The US will lose WW3

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FirstnameLastname: Jul 10, 2022

is that one story about the english longbows outfiring otherwise superior french crossbows to win some battle(agincourt?) true

# ? Mar 4, 2024 21:55

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# ? May 24, 2024 04:00

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

stumblebum posted:

in terms of weapon development as a marker and cause of shifting of power from landed aristocracy to manufacturing bourgeoisie, what factors in particular made firearms the export commodity of choice over the crossbow, particularly for purchasing slaves during the triangle trade? were there productive differences that gave firearms an advantage over crossbows in terms of scale and/or flexibility? or was it more strategic/tactical concerns, where firearms had simply outpaced crossbows in terms of average combat effectiveness and thus desirability for exchange?

In terms of technical performance, early firearms would penetrate armor and cover better than bows/crossbows, and shots are more lethal than arrows and bolts.

Bows stuck around more for cavalry because it took a while to get economic (you can use wheelocks, but they're pricy) guns that can be used on horseback.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 21:55

HouseofSuren: Feb 5, 2024; by Pragmatica

Question for the Turks. The gunpowder empires had to deal with this before the Europeans and a better example is the transition from traditional European slaves like Jannissaries (Turkey), Mamluks (Egypt), Ghilman/Ghulum (Iran) into being being brought up with the gunshot as they were former Cataphract/Knights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Attack_at_T%C3%A2rgovi%C8%99te

Ottomans famously setup an Ambush for Vlad the Impaler with this in mind using guns.

That's the first actual people being setup with guns, it's an upgrade for the mounted cataphract who also had a recurve/crossbow, to have just a gun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjagan

# ? Mar 4, 2024 21:56

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Longbows used by a skilled user (and this is the important part) always had more range and higher rate of fire compared to European crossbows iirc. China and Korea had repeating crossbows but let's ignore those.

Anyway, the issue there is to become a skilled user of a longbow you needed to practice many hours a week for your entire life. To become a skilled user of a crossbow, not so much.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 21:57

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Also the French did win a bunch of battles against English longbow, it's just that every so often they took an extremely stupid battle (hey instead of waiting for these guys to poo poo themselves to death let's charge heavy cavalry into a muddy chokepoint of prepared defenses without adequate skirmisher coverage so we can have a glorious victory) and reset the clock another decade.

Also weren't repeating crossbows noticeably lower power and thus basically only useful for personal defense and close quarters?

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:00

HouseofSuren: Feb 5, 2024; by Pragmatica

Orange Devil posted:

Longbows used by a skilled user (and this is the important part) always had more range and higher rate of fire compared to European crossbows iirc. China and Korea had repeating crossbows but let's ignore those.

Anyway, the issue there is to become a skilled user of a longbow you needed to practice many hours a week for your entire life. To become a skilled user of a crossbow, not so much.

You would never use a long bow outside of European warfare. it wouldn't work in large open areas where speed and agility would be key.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:01

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

StashAugustine posted:

Also weren't repeating crossbows noticeably lower power and thus basically only useful for personal defense and close quarters?

I mean, maybe, I dunno, they were also invented and produced 1000 years before the European crossbow so that might have something to do with it.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:01

Cuttlefush: Jan 15, 2014; gotta have my purp

i miss frosted flake

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:02

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Orange Devil posted:

I mean, maybe, I dunno, they were also invented and produced 1000 years before the European crossbow so that might have something to do with it.

Yeah tbc it was still an engineering marvel and a useful weapon for its purpose, just not the medieval machine gun some games portray it as

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:04

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Ardennes posted:

The Russians have been hitting hotels, you routinely get stories from the West complaining about it. Almost certainly, NATO has been taking casualties, it just they don't want to admit it for very clear reasons.

Otherwise, I don't know what some big attack on Kerch would accomplish that the previous ones failed to do. Even if they hit the bridge, it is clearly able to be repaired without too much of an issue, and it doesn't really effect the Russians that considerably. The Russians also have an entire land bridge as well as ferries.

The thinking it is makes Putin look dumb and weak, that's it. The West is unable to think of anything outside of PR moves

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:04

Megamissen: Jul 19, 2022; any post can be a kannapost
if you want it to be

HouseofSuren posted:

You would never use a long bow outside of European warfare. it wouldn't work in large open areas where speed and agility would be key.

how long does a bow have to be to be a longbow? both india and japan has some pretty long bows

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:04

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Cuttlefush posted:

i miss frosted flake

Who?

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:04

FirstnameLastname: Jul 10, 2022

stumblebum posted:

in terms of weapon development as a marker and cause of shifting of power from landed aristocracy to manufacturing bourgeoisie, what factors in particular made firearms the export commodity of choice over the crossbow, particularly for purchasing slaves during the triangle trade? were there productive differences that gave firearms an advantage over crossbows in terms of scale and/or flexibility? or was it more strategic/tactical concerns, where firearms had simply outpaced crossbows in terms of average combat effectiveness and thus desirability for exchange?

crossbows are mechanically very complicated, they're like a mechanical watch as far as weapons go, so many things that can go wrong, hard to scale up production
guns are very simple by comparison and the way they work requires them to be pretty durable
that stuff matters a ton when most people using any given weapon might be illiterate or have never fought in their lives
firearms require way less training before someone becomes deadly compared to bows/crossbows/etc

that creates the potential for massive levees on demand for offensive military action in a way that the older systems and equipment didnt allow

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:06

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

stumblebum posted:

in terms of weapon development as a marker and cause of shifting of power from landed aristocracy to manufacturing bourgeoisie, what factors in particular made firearms the export commodity of choice over the crossbow, particularly for purchasing slaves during the triangle trade? were there productive differences that gave firearms an advantage over crossbows in terms of scale and/or flexibility? or was it more strategic/tactical concerns, where firearms had simply outpaced crossbows in terms of average combat effectiveness and thus desirability for exchange?

Stapleton, A Military History of Africa posted:

THE COASTAL FOREST: SLAVES AND FIREARMS

Portuguese seaborne exploration of the West African coast during the 1400s was motivated by a desire to outflank the Muslims of northwest Africa and find an eastern route to the rich trading grounds of Asia. At first, the main commodity that the Portuguese wanted to acquire from West Africans was gold. During the mid- to late 1400s, the Portuguese established a chain of small enclaves and island colonies along the West African coast. In the 1470s, they built El Mina (the mine) castle on the coast of modern Ghana, where they exchanged copper, brass, and European textiles for gold from Akan just to the north. Around the same time, the Portuguese conquered the small islands of Sao Tome and Principe, establishing sugar plantations worked by slaves obtained from the mainland state of Benin. Because the Portuguese ships were larger and faster, and could travel further than local boats, the West African coastal trade expanded, and commodities that once went north over the Sahara now went south. The Portuguese became carriers of local goods and after 1500, when they entered the Indian Ocean, they brought prized cowries shells into the West African market. After 1492, Europeans colonized the Americas, where they established a plantation system based on that of Portugal�s West African islands. As indigenous Americans died from imported European diseases or fled into the interior and European indentured servants succumbed to tropical disease, African slaves became the main labor force for these plantations. Beginning in 1532 when the Portuguese first shipped African slaves from Sao Tome to Brazil, a trans-Atlantic trade in slaves gradually developed, with other oceanic European powers such as the Dutch, British, and French becoming involved and establishing often poorly garrisoned coastal forts designed more to counter attacks from their competitors� ships rather than hinterland Africans. During a 300-year period, from 1532 to the mid-1800s, at least 12 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic, with perhaps 2 million dying during the infamous Middle Passage and many more worked to death in the Americas. European slave traders usually remained on the West African coast where African rulers brought them captives. Initially, these slaves were by-products of wars fought between African states over power, territory, tribute, or trade. However, during the late 1600s and 1700s, African rulers became dependent on the increasing numbers of firearms they were acquiring from Europeans, with the result that control of coastal trade routes and capture of slaves became more prominent features of warfare in the area. During the early 1800s, Britain banned the trade in slaves and used its naval power to intercept slaving vessels operating along the West African coast. The ban was motivated by the rise of the abolitionist movement, which saw slavery as morally abhorrent; the development of industry and free wage labor in Britain; and the expense of slave rebellions at sea and in the colonies. By the 1850s, in what the British called legitimate commerce, West Africa�s main oceanic export had shifted from slaves to raw materials such as palm oil used in growing European industries. Ironically, this led to an increase in the use of slaves within West Africa because local rulers needed additional labor to harvest the new exports used to continue the acquisition of firearms. The Western presence along the coast increased with freed slave settlements in Sierra Leone and Liberia, and missionaries seeking to spread Christianity and suppress slavery. This section of the chapter will explore the history of warfare along the West African coast during the slave trade and legitimate commerce periods, beginning with the area of present-day Sierra Leone and proceeding east along the coast to the Niger Delta.

With the decline of Mali and its loss of control over the trans-Saharan trade in the 1400s, Mandinka (Malinke) traders and soldiers began to move south to acquire salt and kola nuts, and to engage in coastal exchange with European seafarers. Most accounts claim that the Mane (Mandinka-Malinke) first invaded what is now Liberia and then advanced northwest up the coast in canoes, conquering the local and loosely organized Sapes people in present-day Sierra Leone during the mid-1500s. However, one historian claims the Mane invasion of Liberia was a separate event and took place in the late 1500s and early 1600s. The Mane leaders employed as military allies previously subjugated people called Sumba, whose reputation for cannibalism generated fear among local communities. The small bows and arrows of the Mane gave them an advantage because they could shoot longer captured arrows, but the larger bows of their enemies could not shoot the short Mane arrows. Mane fighters looked fierce as they stuck numerous feathers into their loose knee-length shirts, carried large reed shields that covered their entire body, and were each equipped with two knives, a bow, and two quivers of arrows. The Sapes�s response was divided, with some groups surrendering and others attempting an ultimately futile resistance. However, several communities in the inland north halted
the Mane advance. The Limba and Djalokes burned their homes and withdrew to caves from where they mounted guerrilla attacks on the Mane. Refusing to submit, the Susu retired and left behind poisoned food that the Mane subsequently consumed, resulting in many deaths. The Mane then built a defensive position that the Susu successfully stormed with the help of some Fula (Fulani) horsemen who represented a new feature in local warfare. The attack was so swift that Salvador da Costa, a Portuguese mercenary working for the Mane, could get off only one shot from his firearm before he was forced to flee. The Susu then pursued the Mane and killed many of them. Despite these setbacks, the Mane established four coastal states: Bullum in the north; Loko, which was centered on Port Loko; Boure, which was just south of the Sierra Leone channel; and Sherbro, which was furthest south. The Mane conquest militarized present-day Sierra Leone. Adopting Mane methods, local communities began fielding large units of archers with the characteristic large Mane shields, and building Mane-style fortifications with three or four layers of 4- to 6-meter-high wooden fencing surrounded by a ditch, and watched over by towers manned by archers. The Mane rulers forced the Sapes into labor on plantations producing millet, rice, root crops, and palm wine, much of which was sold to visiting European ships. Some Sapes staged unsuccessful rebellions in the 1570s, and others escaped to the Portuguese-controlled Cape Verde islands.

During the abolitionist period, the freed slave settlements of Sierra Leone and Liberia were created largely through a process of military conquest. In the 1790s, Nova Scotia black loyalists, slaves who had gained their freedom by siding with the British during the American Revolutionary War, were settled on the Sierra Leone peninsula. Adult male settlers were seen as free citizens who had an obligation to participate in the defense of the community through part-time service in a militia. Given the global conflict of the time, in 1794, a French naval force destroyed the settlement, which was then rebuilt. Immediately following the French attack, the settler militia was reorganized and elected its own leaders. The result was that white colonial officials often served under black leaders who had military experience. In 1800, the British brought in 550 Jamaican Maroons, escaped slaves who had fought against colonial authorities in the Caribbean, to suppress a rebellion by black settlers over lack of access to freehold land. Led by their own General Montegue James and a hierarchy of officers, the Maroons maintained a distinct military organization and discipline. Around this time, the British stationed 50 regular white soldiers, mostly convicts, of the newly created Royal African Corps (RAC) in Sierra Leone. In 1803, newly arrived governor William Day, a retired naval captain, established the Corps of Volunteers formed from Nova Scotia and Maroon settlers, and rebuilt Fort Thomson, replacing wood with stone walls and installing new cannon. Concerned the arrival of troops and building of forts would lead to loss of land, the local Temne under King Tom along with some of the onetime settler rebels attacked the colony in 1801 but were defeated. In a series of skirmishes that lasted until 1807, Sierra Leone forces and local Susu allies defeated the Temne and gradually expanded their dominance over the peninsula.

...

In the 1300s, traders from Mali, then at the height of its power, began to make contact with Akan farmers on the border between the savannah and forest in what is now Ghana. This prompted the Akan, during the 1400s, to permanently move into the forest, where they used slave labor to clear land for agriculture and mine gold. Many small Akan states developed, each based on a capital town. Northward export of gold from Akan served to shift the trans-Saharan trade eastward through towns such as Timbuktu and Gao. In the late 1400s, the Portuguese at the southern coast began to exchange slaves from Benin for gold from Akan. Within a few years, several Akan states emerged, such as Denkyira and Akwamu, that fought over control of gold mining and trade routes to the coast. Since the forest in this area was extremely thick (made up often of secondary growth in formerly cleared areas) raiding parties and larger armies had to travel by a network of narrow paths on which it was easy to set up ambushes or hold off attackers; larger battles usually took place in clearings near settlements. Until the late 1700s, Akan warfare often revolved around control of these paths, which meant a small force could block a larger one for a long time, and the strategic movement of multiple columns could cut off an enemy from food supplies. Warfare was dominated by archers and javelin throwers launching their missiles over the heads of a formation of sword- and shield-armed warriors who closed with the enemy for hand-to-hand fighting.

In the 1500s and early 1600s, small groups of European gunmen, usually Portuguese and Dutch, sometimes supported an African army to ensure their local trade partner remained strong or to counter the intervention of other small European units by rivals. However, between the 1650s and 1680s, a "gun revolution" took place as large amounts of firearms, particularly new flintlocks (which were easier to use) and ammunition, were obtained from Europeans on the coast in exchange for gold and slaves. These new weapons led to a change in Akan fighting methods, which shifted to mobile groups of gunmen called the right and left wings. It became common for Akan armies to employ units of hundreds of musketeers. The spread of firearms and the growth of a few larger states also had an impact on military organization. The small Akan states usually raised small armies made up of professional warriors trained in sword and shield combat, while the larger kingdoms raised larger armies made up primarily of peasant conscripts with guns. Akwamu was the first Akan state to adopt firearms, and its ruler cultivated an army made up of a core of semi-professional gunmen and a large number of conscripts. Adopting firearms and new tactics, Denkyira was the dominant Akan state from the 1660s to 1690s and controlled trade with the Dutch, who had captured El Mina, and the British at Cape Coast castle.

Fighting a series of demanding wars during the 1690s to its south against Asen and Twifo to keep trade routes to the coast open, Denkyira requisitioned more resources from its own subjects and tributary states. This led to a rebellion against Denkyira by a coalition of northern Akan groups led by Osei Tutu and based at the trading center of Kumasi. Osei Tutu had observed gun-bearing armies in the region and upon becoming ruler of Kumasi around 1680, he recruited a detachment of gunmen from Akwamu. Fighting between Denkyira and Osei Tutu's alliance began around 1699 or 1700, and the southern communities began to block shipments of firearms and ammunition from the coast to Denkyira. In 1701, Denkyira's army pushed Osei Tutu's rebels northeast in a series of fierce battles. However, this seems to have been a trap because the Denkyira force clashed with Osei Tutu's main army at Feyiase and was defeated. The Denkyira ruler, Ntim Gyakari, was killed and his army fled south, allowing Osei Tutu's men to advance and sack Denkyira's trading towns. From this point, Osei Tutu brought most other Akan states under his new Asante Empire, which was centered on Kumasi. After a Denkyira rebellion was suppressed in 1707 and 1708, it was incorporated into the Asante state. Around the same time, coastal Fante was becoming an important intermediary in the European trade and extended its territory by conquering other coastal states such as Fetu, Aguafo, and Asebu. From 1700 to 1710, Akwamu expanded east across the Volta River.

Although Asante began as a loose coalition, Osei Tutu's power was enhanced when local religious leaders presented him with a "golden stool" as the symbol of Asante kingship. Between 1713 and 1715, Osei Tutu led his army south to subdue the Twifu, Wassa, Aowin, and Nzema. In 1717, he invaded Akyem to the east but was killed. Taking over as Asante ruler, Opoku Ware led numerous campaigns that expanded the empire. In the 1720s, he attacked Akyem to the east, fought off an invasion from the west by Aowin, defeated Bono to the north, and in the south pushed the capital of Wassa closer to the coast. Opoku Ware subsequently conquered many areas, including western Gonja and Gyaaman in 1732, Banda in 1740, Akyem in 1742, and eastern Gonja and Dagomba in 1744. When Opoku Ware died in 1750, Asante was a vast empire that controlled all the Akan states except Fante and stretched across an area larger than present-day Ghana. During this period, the Asante army was organized into a number of distinct elements: scouts, advance guard, main body, commander's bodyguard, rear guard, and right and left wings. Each part of the empire was responsible for providing one of these elements. During the late 1700s, the Asante Empire constructed a network of "great roads" that connected major towns. While this enhanced trade, it also removed the advantages that small forces had along the narrow forest paths and allowed for quick movement of large armies through the forest. This enabled Asante to put down a long series of rebellions by vassal states such as Wassa in 1760, 1776, and 1785, and Akyem in 1765 and 1767. However, Akyem defeated Asante in 1772.

West Africa also had knights, who lost their social and political power when guns came along, hundreds of years later than in Europe. I'm not sure how many people know that,

Stapleton, A Military History of Africa posted:

Inhabiting what is now western Nigeria stretching from the savanna below the lower Niger River south to the coastal forest, Yoruba farmers produced a food surplus and began state formation around 1000 or 1100. Located in the fertile and well-watered border between savanna and forest that was suitable for cultivation and livestock, Ife became the original Yoruba city-state and produced enough food that some of its subjects became specialist artists producing wood and ivory carvings and metal castings. Ife inspired the formation of a series of similar states, each based on a major town. Because Ife's influence was based on its spiritual and cultural importance to the Yoruba, it did not maintain a standing army. Located on the savanna near where the Niger River enters the forest, the town of Oyo Ile was inhabited as early as the 700s and was an important trading center around 1535 when it was attacked by neighboring Nupe. As a result, the Oyo rulers fled west to Borgu, where they copied their Nupe enemies and other neighbors such as the Hausa by adopting cavalry warfare. By the early 1500s, they had established a new capital at Igboho, 65 kilometers west of the old one. During the late 1500s, they recaptured Oyo Ile and conquered the Yoruba city of Ilorin to the east. Expanding into the savanna gap to the west and southwest, Oyo became a major intermediary in the trade between coastal groups in the south and the Hausa in the north. Because Oyo's military power was based on cavalry, which dominated its open savanna homeland, yet tropical disease made it difficult to breed large horses in that area, their success came to depend on constantly acquiring horses from the north by exporting slaves. In addition, slaves played important roles in the Oyo state administration and military. Oyo established a semipermanent heavy cavalry force of 70 war leaders (Eso) who were appointed on merit by the ruling council and king. Each war leader provided a number of specialist soldiers such as heavy cavalry, sometimes slaves of northern origin, and archers. Initially, the kings of Oyo personally led their armies into battle; but during the wars with Nupe, one was accidentally drowned in a river and another narrowly avoided death in combat. Therefore, from around 1600, all military expeditions were led by an appointed supreme commander who was required to live outside the capital and was usually a provincial governor. To provide motivation, the Oyo state required that the leader of an unsuccessful military expedition commit suicide, and several failed commanders were executed in the late 1600s and 1700s. Oyo Ile was protected by a perhaps 10,000-strong metropolitan army, which included a palace guard made up of slaves who were commanded by a member of the ruling council and who provided most of the state's cavalry forces. Provincial governors were responsible for raising armies that consisted mostly of infantry to collect tribute or embark on imperial campaigns. Attempts by Oyo to expand southeast into the forest during the late 1500s and early 1600s were hindered by the area's lack of suitability for cavalry and resistance by Benin. Although Oyo's southern expansion was limited by the fact that its horses could not live permanently near the coast because of tropical disease, it began raiding south toward Dahomey in 1682 and invaded that coastal state several times in the early and mid-1700s. These conflicts pitted the Oyo cavalry, armed with lances, swords, and bows, against Dahomey's firearm-equipped infantry. In 1726, the smoke and noise of Dahomey's firearms frightened the horses of Oyo's all-cavalry invasion force and prevented them from launching what would have been a devastating charge. Dahomey forces also attempted to counter Oyo cavalry by fortifying their settlements with wooden and bush walls as well as ditches protected by European-made cannon. Oyo fighters responded by dismounting and launching determined infantry assaults on the forts that overwhelmed Dahomey forces after days of hard fighting. During the two protracted conflicts fought by these two states from 1726 to 1730 and 1742 to 1748, Oyo was unable to conquer Dahomey, and Dahomey was unable to prevent damage from Oyo raids. As a result, in 1748, Dahomey agreed to a humiliating settlement in which it became a tributary state of Oyo.

Tell me if you've heard this one before, "Conflict between the king and his council weakened the state's power."

Stapleton, A Military History of Africa posted:

Conflict between the king and his council during the late 1700s weakened Oyo's power. In the 1790s, Afonja, the commander of Oyo's provincial armies and ruler of Ilorin, rebelled against the central government. Afonja's army took Oyo Ile in 1796, but when he was not named the new Oyo ruler, he declared Ilorin's independence. After two decades of inconclusive warfare between Oyo and Ilorin, Afonja, in 1817, gained assistance from the Sokoto Caliphate, which extended its Fulani-led jihad into Oyo, where there was a Muslim minority. Although Afonja initially benefited from this alliance, he was not a Muslim and in 1823, the Fulani jihadists under Abd al-Salam killed him and incorporated Ilorin into Sokoto. As early as the 1780s, Oyo was defeated by neighboring Borgu and Nupe, with the latter becoming part of Sokoto in the early 1800s. In the 1790s, the Egba, located south of Oyo and north of Lagos Lagoon, rebelled and broke from Oyo. In 1822, Owu (Oyo's main ally) was destroyed by forces from Ijebu and Ife. Dahomey reasserted its independence by cutting off Oyo's access to the coastal slave market at Porto Novo in 1807, ceasing payment of tribute in 1823, and seizing Oyo's most southern province of Egbado around 1830. Denied slave exports and unable to acquire horses from its hostile jihadist neighbors, Oyo collapsed and in 1833, its capital and major towns were sacked by Ilorin.

During the 1820s and 1830s, refugees from Oyo moved south into the forest zone, where some recreated their state at New Oyo and others founded new states such as Ibadan and Ijaye; exiles from Egba formed Abeokuta. These Yoruba states fought a series of wars to fill the vacuum created by the fall of Oyo. As the Yoruba shifted south into the forest, they abandoned cavalry warfare and developed infantry armies led by commanders on horseback. Compared to other West African coastal groups, the Yoruba were late in taking up firearms. In the early 1800s, most Yoruba soldiers were armed with bows and arrows (sometimes poisoned), and swords. They seem to have discarded the shields that were employed in earlier times. The first Yoruba state to use firearms was coastal Ijebu during the 1822 siege of Owu. The use of firearms proliferated across Yoruba country in the mid-nineteenth century. In the early 1840s, a few Yoruba soldiers had firearms; by the 1850s, their possession had become widespread; and by the 1870s, every fighter had one. While individual soldiers were responsible for bringing their own guns to war, rulers were supposed to supply ammunition. Most of these firearms were long-barreled flintlocks of Danish origin called Dane guns or long Danes; they were fed with low-quality powder from the United States and shot made from iron bars by local blacksmiths. With the spread of firearms, battles between Yoruba armies became characterized by two lines of men firing at each other from less than 100 meters apart, with those finished firing moving to the rear.

Unlike most of the new Yoruba states, which were monarchies, Ibadan by the 1840s had become a "military meritocracy" in which chieftaincy was determined by military skill and not inheritance or place of origin. Lacking such opportunities at home, men from other parts of Yoruba country flocked to Ibadan, where they joined one of the existing leaders. Fighters who proved themselves in combat would attract their own military followings, eventually gaining public attention and appointment to leadership positions. Ibadan's army consisted of many smaller personal armies, each with its own leader and made up of his relatives, local volunteers, new immigrants, and war captives. These small armies were the chiefs' primary means for advancement in the state. An advantage of this system was that in war, each chief strove to distinguish himself, and each soldier was intensely loyal to his chief (upon whom his future prospects depended). However, it also meant that Ibadan had to constantly engage in warfare because the leaders always needed to prove themselves and acquire shares of slaves, which they exported to the coast in exchange for the firearms necessary to arm their followers.

Around 1840, Fulani jihadist cavalry from Ilorin besieged Osogbo, which was a walled Yoruba town on the edge of the forest and represented an important crossroads from the other Yoruba settlements. Upon a call for help from Osogbo's ruler, an army from Ibadan marched north and entered the town. Since the open ground around Osogbo would favor the highly mobile Ilorin horsemen in conventional battle, the Ibadan infantry, mostly armed with swords and a few flintlocks, conducted a surprise night attack on their enemy's camp, which threw them into complete confusion and flight. In their panic to escape, many Ilorin cavalrymen forgot to untie their horses and were cut down. A large number of prisoners and horses were taken, though the latter were not used to re-create the Yoruba cavalry. Another factor in the Ilorin defeat was likely disease; it appears that their soldiers were suffering from dysentery and their horses from the impact of the tsetse fly. Historians consider this Battle of Osogbo to be the most significant engagement of the nineteenth-century Yoruba wars because it halted the southward advance of the Fulani jihad and marked the beginning of Ibadan's rise as an expansionist power.

During the 1840s, Ibadan pushed the Ilorin cavalry north to within just a few kilometers of their capital. In 1854, Ibadan intervened to suppress a refugee rebellion in Ile-Ife, which made the Yoruba spiritual capital a tributary state. Throughout the 1850s, armies from Ibadan advanced east into Ijesa, Ekiti, Igbomina, and Akoko territories, where they defeated Ilorin interventionist forces, besieged and destroyed many towns, and accepted the surrender of others. Along the northern border of its new territory, Ibadan constructed a series of defensive posts to guard against Ilorin attack. As more communities were subjugated, free men and slaves from these areas swelled the ranks of Ibadan's armies, which began to enjoy numerical superiority over their enemies. In 1860, Ijaye built a coalition against growing Ibadan imperialism. Along the coast, the Egba and Ijebu blocked Ibadan's access to European firearms and ammunition, raided Ibadan farms to their north, and captured the Ibadan town of Apomu. However, the Ijebu Remo faction refused to join the alliance and continued to provide Ibadan with ammunition. Further inland, Ilorin horsemen attacked south into Ibadan territory, joined forces with an Ijaye army besieging Ogbomoso in the far north of Ibadan's empire, and smashed the Ibadan tributary town of Ilobu. Early in the war, an Ibadan army drove an Ijaye force, along with its ineffectual Egba allies, back to their capital town, which endured a long siege until its destruction in March 1862. After the destruction of Ijaye, the Egba and Ijebu attacked the Ijebu Remo in an attempt to completely cut Ibadan off from coastal trade. In turn, Ibadan sent an army south against the Egba and Ijebu, but the campaign stalemated because Ibadan forces could not get ammunition and feared attack from the rear. This protracted conflict undermined commerce at coastal Lagos, which the British had seized in 1861 to secure palm oil and suppress the slave trade. As a result, in 1865 the British intervened by sending a small force that used rockets to lift an Egba siege of the Remo town Ikorodu. The Egba and Ijebu then partly lifted their restrictions on Ibadan's access to the coast. With Ibadan distracted by these conflicts, the Ijesa attempted to regain their independence in the 1860s. However, in December 1867, an Ibadan army defeated an Ijesa force and pushed them back to the well-fortified town of Ilesa, which was besieged for several years. Starved into submission, the rebels negotiated a settlement whereby they were given safe passage out of the town, which the Ibadan army entered and took many inhabitants as slaves. Although news of the sacking of Ilesa caused the Egba to tighten their trade restrictions on Ibadan, most other groups in the area abandoned resistance for the next few years. The Yoruba wars of the early to mid-1800s caused a surge in the number of slaves exported from what is now western Nigeria. Since this was the same time that Britain was suppressing the oceanic slave trade, the Yoruba were some of the last West African slaves taken to the Americas and sometimes retained their identity, such as in Brazil.

It's three volumes, but covers the introduction of guns and changes in society in every part of Africa. It's a great read.

and then what's interesting is, some of these African societies became so proficient with muskets, depending on when they got them, that they reached military parity with the Europeans, in rich parts of Africa had more guns and better than the Europeans. Then breechloading rifles came around and the Europeans had the advantage. Then those African societies started acquiring rifles and got very good at using them. Repeating rifles came along, those African societies eventually got those too. There's actually a reason why having the Maxim Gun, "and they have not", was so important.

The British launched numerous expeditions into the unknown parts of East Africa on the rumour that some unscrupulous (French, American, German) trader was offering Maxim Guns to the natives. The European powers all reached agreements of varying formality that none of them were to ever give Maxim Guns to any African society, it was considered something like nuclear proliferation.

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 22:12 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:07

HouseofSuren: Feb 5, 2024; by Pragmatica

Megamissen posted:

how long does a bow have to be to be a longbow? both india and japan has some pretty long bows

If you're into bows I suggest this guy

https://www.youtube.com/@ArminHirmer

I always think English Long Bow first which is a very big bow, but they can be close to the same size as a recurve. I just don't know how horse riding with a long bow works.

Think this kind of engagement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVaADXhnxuE&t=661s

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:08

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

If you want an idea of why they were scared, the Iroquois were the dominant military power in North America for over a century once they started getting large number of guns. There was no central authority interdicting traders and lots of unscrupulous whalers in the area around New Zealand, so the Maori got lots of guns and steel weapons and tools, and became incredibly powerful, while almost destroying their society (and the British colonies) in wars. The Japanese went from matchlock muskets to the Zero in less than a hundred years. The Indians went from making war by clattering schellenbaum and reciting poetry or whatever before battle to the best soldiers in the world.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:22

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

I'm starting to think maybe martial prowess is material rather than racial?

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:24

HouseofSuren: Feb 5, 2024; by Pragmatica

Orange Devil posted:

I'm starting to think maybe martial prowess is material rather than racial?

Cultural.

The Romans, never in their history are ever a dominant horse-riding force, ever, and they tried really hard.

Atilla's forces attacked the Sassanians too and failed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnic_invasion_of_the_Sasanian_Empire

out of every campaign the only Roman one to actually make it into the east, past the Zagros mountains, besides Alexander the Great who is not Roman.

Is Marc Antony trying to siege a fortress in the Median province with Caesars plans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony%27s_Atropatene_campaign

HouseofSuren has issued a correction as of 22:31 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:26

skooma512: Feb 8, 2012; You couldn't grok my race car, but you dug the roadside blur.

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

If you want an idea of why they were scared, the Iroquois were the dominant military power in North America for over a century once they started getting large number of guns. There was no central authority interdicting traders and lots of unscrupulous whalers in the area around New Zealand, so the Maori got lots of guns and steel weapons and tools, and became incredibly powerful, while almost destroying their society (and the British colonies) in wars. The Japanese went from matchlock muskets to the Zero in less than a hundred years. The Indians went from making war by clattering schellenbaum and reciting poetry or whatever before battle to the best soldiers in the world.

I would say that the people selling guns to indigenous folks are the most scrupulous Europeans by far.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:30

FirstnameLastname: Jul 10, 2022

HouseofSuren posted:

Cultural.

The Romans, never in their history are ever a dominant horse-riding force, ever, and they tried really hard.

Atilla's forces attacked the Sassanians too and failed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnic_invasion_of_the_Sasanian_Empire

cultural martial characteristics and relative performance are materially driven
the Romans didn't have a horse army because they weren't fighting on steppes & a horseback army can't work v. far from where the land can support the horses

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:34

HouseofSuren: Feb 5, 2024; by Pragmatica

That's not correct, the Roman's would hire steppe forces to protect that area, in replace of creating their own proper equivalency.

Hence you have them losing to the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, including the Alans.

The whole reason knights even come to the Charlamagne Franks is because of those same Alan's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attaces

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respendial

400 years later around 800 AD the Rustamids bring cataphractery to the west africans like the Songhai

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rustamid_dynasty

I'll point out something

These are the same name in different Iranian cultures/times

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attaces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsaces_I_of_Parthia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artaxerxes_I

HouseofSuren has issued a correction as of 22:42 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:36

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Also the Late Roman heavy cavalry was the most powerful striking arm of their military, and cataphracts were very rarely beaten.

This is another boring materialist thing where you have to look at land with grazing potential.

Anthropogenic land use in Europe and surrounding areas at AD 800 simulated by four different modelling approaches: (a) the Kaplan et al. (2009) standard scenario; (b) the Kaplan et al. (2009) technology scenario; (c) the HYDE 3.1 database (Klein Goldewijk et al., 2010); (d), the Pongratz et al. (2008) maximum scenario.

As for the Merovingian cavalry, when the V�lkerwanderung happens, or doesn't, there are traditionally two subtypes of Germanic people "Horse" and "Foot", determined by how their elites fought. Saxons, famously, fought on foot. Many of the more eastern (and so either on the Eurasian steppe or in the Pannonian Basin) Germanic people fought on horseback, and were intermingled with Huns, Avars, Alans etc.

Regardless, the Roman heavy cavalry tradition is pretty persistent in Frankia and elsewhere, Ystrad Clud, and so it's pretty easy to draw the line from the Dux and their retainers to Arthur and his knights and Charlemagne and the Paladins.

Like all feudal systems, it's a hybrid anyway. There's Christian ritual, Germanic oath-based bonds, and Roman law. The material culture is also hybridized, but the arms and armour as well as much of the tack and bridle are notably related to late Roman forms.

The real difference is the economic base and unifying political structure to raise cavalry mounts, produce large amounts of armour etc. There's no place in Europe where that can all be supported locally. Something needs to be imported, and often things need to be scaled back. Instead of 400�600 equites, a polity could produce maybe a few dozen men with both mounts and armour of some kind. However, the other polities were in the same situation, armies mostly consisted of men with no more than spears, axes and shields, so their relative military advantage, and so impact, was high all the way through.

The economic limits of the new polities prevented large year-round armies, so we see levies form the bulk of fighters. Well, someone with training, a sword, and protection enjoys a huge advantage over just some guy with a spear and shield, and so Huscarls and other retinues have a big advantage too, and that's another thing that shapes social relations. Even on foot, again we look at the Danes, Saxons and Anglo-Saxons, an armoured man on foot who fights for a living has a huge advantage over a levy who doesn't.

It's all material, but I don't think that makes it boring.

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 22:51 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:38

FirstnameLastname: Jul 10, 2022

HouseofSuren posted:

That's not correct, the Roman's would hire steppe forces to protect that area, in replace of creating their own proper equivalency.

Hence you have them losing to the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, including the Alans.

The whole reason knights even come to the Charlamagne Franks is because of those same Alan's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attaces

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respendial

400 years later around 800 AD the Rustamids bring cataphractery to the west africans like the Songhai

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rustamid_dynasty

I'll point out something

These are the same name in different Iranian cultures/times

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attaces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsaces_I_of_Parthia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artaxerxes_I

no like

the kind of army that's useful in the steppes isn't useful around most of the mediterranean and vice versa
its why the mongols didnt wash over all of europe in one motion too, just can't move easy enough can't support the concentration of horses and soldiers in one spot the way they could in the flatter area but they were able to penetrate deeper into china because less distance pretty much

flatland also guaranteed whoever was there would be really good at war because theyd develop from fighting groups on equal footing like 1v1 final destination lol

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:45

HouseofSuren: Feb 5, 2024; by Pragmatica

Have you read about Artorias?

Apparently knights of the round most likely come from this guy, a dalmatian that was brought to the Island

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artoria_gens

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Artorius_Castus

His name came from this region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia

If this is correct, he probably was like Skudra, who Persians considered a very western scythian people which included Macedonians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra

Phillips kingdom starts immediately as the province gets freedom and he's trained with Companion Cavalry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_cavalry

If you look up the origin of the term Immortals it's either Immortal or Companion based on a misunderstanding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortals_(Achaemenid_Empire)

Achaemenians don't record the name Immortal

However these do not record the name of "Immortals". It is suggested that Herodotus' informant has confused the word an��iya- (lit. 'companion') with anau�a- (lit. 'immortal'),[3] but this theory has been criticized by R�diger Schmitt.[2]

You know who else has companion cavalry? Cyrus the great.

I laugh when people think this was done on foot:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_campaign_of_Darius_I

Darius conquers Macedon/Thrace/Dacia and marches into modern Ukraine/Crimea/Russia and defeats the scythians there

HouseofSuren has issued a correction as of 22:57 on Mar 4, 2024

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:46

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

There's a million different theories like that, I'd say that there's no definitive truth. That's why I like "The Arthur Of" series. Seeing how Arthurian stories were adapted and changed all over Europe is really cool. The Arthur of the Italians is a great intro because it's so familiar and so different at the same time .

The Arthurian legend reached all levels of society in medieval and Renaissance Italy, from princely courts, with their luxury books and frescoed palaces, to the merchant classes and popular audiences in the piazza, who enjoyed shorter retellings in verse and prose. The Arthur of the Italians offers an overview of the Arthurian fiction and art created in Italy during this time, with chapters examining, among other topics, the transmission of the French romances across Italy; the reworking of Arthurian tales in various Italian regional dialects; the textual relations of the story of Tristan; the narrative structures employed by Italian writers; later ottava rima poetic versions in the new medium of printed books; and the Arthurian-themed art of the Middle Ages and Renaissance.

Well, is this the same figure as The Arthur of the Low Countries? Yes and no,

In the medieval Low Countries (nowadays Belgium and the Netherlands), Arthurian romance flourished in the 13th and 14th centuries. The Middle Dutch poets translated French material), but also created romances of their own. The Arthur of the Low Countries provides a �state of the art� overview of the Dutch Arthurian material and the research it has provoked. The region is a crossroads between the French and Germanic spheres of influence and the movement of texts and manuscripts (West to East) reflects that position, as chapters on the historical context, the French material and the Germanic Arthuriana of the Rhinelands reveal. Three chapters, on the translations of French verse texts, the translations of French prose texts, and on the indigenous romances, form the core of the book, enriched by chapters on the manuscripts, on Arthur in the chronicles and on the post-medieval Arthurian material.

and of course in both Northern Italy and the Low Countries, actual knights did not have the same military advantage and social position, as we were just talking about, so it's even cooler hearing about how people who weren't Normans, the cities were the economic and military heart of society, related to the idea of knighthood, what it meant to them, and so on.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:57

HouseofSuren: Feb 5, 2024; by Pragmatica

I think it assumes the Dalmatian's are descendants in some capacity to Sarmatians.

It would be close to this area. Like how Wallachians/Romanians are thrace/dahae.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 22:58

Mister Bates: Aug 4, 2010

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

West Africa also had knights, who lost their social and political power when guns came along, hundreds of years later than in Europe. I'm not sure how many people know that,

Tell me if you've heard this one before, "Conflict between the king and his council weakened the state's power."

It's three volumes, but covers the introduction of guns and changes in society in every part of Africa. It's a great read.

and then what's interesting is, some of these African societies became so proficient with muskets, depending on when they got them, that they reached military parity with the Europeans, in rich parts of Africa had more guns and better than the Europeans. Then breechloading rifles came around and the Europeans had the advantage. Then those African societies started acquiring rifles and got very good at using them. Repeating rifles came along, those African societies eventually got those too. There's actually a reason why having the Maxim Gun, "and they have not", was so important.

The British launched numerous expeditions into the unknown parts of East Africa on the rumour that some unscrupulous (French, American, German) trader was offering Maxim Guns to the natives. The European powers all reached agreements of varying formality that none of them were to ever give Maxim Guns to any African society, it was considered something like nuclear proliferation.

the conflict between the US and the native populations it was exterminating very nearly made the transition from a guerrilla war to a conventional war between organized armies on the field during the War of 1812, and there was for a brief moment a real possibility that Tecumseh and his allies could have stopped westward expansion dead in its tracks, or at least delayed it by decades.

ironically, after his confederacy collapsed, several tribes attempted to deliberately adopt some of the trappings of European-style feudalism as part of efforts to assimilate into the Southern plantation economy, unsuccessfully trying to emulate a system of military-social organization that had been decisively proven obsolete in a series of wars they participated in.

(I am no fan of the UK, they're the whole reason America is there in the first place and deserve eternal punishment for that, but there is an argument to be made that the US winning that war is one of the worst things that could have possibly happened to my people, lol)

# ? Mar 4, 2024 23:07

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

I mean, Dalmatia was populated mostly by Illyrians in classical antiquity, and in any case all of those areas were thoroughly Romanized in short order - they produced several emperors - but I understand why people like a good yarn.

Mister Bates posted:

(I am no fan of the UK, they're the whole reason America is there in the first place and deserve eternal punishment for that, but there is an argument to be made that the US winning that war is one of the worst things that could have possibly happened to my people, lol)

I agree with everything you are saying except America did not win the War of 1812.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 23:07

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

I only believe Lucius Artorius Cassus was Arthur because it was in Vinland Saga

# ? Mar 4, 2024 23:10

Hubbert: Mar 25, 2007; At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

and for everyone taking notes at home, the past two pages are why the us will lose ww3

# ? Mar 4, 2024 23:30

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

FirstnameLastname posted:

is that one story about the english longbows outfiring otherwise superior french crossbows to win some battle(agincourt?) true

IIRC at Agincourt the French command was so hosed up the crossbowmen just sat around doing nothing the entire battle. At Crecy the longbowmen outshot the (Italian) crossbowmen for reasons that are not entirely clear.

# ? Mar 4, 2024 23:35

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Hubbert posted:

and for everyone taking notes at home, the past two pages are why the us will lose ww3

drat right

# ? Mar 4, 2024 23:37

Al!: Apr 2, 2010

HouseofSuren posted:

Have you read about Artorias?

read about him? buddy i watched a whole 2 hour lore video, and ive slain him like half a dozen times

# ? Mar 5, 2024 00:16

Griz: May 21, 2001

sullat posted:

At Crecy the longbowmen outshot the (Italian) crossbowmen for reasons that are not entirely clear.

no one bothered to unload the pavises or spare ammo from the baggage train so the crossbowmen probably just did two volleys with what they had and hosed off to avoid being slaughtered

# ? Mar 5, 2024 00:16

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

are we doing horsies vs arrows in here again

# ? Mar 5, 2024 00:25

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

The new(ish) tentatively accepted theory about Crecy is that the Genoese were tired from having marched most of the day, were ordered to engage while their pavises were still with the baggage, advanced into the sun, and were shot down. After taking casualties to no good effect, the crossbowmen began an orderly withdrawal from the field at which time the "kill me this rabble" order of Charles de Alencon was issued. The French then launched headlong unorganized attacks against the prepared English positions and in the words of Jean Froissart in his Chronicles, "The lords and knights of France came not to the assembly together in good order, for some came before and some came after in such haste and evil order, that one of them did trouble another." The French forces threw away what should have been an assured victory (the French love affair with the "arme blanche" lasted until WWI) through arrogance and a belief that the cavalry charge would carry everything before it.

# ? Mar 5, 2024 00:27

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

Hubbert posted:

and for everyone taking notes at home, the past two pages are why the us will lose ww3

What, the European terrain dictated the range of the Mongolian meat tank?

# ? Mar 5, 2024 00:32

HouseofSuren: Feb 5, 2024; by Pragmatica

If you read the GBS and DND threads about this war you'd swear to god Ukraine was about to summon a Gundam and the fact that they don't even have an airforce or a navy isn't a big deal while on the retreat from large cities.

I'd rather have Russians and Hamas than those people as fellow countrymen.

# ? Mar 5, 2024 00:38

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Hubbert posted:

and for everyone taking notes at home, the past two pages are why the us will lose ww3

The MQ-9 Reaper is a Longbow, the Houthi antiship ballistic missile is the matchlock. It's all on topic

# ? Mar 5, 2024 00:41

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# ? May 24, 2024 04:00

Doktor Avalanche: Dec 30, 2008

HouseofSuren posted:

If you read the GBS and DND threads about this war you'd swear to god Ukraine was about to summon a Gundam and the fact that they don't even have an airforce or a navy isn't a big deal while on the retreat from large cities.

I'd rather have Russians and Hamas than those people as fellow countrymen.

retreat into fantasy is a common defense mechanism

# ? Mar 5, 2024 01:05

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