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cheetah7071 posted:i assume the difference between a secessionist rebellion and an independence war is whether or not they win :Shogun: I think it would be reasonable to make a distinction between a part of a nation (or equivalent) that has previousky been viewed by everyone, including the inhabitants, as being fully integrated, versus a colony or imperial possession that is explicitly not viewed as being an equal part of the greater entity. I'm sure there's a smoother way to word this but I'm drawing a blank.
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Mar 1, 2024 22:22
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The states were hardly viewed as fully integrated before the Civil War.
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Mar 1, 2024 22:23
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Gaius Marius posted:The states were hardly viewed as fully integrated before the Civil War. True, the association was looser back then, I should have used a different term. What I'm trying to say is that the southern states stood equally as a part of the United States alongside the northern ones. Georgia was just as much a part of the U.S as Vermont, and Virginia in 1860 had representation and standing within the American national government that was very unlike its position relative to the British government in 1770. I do believe there's a meaningful distinction to be drawn between these two examples.
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Mar 1, 2024 22:30
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I would say the secession of South America also wasn't a singular secessionist movement even if a number of them were allied for a while. Argentina and Mexico are the lnly ones that are bigger than the CSA. Brazil had a whole screwy thing for a while where it swapped places with Portugal for a little bit as the seat of the Portuguese empre before the two split up for good. I don't really know how that would qualify On top of that, there's aslo Canada, India, Australia, Kazakhstan*, and Algeria bigger than the CSA's 750,000 square miles. *although technically since Kazakhstan was the only member of the Soviet Union that voted not to secede, that might make Russia the big secessionist movement. Kylaer posted:Georgia was just as much a part of the U.S as Vermont, and Virginia in 1860 had representation and standing within the American national government that was very unlike its position relative to the British government in 1770. I would say Georgia was even more a part of the US since it was a founding member of the 13 colonies as opposed to Vermont being in a more nebulous position as a breakaway province of New York that had already taken up arms against the New Yorkers before the revolution against Britain provided a better target. SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 22:35
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I think you can draw a distinction between a war to secede from a nation that you are an equal part of, and a war of independence against an imperial power that you are not an equal part of. The line is obviously going to be fuzzy but the Southern states were equal members of the United States before the Civil War, which is markedly different from the situation from some of the other examples being brought up.
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Mar 1, 2024 22:47
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You could probably get a lot more if you did the numbers on population, since the CSA even with slaves was only 9 million people. Then it gets way more complicated if you want to do the numbers on what percentage of the population went with the separatist movement, or how much of a fraction that is of the world population at the time.
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Mar 1, 2024 22:57
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cheetah7071 posted:This is outside the thread's stated scope but this is effectively the medieval history thread as well. When the Norse arrived in Greenland, was it already inhabited? My understanding of the timeline in and around the Greenland Norse: Dorset culture comes to Greenland ca 500BCE, and go extinct somewhere between 1000CE and 1500CE. Greenland Norse come to Greenland 986CE, and go extinct sometime between 1400CE and 1500CE. Thule culture comes to Greenland starting in like 1300 and gets into southern Greenland 1500s and is realistically still alive as the modern Kalaallit culture. As far as I am aware, the Dorset get their first (among these three), and overlap chronologically with the Greenland Norse. However there is no evidence of any contact between the Dorset and Greenland Norse. The Thule come later and there is evidence of (hostile) contact between them and the Greenland Norse. The Greenland Norse then die off, which we are not 100% sure that the Thule caused the death of the Greenland Norse as the primary cause but does seem like they mad the Greenland Norse situation worse rather than better.
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Mar 2, 2024 00:08
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Hey buds. Tell me about the history of clear glassmaking.
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Mar 2, 2024 01:10
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Tulip posted:My understanding of the timeline in and around the Greenland Norse: Thanks! So it sounds like I probably heard something like "the modern Inuit people of Greenland weren't there yet when the Norse arrived" and got some wires crossed on the full story.
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Mar 2, 2024 01:12
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Yeah by wikipedia's reckoning, big island, vikings had just a wee bit closest to Europe, while the Native Americans stuck to the north coast.
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Mar 2, 2024 03:47
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Baron Porkface posted:Was the Confederate States of America the largest seccessionist territory in the time since Westphalian Nation-States? I'm pretty sure it was the bloodiest secessionist war until the Bolshevik wars. Yeah as Tesla Cola says, the bloodiest secessionist war would be the Taiping rebellion. (Likely ever, but it was also contemporaneous with the American civil war). It was basically WWI if WWI happened inside a single country. Somewhere between 5 and 10% of the population of China was killed. The whole "American Civil War was the bloodiest civil war in history" meme is a weird one but seems quite persistent.
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Mar 2, 2024 04:54
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Was the Taiping Rebellion secessionist? I was under the impression that they saw themselves as taking back China from the Manchu - I guess you could sort of claim that as an anti-imperialist succession, but if both sides saw themselves as 'China' it's not exactly the same thing.
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Mar 2, 2024 05:21
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Yeah as Tesla Cola says, the bloodiest secessionist war would be the Taiping rebellion. (Likely ever, but it was also contemporaneous with the American civil war). It was basically WWI if WWI happened inside a single country. Somewhere between 5 and 10% of the population of China was killed.
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Mar 2, 2024 05:32
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Angry Salami posted:Was the Taiping Rebellion secessionist? I was under the impression that they saw themselves as taking back China from the Manchu - I guess you could sort of claim that as an anti-imperialist succession, but if both sides saw themselves as 'China' it's not exactly the same thing. You could make a pretty similar argument for the confederate states. Again this all really boils down to how you define poo poo. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 06:22
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Angry Salami posted:Was the Taiping Rebellion secessionist? I was under the impression that they saw themselves as taking back China from the Manchu - I guess you could sort of claim that as an anti-imperialist succession, but if both sides saw themselves as 'China' it's not exactly the same thing. I feel like "a chunk of a country decides to be self-governing and break away from the government that previously controlled the entire country, and they fight over it" is a pretty reasonable definition of a secessionist war?
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Mar 2, 2024 07:10
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How common even are secessionist wars, by that narrow definition?
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Mar 2, 2024 07:16
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cheetah7071 posted:How common even are secessionist wars, by that narrow definition? There were probably at least a dozen in the last 30-40 years? Yugoslavia, Sudan, Chechnya, Kurdistan, etc. Been reading Weavers, Scribes and Kings, and secessionist rebellions started happening pretty much as soon as the first empires. They're probably at least as common as the wars of conquest that established the states being seceded from in the first place. Kings in the ancient near east would name years after rebellions they put down.
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Mar 2, 2024 10:01
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I don't really see this as a difficult distinction. Taiping wanted to overthrow and replace the Qing. The Confederacy did not want New York or Oregon or Maine or even Delaware. It wanted to make its own separate USA with blackjack and hookers. Except in this case the blackjack and hookers are enshrining forever the institution of racist chattel slavery. They had no issue with a continued northern USA continuing to exist, where of course yankee perfidy would be proven wrong by the immortal science of gently caress a factory let's just have slaves and conquer Cuba.
soviet elsa fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 10:28
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Even if you distinguish colonial wars from 'real' secessionist wars that's pretty cloudy. What about Ireland? Chechnya? The Moro liberation movement in the Philippines? Traditionally these areas that are contiguous (more or less) with the mother country and integrated into it decently well were not seen as colonies, but this has been changing fast in the last few years
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Mar 2, 2024 10:35
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To get us back on track a lil more, who feels like infodumping about something actually ancient. I've been seeing some people coming around to positive opinions on Xenophon lately and its weirding me out, what's with that.EricBauman posted:Even if you distinguish colonial wars from 'real' secessionist wars that's pretty cloudy. I don't think its very complicated to distinguish secessionist wars broadly from civil wars of government change: in one of these, the intended end state of one of the belligerents is to change the borders of their state, in the other it isn't. But once we start getting into the question of 'what is a colony' then we end up having to get into like UN definitions and the history of why those definitions were written the way they were and whether or not we accept those definitions as valid or cynically self-serving. And man that just ain't ancient history.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:25
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Xenophon is a fun read
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Mar 2, 2024 20:51
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lotta the consensus that xenophon is a poo poo stems from anti-militarism. you get some just wars (some unjust) going on, the anti-militarism sorta goes away plus it got featured in warhammer a bunch
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Mar 2, 2024 20:54
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I imagine that's a side-effect of the rise of statue-avatar guys and  types. Xenophon is kind of the original Laconaboo and was a big fan, even though he was an Athenian. He was a consummate aristocrat and loved the Spartan lifestyle of sitting around on a big estate while slaves do all the real work. I imagine that's a big part of his appeal.That isn't to say he isn't a valuable source; while he isn't nearly as rigorous as Thucydides, he's not the worst either, and he has a pretty valuable perspective. He's also pretty fun to read.
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Mar 3, 2024 00:28
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soviet elsa posted:I like the ones who look exactly as you would picture them. Hello Nero. he looks almost identical to kadyrov
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Mar 3, 2024 01:35
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FishFood posted:I imagine that's a side-effect of the rise of statue-avatar guys and That's kind of what I figured TBH. The academics I know all treat him as a necessary but unfortunate part of studying the era, and I've seen more people talking about a critical re-evaluation of him but it seems to be from hobbyists, the nerds/academics I know still kind of go "ugh I GUESS its time for xenophon." But I could very much be in a bubble and missing them.
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Mar 3, 2024 01:40
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Tulip posted:That's kind of what I figured TBH. The academics I know all treat him as a necessary but unfortunate part of studying the era, and I've seen more people talking about a critical re-evaluation of him but it seems to be from hobbyists, the nerds/academics I know still kind of go "ugh I GUESS its time for xenophon." But I could very much be in a bubble and missing them. Has anyone ever mapped all his river data out? Like he was really meticulous about recording the width of every river crossing...
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Mar 3, 2024 02:06
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Oh yeah there's a plethra of them
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Mar 3, 2024 02:50
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barbecue at the folks posted:Antoninus Pius inherited from Hadrian a mostly healthy empire and spent his reign on making it even better in almost every respect without ever commanding a single legion, so I think he qualifies. It's kinda funny that he gets overlooked as an emperor exactly because he didn't have to fight any wars, he was just a diligent administrator who spent his long time as princeps on providing public amenities like aqueducts and theatres. Also IIRC Antoninus had a co-emperor who handled all the military stuff. Everyone kind of assumed that he would overthrow or assassinate each other but they just kind of... Worked well together and they each handled their separate spheres until the other guy died in the plagues and Antoninus just kept on emperoring.
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Mar 3, 2024 03:05
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Unlike most Greek writers his book was adapted into an excellent movie.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:01
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feel like most of the significant ones have gotten adapted a dozen times
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Mar 3, 2024 18:10
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Scarodactyl posted:Unlike most Greek writers his book was adapted into an excellent movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--gdB-nnQkU okay, just updated my life goals: watch this film
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Mar 3, 2024 18:28
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Nenonen posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--gdB-nnQkU I think you need to update your afternoon goals and watch this movie.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:48
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bob dobbs is dead posted:feel like most of the significant ones have gotten adapted a dozen times Troy State 253, Devry 141
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Mar 3, 2024 18:55
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I have been reading some Sumerian royal hymns recently and the sheer breadth of feats that kings claim in these texts is truly remarkable. The longest and most boastful example is Shulgi B: https://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section2/tr24202.htm Some selectons: Shulgi posted:11-20 I am a king, offspring begotten by a king and borne by a queen. I, Shulgi the noble, have been blessed with a favourable destiny right from the womb. When I was small, I was at the academy, where I learned the scribal art from the tablets of Sumer and Akkad. None of the nobles could write on clay as I could. There where people regularly went for tutelage in the scribal art, I qualified fully in subtraction, addition, reckoning and accounting. The fair Nanibgal, Nisaba, provided me amply with knowledge and comprehension. I am an experienced scribe who does not neglect a thing. Shulgi posted:131-149 I am a ritually pure interpreter of omens. I am the very Nintud [creator deity] of the collections of omens. These words of the gods are of pre-eminent value for the exact performance of hand-washing and purification rites, for eulogy of the en priestess or for her enthronement in the jipar, for the choosing of the lumah and nindijir priests by sacred extispicy, for attacking the south or for defeating the uplands, for the opening of the emblem house, for the washing of lances in the "water of battle" (blood) , for the taking of subtle decisions about the rebel lands. After I have determined a sound omen through extispicy from a white lamb and a sheep, water and flour are libated at the place of invocation. Then, as I prepare the sheep with words of prayer, my diviner watches in amazement like an idiot. The prepared sheep is placed at my disposal, and I never confuse a favourable sign with an unfavourable one. I myself have a clear intuition, and I judge by my own eyes. In the insides of just one sheep I, the king, can find the indications for everything and everywhere. Shulgi posted:154-174 I, Shulgi, king of Urim, have also devoted myself to the art of music. Nothing is too complicated for me; I know the full extent of the tigi and the adab, the perfection of the art of music. When I fix the frets on the lute, which enraptures my heart, I never damage its neck; I have devised rules for raising and lowering its intervals Shulgi posted:206-220 When I ...... like a torrent with the roar of a great storm, in the capture of a citadel in Elam ......, I can understand what their spokesman answers. By origin I am a son of Sumer; I am a warrior, a warrior of Sumer. Thirdly, I can conduct a conversation with a man from the black mountains. Fourthly, I can do service as a translator with an Amorite, a man of the mountains ....... I myself can correct his confused words in his own language. Fifthly, when a man of Subir yells ......, I can even distinguish the words in his language, although I am not a fellow-citizen of his. When I provide justice in the legal cases of Sumer, I give answers in all five languages. In my palace no one in conversation switches to another language as quickly as I do.
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Mar 3, 2024 23:52
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glad to encounter a fellow ritually pure interpreter of omens
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Mar 4, 2024 00:01
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Squizzle posted:glad to encounter a fellow ritually pure interpreter of omens
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Mar 4, 2024 01:06
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Empires crushed. Lions slaughtered. Omens read. Also: guitar repairs, music lessons.
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Mar 4, 2024 03:05
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then, as i prepare the sheep with words of prayer, my diviner watches in amazement like an idiot. everyone stands up and claps
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Mar 4, 2024 03:57
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really helps you understand why the assamite antediluvian embraced him
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Mar 4, 2024 04:40
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Was it Shulgi who was actually low-born and trying desperately to make up for that? Also he was definitely one of the earlier self-declared god-kings.
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Mar 4, 2024 04:43
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