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Magic Hate Ball posted:Writing was not Frank Herbert's strong suit. no! the shut in libertarian sci fi guy definitely has a good sense of the rhythm of human conversation
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Mar 5, 2024 19:11
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Talk without rhythm in the desert fashion
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Mar 5, 2024 19:18
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Bright Bart posted:Is Christopher Walken somehow much more charismatic and beloved than it seems? Did they need a weak emperor and saw that Paul would not be that? Or did they accept that the emps was garbage but went 'Me now. Now me emperor! Not Paul. Me!'? Atreides is rear end in a top hat. Why Harkonnens hate?
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Mar 5, 2024 19:23
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I dont think you really need to justify why a bunch of powerful people would fight against bending the knee to some young dude who took over everything thru a surprise attack
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Mar 5, 2024 19:32
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Shageletic posted:I dont think you really need to justify why a bunch of powerful people would fight against bending the knee to some young dude who took over everything thru a surprise attack
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Mar 5, 2024 19:36
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disposablewords posted:The point being that it wouldn't be some "goon rewrite" you're disparaging for Paul to make it clear to Chani what's up. The ambiguity is the rewrite. I mean Frank would definitely have had stairs in his house, but fair enough he got there first
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Mar 5, 2024 19:48
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Within the context of the movie (so not the books) it seems reasonable to me that the Landsraad's first response would be "no, we don't recognise you as Emperor". House Atreides has been comprehensively destroyed, then a bunch of religious fanatics use nukes to kill a bunch of Harkonnens and Sardaukar, kill the Baron and the Emperor, so the whole situation is very much up in the air. The Fremen Messiah has just declared himself to be the Duke of a dead house but we already know that a title doesn't mean much if you can't back it up, and as far as they're aware the Fremen could be on their last legs, bluffing for both the spice and the Empire - meanwhile there's an entire armada in the skies above them, and even if the Emperor and the Houses were bastards, they're probably not super inclined to pledge allegiance and give complete control of the spice to people who could turn out to be immeasurably worse. There's absolutely no guarantee that things would return to business as usual, even if it's not a bluff Unfortunately since the spacer guild and politics and the logistics of empire got all ripped out of the movies there are a lot of missing pieces to just guess at, but within the movie those missing pieces (for me at least) point more to- why the gently caress did Paul think he could just replace the Emperor, and failing that, that he could defeat the other houses in space? But there's like a few seconds of the Fremen hurrying into a bunch of spaceships and off you go, I guess.. maybe Shai-Hulud can breathe in space, I dunno
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Mar 5, 2024 19:56
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Really curious to see how space battles work in this universe, or maybe the ships just board each other and its hand to hand fighting all the way down
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Mar 5, 2024 20:07
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boofhead posted:(for me at least) point more to- why the gently caress did Paul think he could just replace the Emperor Hahaha. Yeah. Because I too fault Paul for that counting on it. (In fact I often cringe and/or laugh when a story is resolved by the person who kills the tyrant king becoming the new king because why would that work in a formal feudal society.) But he's not only in the right. And he's not only defeated the emperor. He controls what the universe's functioning depends on. He's the head of the house which got so popular the emperor had to take it out in the first place. Not a given, but I think maybe yeah there's the question why wouldn't they accept the disgraced leader's abdication in favour of the his individually most powerful deputy.
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Mar 5, 2024 20:16
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Westwood had the best Dune II, imo, and Emperor: Battle for Dune is the best sequel to the original.
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Mar 5, 2024 20:16
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Panzeh posted:Westwood had the best Dune II, imo, and Emperor: Battle for Dune is the best sequel to the original. The soundtrack is an all timer - I occasionally listen to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQADZeB-z8M I wish house Ordos was real.
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Mar 5, 2024 20:25
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Roman Reigns posted:Really curious to see how space battles work in this universe, or maybe the ships just board each other and its hand to hand fighting all the way down Shai-Hulud in the torpedo tubes and a bunch of Fedaykin holding their breaths
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Mar 5, 2024 20:26
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They launched atomics at the start of the raid, right? That should have confirmed Atrades involvement, and backed up Paul's threat to the fleet.
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Mar 5, 2024 20:33
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Yeah, you can see three of them fly overhead. I can only assume they work differently to our nukes of today as there didn't seem to be a risk of any radioactive fallout.
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Mar 5, 2024 20:36
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Carpet posted:Yeah, you can see three of them fly overhead. I can only assume they work differently to our nukes of today as there didn't seem to be a risk of any radioactive fallout. Which is weird because in one of Pauls visions Chani's face is irradiated.
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Mar 5, 2024 20:56
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So what does Paul accomplish by marrying the emperor's daughter if nobody outside that room recognizes his claim to the throne regardless? Just good to have someone who knows their way around the estate?"
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Mar 5, 2024 21:00
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General Dog posted:So what does Paul accomplish by marrying the emperor's daughter if nobody outside that room recognizes his claim to the throne regardless? Just good to have someone who knows their way around the estate?" He gains a claim at all.
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Mar 5, 2024 21:03
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Vintersorg posted:Which is weird because in one of Pauls visions Chani's face is irradiated. That's what threw me - It's filmed exactly like the vision, only nothing happens to his face.
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Mar 5, 2024 21:08
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Bright Bart posted:
It's pretty much all lost in the sequel movie, which is the main problem I have with it. But: in the book there is a delicate balance of power between the emperor The Guild and the great houses. The Guild has Monopoly on space travel and requires an enormous amount of spice, the emperor has the most powerful single military, and the great houses individually are weaker than the emperor but together could theoretically defeat him. The emperor deals with the balance of power by rotating control of Dune so that the whole empire shares in the spice profits and Monopoly on trade. No one house can be allowed unilateral control of Dune, and the emperor also cannot be allowed unilateral control of Dune, because anyone in that position could seize control of the spacing Guild and therefore the Galaxy. That is at least in theory. Dune part 1 does a better job of explaining through dialogue that this status quo has lost legitimacy and the only thing really keeping anyone in check is the threat of force. Nobody believes in the value of going to the space Parliament to complain for example. Only military conflict is a realistic path to getting what they want. As noted at the beginning of part two, nobody lifts a finger to respond to the massacre of the Atreides. The guild, the baron, and the emperor screw up massively in the long run with their plot against the Atreides. By putting a charismatic leader on dune they create the situation that the system has been avoiding for the last 10,000 years: a hegemonic military force gaining control of the most important resource in the galaxy. In the book once Paul has military control of Dune it's pretty much over. He is in a position to make himself a tyrant. Because he has control over the spice, he has control over space travel. His enemies can acquiesce to the Atreides Empire or starve while they wait for his armies to arrive to defeat them in detail.
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Mar 5, 2024 21:31
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The book makes it clear that Paul "only" nukes a mountain out of the way so that his worms can get through to the Emperor. I can't remember if the movie does the same
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Mar 5, 2024 21:40
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moths posted:That's what threw me - It's filmed exactly like the vision, only nothing happens to his face. I think that's Dunc 3 payoff
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Mar 5, 2024 21:42
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Really hope that Dune 3 has Paul saying "Hitler? 6 mil? I did 6 mil last Tuesday" like in the book just to drive the point home as absolutely hard as possible
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Mar 5, 2024 21:45
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ns for the 70mm 
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Mar 5, 2024 21:54
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Famethrowa posted:ns for the 70mm same 
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Mar 5, 2024 22:12
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Arglebargle III posted:It's pretty much all lost in the sequel movie, which is the main problem I have with it. But: in the book there is a delicate balance of power between the emperor The Guild and the great houses. The Guild has Monopoly on space travel and requires an enormous amount of spice, the emperor has the most powerful single military, and the great houses individually are weaker than the emperor but together could theoretically defeat him. The emperor deals with the balance of power by rotating control of Dune so that the whole empire shares in the spice profits and Monopoly on trade. See, this is where I get confused. Why would the other houses be ok with "Well, the emperor rotated control of Dune from Harkonnen to the Atreides. Harkonnen have had Dune for the past 80 or so years so it was due. Wait, the Harkonnen didn't follow the forms and just launched a sneak attack instead, wiping out the Atreides and retaking control of the planet? The emperor needs to unfuck this situation immediately and at least give control of Dune to some other great house."
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Mar 5, 2024 22:25
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Because they have no allegiance to the great convention besides the profits it brings, no guarantee that the emperor won't crush them and no faith that their allies will come to their aid. It's the end of an empire. Leto says as much in the first film, the great houses are degenerate. Imagine a chivalrous noble society that tolerates the Harkonnen as peers of the realm. The Imperium has no juice.
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Mar 5, 2024 22:30
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Bright Bart posted:Why exactly do the other houses refuse to accept Paul? They have to for plot reasons, but is it explained in the books? In the book, they accept Paul as emperor.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:02
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Cimber posted:See, this is where I get confused. Why would the other houses be ok with "Well, the emperor rotated control of Dune from Harkonnen to the Atreides. Harkonnen have had Dune for the past 80 or so years so it was due. Wait, the Harkonnen didn't follow the forms and just launched a sneak attack instead, wiping out the Atreides and retaking control of the planet? The emperor needs to unfuck this situation immediately and at least give control of Dune to some other great house." As House Atreides was defeated so quickly and thoroughly, all of the other Houses weren't willing to go to war for a House that no longer existed. Also, they didn't know that the Emperor was involved. Of course, they probably didn't want to know that the Emperor was involved, so as to have a good reason to stay out of the whole thing. chime_on posted:In the book, they accept Paul as emperor.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:07
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It's not explained lol they just go and jihad everyone
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Mar 5, 2024 23:15
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DTurtle posted:The mutual defense pact was only against attacks by the Emperor. Every House had to be able to defend themselves alone (or with separate alliances) against other Houses. Right, I get that they wouldn't want to launch a war because the forms were not followed, but I would expect them to be pretty pissed that the Harkonnen launched a war to retake Dune after they have had it for so long and then get to keep control of it. That would be a significant threat to ever other great house, because what would stop the Harkonnen from attacking _any_ other house now that the Atreides were out of the way? That would make them de facto rules of the galaxy since they continue to control Dune and essentially overruled Imperial prerogative. I would have at least expected other houses to demand that the Emperor remove them and put someone else in their place.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:19
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moths posted:That's what threw me - It's filmed exactly like the vision, only nothing happens to his face. The vision he has doesn't match up to the shots of him watching the atomics; it matches to the shots of Chani watching Sietch Tabr being destroyed in the distance. Her face is burned, but whether those burns are radiation burns is a matter of interpretation. I took the burns as more metaphor than literal vision--the destruction of Sietch Tabr scars and hardens Chani. Cimber posted:See, this is where I get confused. Why would the other houses be ok with "Well, the emperor rotated control of Dune from Harkonnen to the Atreides. Harkonnen have had Dune for the past 80 or so years so it was due. Wait, the Harkonnen didn't follow the forms and just launched a sneak attack instead, wiping out the Atreides and retaking control of the planet? The emperor needs to unfuck this situation immediately and at least give control of Dune to some other great house." Aside from the Emperor's secret involvement, the Harkonnen's followed the forms precisely. They sent the proper public declarations of vengeance and took care of business in one night with no apparent survivors. You can presume other houses immediately begin scheming against the Harkonnens, but there's two things standing in the way of a united effort against them: 1, the Harkonnens are cleary incredibly powerful if they can off the Atreides in a single night, and they're not without allies of their own, so openly going against them is a dangerous proposition. 2, the Landsraad is just an incredibly paranoid power structure, and the one guy who had success cutting through all that paranoid just got killed along with his entire house.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:54
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plus the Harks had to pay most of their wealth for the invasion and now they have to garrison Arrakis and SQUEEZE it. so they're busy for the foreseeable future.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:56
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DTurtle posted:What leads to the Jihad in the book if they accepted him as emperor? I can't remember. the sand people get too excited about their messiah and go on an unstoppable space crusade
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Mar 5, 2024 23:58
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Roman Reigns posted:Really curious to see how space battles work in this universe, or maybe the ships just board each other and its hand to hand fighting all the way down Alright, don't kick my rear end. Does everyone agree to not kick my rear end? The Holtzman effect is a consistent game changer and space battles used flickering shields to fire outwards. I think disruptors were the name of superweapons used in the prequels. During the war against the machines, the other major gamechanger was space-folding, which erased the necessity to battle anywhere else than your target's base. So by the time of Dune's chronology, the best weapon is just transporting where you please and taking the fight there. Space is irrelevant once folded. That said, I'm a little foggy so if anyone rips on me for this answer just defer to the guy ripping on me.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:07
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Magic Hate Ball posted:the sand people get too excited about their messiah and go on an unstoppable space crusade
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Mar 6, 2024 00:07
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DTurtle posted:Ok, that is so dumb that I'm glad the movie didn't do that and instead had the other Great Houses declare war. I'm going to double check when I get home, but iirc in the novel they were prevented from declaring war because the guild navigators wouldn't support attacking the guy who had a monopoly on spice
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Mar 6, 2024 00:18
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Magic Hate Ball posted:the sand people get too excited about their messiah and go on an unstoppable space crusade Mind you, i haven't read the other books, but how exactly is that going to work? The Fremen are great warriors on Arrakis, yeah, but once they are off their native soil how well are things going to go for them? They don't have the home dune advantage after all.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:20
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Yeah, that's grade A dumb
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Mar 6, 2024 00:21
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 I’m here to be an ally to your cause  (Does 23 and me)  Find out you’re part Hitler Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 00:32
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Cimber posted:Mind you, i haven't read the other books, but how exactly is that going to work? The Fremen are great warriors on Arrakis, yeah, but once they are off their native soil how well are things going to go for them? They don't have the home dune advantage after all. they have F A I T H jesus christ did you even watch the movie???
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Mar 6, 2024 00:32
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