding repeating talking points you heard from a pundit or social media.

Related, I do intend to create an election 2024 thread where in-depth discussion of President Biden and former President Trump can occur for those who are interested, as well as discussion about campaigning, the likely outcomes of the races, etc.

I'm going to have a feedback thread next weekend, so if you have any input on how the Election 2024 thread ought to be, or this thread, please wait until then or PM me.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 07:11

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Main Paineframe posted:

And it's not about what I find distasteful, it's about what the American people as a whole find distasteful. If affordable insulin was overwhelmingly popular and if the American populace placed a high political importance on it, then Biden would be more likely to be able to enforce something like that despite lacking the constitutional authority...but he wouldn't need to ignore the Constitution to do so, because such a powerful political movement would certainly affect Congress as well, voting out members who oppose affordable insulin while voting in members who support affordable insulin. Unfortunately, we have some evidence that affordable insulin doesn't have that kind of public support, because the Republicans took the House in 2022 despite voting against affordable insulin for everyone a few months before. Clearly affordable insulin isn't that much of a vote-getter after all!

While the Pickthall rendition of Surah Ar-Rad is more poetic:

Quran 13:10-11 posted:

It is the same [to Him] concerning you whether one conceals [his] speech or one publicizes it and whether one is hidden by night or conspicuous [among others] by day. For him are angels ranged before him and behind him, who guard him by Allah's command. Lo! Allah changeth not the condition of a folk until they (first) change that which is in their hearts; and if Allah willeth misfortune for a folk there is none that can repel it, nor have they a defender beside Him.

I think the Muhammad Asad (n�e Leopold Weiss, Jewish revert and first citizen of Pakistan) translation offers a more widespread call to action:

The Message of the Quran, 13:10-11 posted:

It is all alike [to Him] whether any of you conceals his thought or brings it into the open, and whether he seeks to hide [his evil deeds] under the cover of night or walks [boldly] in the light of day, [thinking that] he has hosts of helpers - both such as can be perceived by him and such as are hidden from him - that could preserve him from whatever God may have willed.

Verily, God does not change men's condition unless they change their inner selves; and when God wills people to suffer evil [in consequence of their own evil deeds], there is none who could avert it: for they have none who could protect them from Him.

His footnote, explaining why he takes a more materialist take - note that in his translation of the ayah, he doesn't assume that "things perceived and hidden" should automatically mean something supernatural:

quote:

Lit., "from between his hands and from behind him". As in 2:255, the expression "between his hands" denotes "something that is perceivable by him" or "evident to him", while that which is "behind him" is a metonym for something "beyond his ken" or "hidden from him". See also next note.

quote:

However, this interpretation has by no means the support of all the commentators. Some of the earliest ones assume that the term mu'aqqibat refers to all manner of worldly forces or concepts on which man so often relies in the mistaken belief that they might help him to achieve his aims independently of God's will: and this is the meaning given to this elliptic passage by the famous commentator Abu Muslim al-Isfahani, as quoted by Razi. Explaining verse 10 and the first part of verse 11, he says:

"All alike are, in God's knowledge, deeds done secretly or openly, as well as he who hides in the darkness of night and he who walks [boldly] in the light of day... : for he that resorts to the [cover of] night can never elude God's will (amr), just as he [cannot] that walks in the light of day, surrounded by hosts of helpers (mu'aqqibat)- that is, guards and aids - meant to protect him: [for] those guards of his cannot save him from [the will of] God." It is on this convincing interpretation that I have based my rendering. The worldly "guards and aids" on which a sinner relies may be tangible (like wealth, progeny, etc.) or intangible (like personal power, high social standing, or the belief in one's "luck"): and this explains the phrase "both such as can be perceived by him and such as are hidden from him"

Of course, the implication of this regarding Insulin is obvious: If we disregard this because it doesn't get votes (we don't change the conditions of people's hearts), then we will not get it. If we want change for our people, we need to change their hearts to support it. "Will this get votes?" is immaterial, because the right thing will never "get votes" until people support it. "Will being for insulin / student loans / against genocide get me votes? If not, I should put them aside." is thinking that will ensure those things never get the votes in the first place. And regardless, the people that oppose these things out of greed will have their punishment from God, and their wealth will not protect them on the day of judgment.

Mormon Star Wars fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 07:43

Scags McDouglas: Sep 9, 2012

Koos Group posted:

Given the thread's trajectory in the last 24 hours, I should remind everyone that D&D's purpose is interesting debate and discussion. We're meant to be a cut above the average internet comment section in terms of how likely we are to learn something. This isn't a place where an algorithm shows you what most annoys or outrages you again and again for maximum engagement. So I would ask, once again, that everyone refrain from rehashing arguments that most people reading this are sophisticated enough to be sick of, unless you have something truly novel or falsifiable to say. Knowing what would qualify as a tiresome argument can be accomplished by lurking, or as a rule of thumb, avoiding repeating talking points you heard from a pundit or social media.

Related, I do intend to create an election 2024 thread where in-depth discussion of President Biden and former President Trump can occur for those who are interested, as well as discussion about campaigning, the likely outcomes of the races, etc.

I'm going to have a feedback thread next weekend, so if you have any input on how the Election 2024 thread ought to be, or this thread, please wait until then or PM me.

I'll risk a probe by saying you alright, dog. Effort needs to be matched based on whether the poster is immersed in Gibbis, this thread, or CSPAM

# ? Mar 4, 2024 08:02

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Ultra Carp

Scags McDouglas posted:

I'll risk a probe by saying you alright, dog. Effort needs to be matched based on whether the poster is immersed in Gibbis, this thread, or CSPAM

I mean ultimately the problem there is that you would need to have someone monitoring the thread constantly and consistently to actually measure said effort and enforce that rule, which to date has driven nearly all those who have tried into incurable madness.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 08:35

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

Main Paineframe posted:

Attempting to extend the eviction moratorium indefinitely and attempting to eliminate student loans with the stroke of a pen both seem pretty radical even by 1960s standards. Free COVID vaccines and tests were quite something. The child tax credit expansion was a massive blow against child poverty. Unprecedented investments in environmental policy. Actions to protect gay rights and abortion. And while it's not an exercise of presidential power per se, joining a union picket line is certainly pretty radical for a president!

Trying to focus the conversation specifically on what the president managed to push through Congress doesn't really make sense. It's an apples-and-watermelons comparison. While LBJ's Dems were certainly more divided than the current Dems, LBJ could afford to tolerate quite a bit of division, because Democrats had outright supermajorities in both the House and the Senate during LBJ's presidency! And not the half-assed milquetoast 60-seat "supermajorities" we talk about these days - LBJ started off the 89th Congress with Dems holding 68 Senate seats and 67% of House seats. Expecting someone with a 50/50 Senate to measure up to that is downright ridiculous.

Even Carter had 2/3 of the House and 61 Senate seats when he took office, and he was pretty poor at steering them. In part because even a decade into the party realignment there were plenty of outright conservative Dems, and it continued for years after. It was a faction Clinton had to appease in the 1990s and who fought a lot of his priorities. Even into Obama Blue Dogs were an important faction. Every "How can the Democrats be a real party if they allow someone like Manchin to join their caucus" rant is based either in total ignorance of history or a knowing lie because either party being as ideologically lined up as they are today is pretty near unprecedented. Which cuts both ways since while you need a smaller majority to get things done without crossover votes, crossover votes on anything controversial are a real hard get and a House/Senate split makes things even harder. Apples to watermelons is right: lots of things have changed in the last 50+ years, and someone pushing a bill through Congress can't follow a 1960s playbook any more than you can get a good job today by typing up your resume and burning some shoe leather downtown.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 09:43

volts5000: Apr 7, 2009; It's electric. Boogie woogie woogie.

"STATE'S RIGHTS! ...unless it interferes with Republicans"

https://x.com/AP/status/1764668424045621500?s=20

# ? Mar 4, 2024 16:07

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Honestly, individual states deciding who can and cannot be on the ballot seems like a nightmare.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 16:15

Fork of Unknown Origins: Oct 21, 2005; Gotta Herd On?

zoux posted:

Honestly, individual states deciding who can and cannot be on the ballot seems like a nightmare.

True but enforcement being performed after an election seems even worse. It�ll be interesting to see how exactly they explain it should work in the decision.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 16:19

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 12, 2024 22:16

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

zoux posted:

Honestly, individual states deciding who can and cannot be on the ballot seems like a nightmare.

It's a no-win situation. Democrats would have been kicked off of the ballot of every state with a GOP-controlled supreme court and legislature, probably based on some BS border control argument.

It really is going to be left up to the voting public to decide whether to accept or reject Trump, sadly.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 16:21

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