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Slavvy posted:Every war game run by NATO assumes air supremacy and it's what allows them to dominate poor countries The entire US way of war is to strike so hard and fast that you don't have protracted conflicts which consume such high volumes of material. It will come down to whether 5th generation stealth actually works so they can gain complete air dominance and allow US ground forces to conduct the fighting in a way that renders all these "new old" tactics moot. Drones, artillery, and trenches dominate right now because no one can get mobility on the battlefield. Presumably, the US led NATO forces won't have a problem with that if their air campaign is unchallenged.
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Mar 5, 2024 15:37
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it would be funny if stealth actually worked and then you'd have a bunch of stealth jets dogfighting with their machine guns
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Mar 5, 2024 15:45
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BitcoinRockefeller posted:Presumably, the US led NATO forces won't have a problem with that if their air campaign is unchallenged. Infantry battalions still need to clear trenches and pick their way through minefields.
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Mar 5, 2024 15:49
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Infantry battalions still need to clear trenches and pick their way through minefields. Even Sid Meier understood this
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Mar 5, 2024 15:52
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Mister Bates posted:it doesn't seem like it should be lethal, it's just a little strip of cloth and you spin it around, it looks so humble and mundane that it's difficult to imagine somebody being seriously injured or even killed by it man, if only there was a famous story about a scrawny little shepard boy with his sling defeating a huge muscled guy armed with sword shield and spear
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Mar 5, 2024 15:53
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Is there a word for this? It’s almost determinism but not quite. Military-potentially-in-being doctrine.
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Mar 5, 2024 16:12
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Orange Devil posted:Military-potentially-in-being doctrine. Well it drives me crazy. We can't get an axle and automotive component manufacturer that will remain nameless to produce shells for a contract, but if they did they would obviously produce mountains of high quality shells, so we can forecast meeting our needs and donating more to Ukraine, plus more shells to battlegroup. The shells don't exist yet, and I don't think they're going to budge unless we outbid the automakers (not going to happen), plus they'd need to retool and of course they can't fill the shells, and we've cut shell use for training to almost nothing... but potentially we have a high tech company that shows Canada's commanding lead over Russia in manufacturing... so? It's like how they diverted the new Bisons to Ukraine, but we're still talking as if deliveries to the Canadian Army have taken place. Those vehicles are not actually in inventory, but GD completed X of them, so it's almost as if we have that many? Instead of nearly none? The 15 year project to make a LAV without a turret was a resounding success.
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Mar 5, 2024 16:21
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Artilleryman increasingly agitated that spreadsheet bureaucrats value their spreadsheets more than reality.
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Mar 5, 2024 16:31
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In the frictionless world of excuse manufacturing, you can have your cake and eat it too.
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Mar 5, 2024 16:34
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Bar Crow posted:In the frictionless world of excuse manufacturing, you can have your cake and eat it too. Teaching me ballistics and meteorology was a curse. Like Cassandra with tinnitus.
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Mar 5, 2024 16:36
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Grilled Beef posted:man, if only there was a famous story about a scrawny little shepard boy with his sling defeating a huge muscled guy armed with sword shield and spear Why would a story about a guy who needed devine intervention to stand a chance make people like slingshots? If that's all you know them from it sounds like they are totally outclassed unless you get a diety on your side.
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Mar 5, 2024 17:05
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God respects light infantry
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Mar 5, 2024 17:10
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Well it drives me crazy. I think there's a big connection to Just In Time, which is a valid methodology in some aspects, but has become a religion that is poorly understood even by its priests. JIT simplifies things: you don't need to store so much. Great! And the producers need to just produce as much as is necessary (except in practice). Great! But "we will move heaven and earth to make sure that everything shows up just in time" as a method of action has transitioned to "things will show up just in time" as an article of faith. Then, since it is a faith, it has been universalized to also include the military. If you needed the shells, you would have them. If you don't have them, by definition it means you don't need them.
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Mar 5, 2024 17:12
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I have never seen staff sling in Kung Fu movies, I call bullshit on this tech tree.
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Mar 5, 2024 17:12
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I think it is worth contrasting with China, which just seems to believe in making things. Almost as if they believe material things are better than things in a computer. There is an endless assortment of drones within the Chinese armed forces, with more being introduced every year. It's hard to know what some of them are for. Some seem very specialized, and some seem redundant considering other types in service. A lot of Western commenters think this shows a lack of direction or coherent doctrine. I think it shows that China is capable of putting out prototypes rapidly and effortlessly, and believes the best way to determine if they are good or how to use them is to make a few and give them to the military. Their approach would seem insane if you believe that a weapons program takes 10-20 years and tens of billions of dollars. If it takes 6 months or less, clearly the situation is very different. Thinking about the US attempting to replace the Humvee, since 2005. And the Bradley, since 2009. And the m113, since 2013. Zeppelin Insanity has issued a correction as of 17:23 on Mar 5, 2024 |
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Mar 5, 2024 17:19
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:I think there's a big connection to Just In Time, which is a valid methodology in some aspects, but has become a religion that is poorly understood even by its priests. That would explain why people hate War Stores in MTL, and talk about it exclusively as a waste.  e: or during Afghanistan, so most of my career, anything that was not immediately useful - TOWs, LAV TOW carriers, ADATS, the Oerlikons, the Bofors, Javelin (the MANPAD), Eyrx, M113, M109, Cougar (LAV with 76mm gun), Lynx (weapons carrier with 20mm gun), pack howitzers, Kiowa, was treated as a waste and a burden, and scrapped as quickly as possible - and never replaced. If enough had been in War Stores, maybe we could refurbish them, like the Navy did with the Bofors, but now we’re hosed because while it was old Cold War stuff, we can’t actually get new replacements, even if they theoretically exist. DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 17:40 on Mar 5, 2024 |
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Mar 5, 2024 17:33
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Is there a word for this? It’s almost determinism but not quite. It's no different from your old high school buddy who peaked his senior year and still dwell on his winning touchdown in the division game. He has a potbelly and haven't touched a weight in 20 years but he still insist that he totally can bench press 235 if he wanted to
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Mar 5, 2024 17:35
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Cold War equipment in War Stores, even if worn out and “obsolete” is still better than not actually having any of the new high tech stuff that rendered the whole idea of “35mm AA guns” and “any antitank weapons whatsoever” “outdated”. Am I crazy? Wouldn’t you rather have the Oerlikon than nothing? The whole MMEV fiasco should have been a giant loving wake up call.
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Mar 5, 2024 17:44
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:I think it shows that China is capable of putting out prototypes rapidly and effortlessly, and believes the best way to determine if they are good or how to use them is to make a few and give them to the military. Their approach would seem insane if you believe that a weapons program takes 10-20 years and tens of billions of dollars. If it takes 6 months or less, clearly the situation is very different. Fast prototyping and lots of iteration leads to better results? Nation of computertouchers says "No, this is dumb!"
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Mar 5, 2024 17:52
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Hatebag posted:it would be funny if stealth actually worked and then you'd have a bunch of stealth jets dogfighting with their
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Mar 5, 2024 17:56
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Is there a word for this? It’s almost determinism but not quite. "Diamondism" or "Fukuyamaism" are the terms that resonate for me. The putrid reek of laundered racism. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10455752.2013.846490
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Mar 5, 2024 18:15
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proposing a new program called No Gun Left Behind batteries are graded on the number of shells they put within 100 meter CEP. The more accurate a battery is, the more shells they get allotted for training with, per fiscal quarter
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Mar 5, 2024 18:40
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Cold War equipment in War Stores, even if worn out and “obsolete” is still better than not actually having any of the new high tech stuff that rendered the whole idea of “35mm AA guns” and “any antitank weapons whatsoever” “outdated”. Is there any valid reason for this, like outdated equipment increasing illegal arm deals, being left for foreign/hostile entities, requiring excessive manpower to maintain? Military industrial corruption seems more likely, it just seems like there should at least be an argument to justify it?
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Mar 5, 2024 18:50
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Cold War equipment in War Stores, even if worn out and “obsolete” is still better than not actually having any of the new high tech stuff that rendered the whole idea of “35mm AA guns” and “any antitank weapons whatsoever” “outdated”. I mean there are whole forums on SA who declared the appearance of Russian T-62s and T-55s to be the sign of the Ukrainian Ever Invinicble Army's inevitable victory. I bet if you asked around the milhist scene and professional scene in the West they're all dreaming of Abrams and Leopard tank aces scything through helpless Ork tanks while declaring the Lostarmour DB entries to be Russian propaganda.
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Mar 5, 2024 19:12
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BillsPhoenix posted:Is there any valid reason for this, like outdated equipment increasing illegal arm deals, being left for foreign/hostile entities, requiring excessive manpower to maintain? It's all axiomatic. Newer = Better. "Obsolete" (in theory) = Useless (in practice). Storage = Waste. I think it's because the MIC markets using the same language of every other industry and everybody just assumes high tech stuff is better on an almost metaphysical level. So, because a company is promising something better than 35mm guns, having antiaircraft guns at all is obsolete. Because the MANPADs are old, and the MIC is offering newer, better ones, it's not even worth holding onto the existing inventory unless and until the newer ones are actually in soldiers' hands. I think Zeppelin Insanity nailed it: If you needed X, you would have it. If you don't have it, by definition it means you don't need them. With the added layer that Y existing - even in theory - means there is no reason to have X, because you'll just get Y when you need it. If you haven't been exposed to the marketing, it's all poo poo like this. The worst thing is, the loving people in procurement wake up and see the world fresh every day, because they clearly don't remember that everything is promised to be the Next Gen solution that makes everything else obsolete, and I don't think I've seen any of this poo poo actually enter service and be useful. Certainly not be useful and available in any quantity - looking at Excalibur. In theory, it made "dumb" 155mm obsolete overnight. Nevermind all of the reasons that's not true, even in theory. But, supposing that was the case, inventory was cut way back, because we have magical shells now. Only, they're not as good as was promised, and there's hardly any of them. So...? Wouldn't it have better to do what we had been doing? No, because "dumb" shells were "obsolete", so you can't like... go back, or something? I don't know, but it happens with every one of these things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs-FQ2jz9xM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vftDTZChRQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vftDTZChRQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfF52zBzr6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwjcayPuag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DXpPmpmcak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xaeyf1mT4sg DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 19:26 on Mar 5, 2024 |
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Mar 5, 2024 19:19
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We're running Air Defence Artillery Gunner and ADA Officer courses with no equipment to train on this year, essentially sidelining guys' careers upon enlistment/commission. They want to run like 3 serials of each this year. That means there will be almost 300 people who have no actual job to do in the military, because they were trained in a blackboard course, talking about theory and doctrine* - that is all hypothetical, because they deemed the existing doctrine obsolete along with ADATS, Javelin and 35mm** - with no way to test it, no actual training, no actual unit to be assigned to, though they'll be dumped on 4 RCA**. Because, there's a recognition that Someone Should Do Something, because the Russians obviously have fixed wing, rotary and unmanned AirPower, but... that's it. That's as far as it went. When we need air defence to actually equip these guys with, we'll just have it. I mean, I feel bad for them, but I also spent the first year of my career in limbo because they retired ADATS literally as I joined, so I was diverted to Field Artillery... which was retiring the M109... so we would have M777, someday...? Then I trained on LG1, which we were running out of parts for because 105mm was "obsolete" and Nexter had diverted all production to CAESAR... so..? Each of the existing weapons: ADATS, M109, LG1 could be incredibly useful if they were making new ones, or making new systems that replicated the capabilities 1:1 instead of "innovating", and moreover, any one of them would have been more useful than having nothing, dooming someone to float around the artillery school reading books for no discernible purpose. * and that's all very interesting for Captains and Majors to do at CFC and CADTC, and obviously at RCAS too but, what the gently caress are we doing running serials for people who just joined the army? There's no point in doing the free association, blue sky, theoretical course on air defence if there is no operational AD unit for them to actually... you know... do the job of 2lts and gunners in. ** the equipment is obsolete (old, wasn't maintained, was ditched because it wasn't useful in Afghanistan), therefore, everything we think we know about using weapons against aircraft needs to be innovated for next gen solutions to future proof the 21st century battle space  ** Which is where they dumped all of the UAVs and sensors DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 19:31 on Mar 5, 2024 |
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Mar 5, 2024 19:26
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:dooming someone to float around the artillery school reading books for no discernible purpose. 
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Mar 5, 2024 19:30
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It's funny because I remember literally being taught in primary school that just because something is more expensive it doesn't mean it's better.
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Mar 5, 2024 19:31
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Orange Devil posted:It's funny because I remember literally being taught in primary school that just because something is more expensive it doesn't mean it's better. Better for whom
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Mar 5, 2024 19:35
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Orange Devil posted:It's funny because I remember literally being taught in primary school that just because something is more expensive it doesn't mean it's better. Someone explained this better in either this thread or the Ukraine thread, but the idea that money is power has vaporized people's brains when they try to apply that logic to the military. They really do believe that GDP is the same as national strength, because you can just buy military power. You give a trillion dollars to LockMart and then... you win. How much they make of anything, how long it takes to deliver, if it's even good, like basically doesn't enter into it. It's spreadsheet thinking, but, idk my brain can't tap into it. I think the people who came up with the RMA in the 70's-80's were kind of bullshitting because they saw the military balance with Warsaw Pact. Reagan and Thatcher required, on an ideological level, that NATO was militarily superior, so these guys promised the moon to them, that somehow, qualitative superiority - which really only meant more expensive - would guarantee that NATO would have an advantage if only the projected equipment for the 80's, 90's, The Year Two Thousand was funded. Then 1991 really pushed this into overdrive, and everybody believed the hype, even though the armies that defeated the Iraqis were actually not fielding the new equipment of the RMA in most cases - the Marines went to Iraq with M60s, only 7% of munitions used were smart, etc. But now, it doesn't matter how many times this has proven to be a worse military system than the 1970's in, arguably, most ways other than communications and certain types of sensors, people take the RMA stuff as gospel, instead of failure after failure for 20 years. Here's where I hit kind of my intellectual and theoretical ceiling, but probably one of you is better equipped to handle it: I don't think the so-called Revolution in Military Affairs is unrelated to either neoconservatism or neoliberalism, the timing is too similar to be coincidental, and all three refer to the others, but I can't really prove it because I don't know why that would be. Obviously the belief in technological dominance is a bit part of the sales pitch for neoconservatism, Max Boot's insane book War Made New is worth reading to know how these people think. I think the relationship to neoliberalism must have something to do with the idea that producing things isn't just unnecessary, it's almost dirty. Idk. People who believe in all 3 things run the world though, so maybe someone should look into that.
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Mar 5, 2024 19:43
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Someone explained this better in either this thread or the Ukraine thread, but the idea that money is power has vaporized people's brains when they try to apply that logic to the military. btw this same thing applies to, quite literally, everything. money is an abstract representation of value, but in late financialized capitalist economies, the abstract representation is reified: Number is the value, not the material things it represents. we spend the most on healthcare? best healthcare system we spend the most on housing? best housing in the world we spend the most money on election propaganda? clearly, this is the best and most representative of all possible democracies you can't fight this inside the political economy we have now because the rules are set by number; we built ourselves a skynet to kill us all and didn't even need ai to do it.
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Mar 5, 2024 19:50
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Hubbert posted:and for everyone taking notes at home, the past two pages are why the us will lose ww3 cspam does Deadlist Warrior
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Mar 5, 2024 20:04
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:dooming someone to float around the artillery school reading books for no discernible purpose. welcome to real academia, motherfuckers
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Mar 5, 2024 20:11
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:
i think it all comes down to the priorities that the people involved have MIC used to be a military only concerned with Winning would have individuals who knew how to convert other things into Winning go out and tap companies only concerned with Profit to make materials for Winning, they were willing to pay any amount to win, so companies chased that heavily then the people they paid got too paid and started to influence who got hired to convert government funds into winning & replaced them with people who convert government funds into profit for those companies, where instead of it being "we have a military demand, satisfy it" they're hitting them up going "here's all of the money, come up with a profitable excuse for why it had to go here " bing bong 1-of-25 artisanal collectors manpads like every single area of the military's had someone trying to break into it to make money since ww2 and once they get in they don't leave and they've gotten into everything at this point i think there was a tipping point around the gulf war marketing where they surpassed the actual military influence altogether within the military and outside of it and there hasn't been a conflict demanding enough to force things to be more honest pretty much, everyone still thinks they can get their cut without it breaking the machine & they convince themselves it's an invincible god so they don't feel guilty about technically committing treason/sabotage for money
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Mar 5, 2024 20:14
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FirstnameLastname posted:then the people they paid got too paid and started to influence who got hired to convert government funds into winning & replaced them with people who convert government funds into profit for those companies, Well, that seems to encapsulate it, doesn't it?
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Mar 5, 2024 20:19
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Hatebag posted:it would be funny if stealth actually worked and then you'd have a bunch of stealth jets dogfighting with their machine guns No, they'll transform into robot forms and fight with their fists.
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Mar 5, 2024 20:19
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https://twitter.com/Nostrom0/status/1764767928812007863
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Mar 5, 2024 20:33
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Well, that seems to encapsulate it, doesn't it? i think concepts like "market disruption" also came into play which is funny because when you're disrupting your own country's arms markets it almost becomes economic civil warfare fought by destroying the supply of effective but unprofitable military equipment, all through market forces capitalism defangs militaries like AIDS ruins immune systems
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Mar 5, 2024 20:43
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There needs to be a money effectiveness factor coefficient index Like Money to buy food: 100% effectiveness To buy food during disaster: 10% To improve national infrastructure in a poor country: 100% In a rich country: 20% To improve national Olympic standing: 20% To improve world cup standing: 2% To win a war: 5% Money doesn't do diddly squat to help you win a war!
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Mar 5, 2024 21:03
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The purpose of money is to convert wealth into an easy to steal form.
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Mar 5, 2024 21:07
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