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I think you hear similar things from a lot of actors playing villains, where to some degree they internalize their motivations and are the heroes of their own story. Quark and Garak are much more successful examples of fairly negative characters that appear sympathetic enough for you to lose track of their villainous aspects which for the most part they are unrepentant for. With Dukat I think the writers and showrunners themselves were waffling on him, which there's some internal reports of as well. At least until a specific point where they flushed nuance out the window and set him on the path to shooting lasers in hell. I think there is even some ambiguity to the scale of how bad Cardassian occupation and the running of Terok Nor was until later in the show. There's definitely some confusion baked into the fact that the premise for Odo's character is being a really good and fair cop during a militarized occupation and his best friend was a terrorist. I can imagine ways that him being fair and just could bring him into some kind of righteous conflict with the Cardassian forces, but that's never really presented by the show itself. Atlas Hugged posted:Season 3's thesis seems to be "it's ok to commit crimes against humanity if 9/11". Well they didn't commit many of their crimes against humans. Although even if you overlook the obvious influence of 9/11, you can see Star Trek as a whole being on that path from the way that the 90s shows played around with moral ambiguity and crises justifying harsh action.
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Mar 5, 2024 15:36
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Atlas Hugged posted:Season 3's thesis seems to be "it's ok to commit crimes against humanity if 9/11".
Archer grows into Federation values during S3. He may still be sort of an rear end, but it's a whole season of him growing from what might be an early 21st Century human to a man of tomorrow. I'll go so far as to say that S3 as a whole is (barely) a good season of Trek, certainly better than most of Voyager, even before adding NuTrek to the average to drag it down. It's not perfect -- far from to -- but it has to be viewed in its entirety and understood as a character arc, not just a story arc. And this is just talking about Archer; it's not even getting into the other characters, who can be delightful on occasion (admit it, you love Trip, it's OK, he's engineered that way, like a poodle or something), or into the start of Trek serialization, for which we had been crying out for nigh on years.
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Mar 5, 2024 17:35
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This stuff is why I never really complain all that much about Dukat's overt transformation into an evil villain. The timing could've been better, but I'm just glad it happened at all. There's a time for nuance and a time to unmask people's true character and tell the audience "when you see somebody like this in real life, here's what's really going on".
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Mar 5, 2024 18:56
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Apollodorus posted:The interview with him from What We Left Behind is essentially the same, and borderline creepy to watch. It's worth noting that he's one of the few cast members that they didn't interview for the documentary. They used archival footage from the DVD sets.
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Mar 5, 2024 20:12
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Admiralty Flag posted:Season 3 I'd agree with all of this. Season 3 may start out as Ugly Americans in Space, but it thankfully doesn't end there. Its biggest problem is that the Ugly Americans part of the season lasts a little too long, and that, as others have noted, it relies on Archer being Admiral Adama Lite, which is a hard note for Scott Bakula to hit. Admiralty Flag posted:(admit it, you love Trip, it's OK, he's engineered that way, like a poodle or something) If you don't have room in your heart for Chief Engineer Florida Man, I don't know what to say to you.
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Mar 5, 2024 21:19
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I guess the furthest Enterprise went was when they stranded some fellow travelers in Xindi space in order to continue their quest, and that was just bad. They tried justifying the other steps along the line, or at least stepping back from the opportunity to do the worst things, but that was just the Enterprise crew resorting to banditry. There may have been a couple okay episodes in season 3 that didn't have to do with the hunt for the Xindi, but for the most part, I think everybody kinda regretted the whole Xindi plot, and they ritually sacrificed the soldier man in the end as penance so that nobody in the series would have to mention the Xindi ever again. Enterprise is the result of an altered timeline polluted by the time war anyways.
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Mar 5, 2024 22:23
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I remember being really stoked about season 3 at first but then it ran out of steam and the random TNG rehash plots they threw in felt completely out of place. Probably should've just done a half-season arc, there wasn't enough meat on those bones.
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Mar 5, 2024 22:47
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think you hear similar things from a lot of actors playing villains, where to some degree they internalize their motivations and are the heroes of their own story. Quark and Garak are much more successful examples of fairly negative characters that appear sympathetic enough for you to lose track of their villainous aspects which for the most part they are unrepentant for. that people fondly remember quark—the religious conservative hypercapitalist sexist bigot who never saw a boot he wasnt willing to lick—is a wonder and a testament to the performance from armin shimmerman
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Mar 5, 2024 22:58
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Quark was always portrayed as being in the wrong when he was being hypercapitalist, which is more than I can say for Odo and his fascism.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:30
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They never punished Quark for hijacking the entirety station and nearly getting Jadzia killed. That seemed like a big hole that was just never resolved. Also, last night I watched "Chosen Realm" and my first instinct is that it's just a worse "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", but with religious fanaticism instead of being colored white and black on the wrong sides. The best part was when the religious leader called out Archer for his bullshit and use of torture and Archer had to mumble his way through a justification for putting a man in an airlock. gently caress you Archer, you zealot. Trip is the best though and we could have had two! I'm sure there are other ways to revive a brain damaged engineer than just harvesting a clone's brain.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:22
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Squizzle posted:that people fondly remember quark—the religious conservative hypercapitalist sexist bigot who never saw a boot he wasnt willing to lick—is a wonder and a testament to the performance from armin shimmerman As far as I’m aware, Armin Shimerman is an excellent actor who doesn’t actually believe in any of that poo poo, so it’s much easier to like him about.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:43
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I feel like a two Trips scenario would be like having two John Crichtons and we all know how that worked out.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:46
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^^^ Poor Aeryn.  Admiralty Flag posted:Season 3 has this reputation, not wholly unearned as "24 in space." But during the season, just off the top of my head from my one time watching it several years ago: These are good points. ENT S3 is better than all but the best of VOY. Maybe I should try watching it again. Archer's petulance and the season being 4-6 episodes too long stick most in my mind. I remember thinking, "give the angry post-9/11 petulance to Trip! He has a more specific reason for it, and his actor is better at it!" I also remember at least a few episodes that are like, why are we doing this? That season should have been 16 eps if they weren't in the obligatory ~24 episode season model of network TV at the time.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:58
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Arivia posted:As far as I’m aware, Armin Shimerman is an excellent actor who doesn’t actually believe in any of that poo poo, so it’s much easier to like him about. Shimmerman is an ardent pro-labor leftist, and was the chair of SAG for a bit. So he is way easier to like given the irony of his character's politics.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:02
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Timby posted:It's worth noting that he's one of the few cast members that they didn't interview for the documentary. They used archival footage from the DVD sets. Really? It felt like he was in the same place doing the same stuff as the other interviewees
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Mar 6, 2024 01:19
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Admiralty Flag posted:Season 3 has this reputation, not wholly unearned as "24 in space." But during the season, just off the top of my head from my one time watching it several years ago: All of this is true, however part of the problem is that most of these moments of realization and growth for Archer happen in the last 7-8 episodes of the season, so you’ve still spent most of the arc with Archer being this abrasive piece of poo poo Bush-era “hard man making hard choices”. The earliest of those examples iirc, the fake shuttle in Strategem, does happen at about the halfway point of the season but it’s less that Archer realizes what they (the NX crew) are doing is inherently wrong and more that he just realizes they can sway and manipulate Degra in a different way. I do agree that the season’s reputation as Star Trek 24 is overblown, but it’s not an argument that’s totally without merit. I like Enterprise, but season 3 gets really grating and tedious as it goes on because nearly every character aboard the ship becomes the worst version of themselves over time. They aren’t really characters you still root for by season’s end because they’ve spent almost an entire season being pieces of poo poo, even if they do somewhat redeem themselves in the final hours.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:52
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edit: ^^^ That's a completely fair point. Again, the problem of having to fill a whole season with this story arc. If the NX-01 crew had found their better angels sooner, could they have made 26 or however many episodes work? Maybe a couple of eps dealing with their long-lasting impacts on the Xindi sector (the name of the expanse is slipping my mind right now)? Retooling Xindi society? Finding those guys they stole from? I don't know. Railing Kill posted:ENT S3 is better than all but the best of VOY. Maybe I should try watching it again. Archer's petulance and the season being 4-6 episodes too long stick most in my mind. I remember thinking, "give the angry post-9/11 petulance to Trip! He has a more specific reason for it, and his actor is better at it!" I also remember at least a few episodes that are like, why are we doing this? That season should have been 16 eps if they weren't in the obligatory ~24 episode season model of network TV at the time. There are parts of S3 that are straight-up garbage, I won't deny that (the recently-referenced piracy that's never addressed again is a big contender; huge dangling plot line and moral thread), but I think S3 suffers unfairly by comparison to S4 (which is, true, superior in so many ways) and from meming ("24 in space!") & oversimplification. It's been close to a decade since I watched Enterprise front-to-back. Maybe I'll put it in queue. Have to find a watchlist for S1 & S2 though; even I won't try to defend those as a whole. Admiralty Flag fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 02:04
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Railing Kill posted:Shimmerman is an ardent pro-labor leftist, and was the chair of SAG for a bit. So he is way easier to like given the irony of his character's politics.
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Mar 6, 2024 02:39
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It’s kinda funny that all this character growth they kept trying to show with Archer almost happened by accident in a much better way with Trip. Trip is just as xenophobic and speciesist(?) at the beginning of the show, but fairly early on gets over it and becomes genuinely earnest in his curiosity and appreciation for most alien cultures. The Vulcans continue to be a hang-up for him and the Xindi are definitely a step backwards, but iirc Trip of all people actually takes a stance toward the end of season 3 that this revenge mission just isn’t right or worth it and clashes with Archer over it to an extent. Trip really should’ve been the loving Captain from the start.
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Mar 6, 2024 02:43
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Sounds a bit like a replay of Pulaski, where a character starts out pretty bigoted and gradually becomes better.
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Mar 6, 2024 02:45
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i think if they really wanted ENTS3 to work they shoulda looped the NX-02 into the Xindi expedition, captained by a Hard Man Makin Hard Choices and who is formally in charge of both ships. That displaces the need for Archer to be a prick onto another character that Archer can contrast favorably with. At some point early on the NX-02 eats it, ideally by virtue of being such pricks. Then its just the NX-01 to save earth with, no backup.
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Mar 6, 2024 02:49
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:i think if they really wanted ENTS3 to work they shoulda looped the NX-02 into the Xindi expedition, captained by a Hard Man Makin Hard Choices and who is formally in charge of both ships. That displaces the need for Archer to be a prick onto another character that Archer can contrast favorably with. At some point early on the NX-02 eats it, ideally by virtue of being such pricks. Then its just the NX-01 to save earth with, no backup. Thank god BSG didn't get around to the Pegasus arc until later because ENT trying to ape it would have been loving painful.
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Mar 6, 2024 02:50
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LividLiquid posted:Quark was always portrayed as being in the wrong when he was being hypercapitalist, which is more than I can say for Odo and his fascism. Quark thought he was old school, because the system mostly benefitted him, but then they'd roll out Brunt and Quark would quickly realize that both the system didn't really benefit him, and he wasn't as Hardline as he claimed to be.
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Mar 6, 2024 02:51
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Big Mean Jerk posted:It’s kinda funny that all this character growth they kept trying to show with Archer almost happened by accident in a much better way with Trip. Trip is just as xenophobic and speciesist(?) at the beginning of the show, but fairly early on gets over it and becomes genuinely earnest in his curiosity and appreciation for most alien cultures. I can't claim this joke, but i've seen Trip's arc described as going from "😡 Goddamn Vulcans" to "😍 God drat Vulcans"
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Mar 6, 2024 03:00
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Arivia posted:As far as I’m aware, Armin Shimerman is an excellent actor who doesn’t actually believe in any of that poo poo, so it’s much easier to like him about. I've never understood why so many people out there seem to expect actors to be anything like their characters, except of course for a certain physical similarity. Yes, actors absolutely do bring pieces of themselves into a character, and in turn the character can impress themselves on the actor -- Leonard Nimoy has famously written a couple of books about how difficult it was to stop "being" Spock after the cameras stopped and he went home. But in the end... an actor is just someone who's particularly good at giving the impression that they're someone else, usually via saying lines they didn't write. It's fun to point out the little ironies like the Grand Nagus being an avowed lefty in real life, or Barclay being a howling chud. But there's really no reason to have had any expectations otherwise.
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Mar 6, 2024 03:11
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Fighting Trousers posted:I can't claim this joke, but i've seen Trip's arc described as going from "😡 Goddamn Vulcans" to "😍 God drat Vulcans" That’s actually pretty good
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Mar 6, 2024 03:34
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I like that Voyager did the Pegasus arc because it really cemented that Janeway was not someone who hosed around. I don't always agree with her, but that was a lady who got results. Those results often being loving insane notwithstanding.
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Mar 6, 2024 04:24
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LividLiquid posted:Right on! I bet that's why they wrote his character in Far Beyond The Stars as they did. I’m pretty sure they gave all the actors huge amounts of leeway in defining their characters is that episode.
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Mar 6, 2024 05:21
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A.o.D. posted:Quark thought he was old school, because the system mostly benefitted him, but then they'd roll out Brunt and Quark would quickly realize that both the system didn't really benefit him, and he wasn't as Hardline as he claimed to be. And Quark's conservative attitudes seem to be more performative than anything else - he talks the talk, but when push comes to shove, he ran a black market to get food to the Bajorans during the occupation, he didn't like being an arms dealer and quit, he keeps falling for strong, rebellious women, he helps liberate DS9 from the Dominion.When push comes to shove, his instincts don't match his rhetoric, and he's far more likely to end up doing the right thing than Odo.
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Mar 6, 2024 05:33
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AlternateNu posted:I’m pretty sure they gave all the actors huge amounts of leeway in defining their characters is that episode. If I recall, each of them was based on or an homage to a golden age sci-fi author. Like, Colm Meany was Asimov, Shimmerman was Harlan Ellison, Visitor was C.L. Moore (but also a bit of a tip of the hat to D.C. Fontana), Siddig was Henry Kuttner. Brooks was at least partly inspired by Samuel Delaney. Auberjonois was John W. Campbell. And the story as a whole was possibly partly inspired by the publication of Judgement Day by EC Comics, along with other similar events. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 05:38
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MikeJF posted:If I recall, each of them was based on or an homage to a golden age sci-fi author. Like, Colm Meany was Asimov, Shimmerman was Harlan Ellison, Visitor was C.L. Moore (but also a bit of a tip of the hat to D.C. Fontana), Siddig was Henry Kuttner. Brooks was at least partly inspired by Samuel Delaney. Auberjonois was John W. Campbell. Your edit beat me to it but yeah, Pabst was a stand-in for Campbell, whose run as the editor of Astounding did a lot to shape the field of American science fiction in the mid-20th century. He really was a giant of the field to whom a lot of authors owed their big break and also a complete motherfucker who was racist, quasi-fascist, and gullible to the point of ridiculousness when it came to things like perpetual motion, free energy, psychic powers, and all kinds of other horseshit. He helped L. Ron Hubbard develop Dianetics and pushed it hard. Asimov writes in places about how much he benefited from Campbell's patronage while being uncomfortable with Campbell's tendency to push hard-man-of-science libertarian-engineer claptrap into the magazine in his editing and in what works he did and didn't buy. Asimov had more than one story reworked into being more human-chauvinist and always got the feeling that Campbell's definition of "human" was white, blonde, and square-jawed waving a red-white-and-blue flag. There's a lot more to say in particular about how Campbell pushed the well-known story "The Cold Equations" into being the controversial work it is expressly against the wishes of the author. But that's outside the scope of a Star Trek thread. Basically the portrayal of Pabst as a stand-in for Campbell in "Far Beyond the Stars" is extremely generous. E: Campbell actually did reject one of Samuel Delany's novels specifically because it had a black protagonist. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 06:09
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Angry Salami posted:And Quark's conservative attitudes seem to be more performative than anything else - he talks the talk, but when push comes to shove, he ran a black market to get food to the Bajorans during the occupation, he didn't like being an arms dealer and quit, he keeps falling for strong, rebellious women, he helps liberate DS9 from the Dominion.When push comes to shove, his instincts don't match his rhetoric, and he's far more likely to end up doing the right thing than Odo. Which is exactly why Quark is such a great character: there are so many ironies in his arc. The man who spends most of DS9 trying to be a traditional Ferengi ends up intentionally/ unintentionally being on the cutting edge of Ferengi social reforms. e: Quark isn't the only one; almost all of the main characters have ironic arcs - Kira starts off resenting Starfleet's presence and despising Cardassians, and then helps to liberate Cardassia Prime; Sisko doesn't want his assignment on DS9 and ends up becoming the Emissary; an outcast, Garak, leads the effort (with a former lickspittle to Dukat) to liberate Cardassia Prime; etc. Such a great show with rich characters. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 13:47
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Quark is the only person on that station who knows how to dress himself. E: Tongo looks like my jam and I want to play it so bad.
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Mar 6, 2024 13:52
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And that ends up being a huge running theme throughout the series. Worf, Garak, Damar, Kira, and Odo all go through some version of that as well. They start out as hard-liners, but interacting with people outside their in-group gradually causes them to question what they were taught. And in a classic bit of Trek optimism, many of them end up playing key roles in re-constructing their societies into something that works better for everyone. edit: beaten through ninja edit, but it's still true
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Mar 6, 2024 13:58
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Sir Lemming posted:And that ends up being a huge running theme throughout the series. Worf, Garak, Damar, Kira, and Odo all go through some version of that as well. They start out as hard-liners, but interacting with people outside their in-group gradually causes them to question what they were taught. And in a classic bit of Trek optimism, many of them end up playing key roles in re-constructing their societies into something that works better for everyone. "To kill her and my son... the casual brutality of it. The waste of life. What kind of state tolerates the murder of innocent women and children? What kind of people give those orders?" "Yeah, Damar, what kind of people give those orders?" It's not the tiniest bit subtle (and if the acting weren't brilliant, it would have been too heavy-handed), but every time I see that scene I'm like "yup, perfect moment, perfect encapsulation of the theme, no notes."
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Mar 6, 2024 14:15
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That might be Kira's best line in the show imo
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Mar 6, 2024 14:18
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And the "oooooh poo poo, she went there" look on Garak's face is just the icing on that scene.
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Mar 6, 2024 14:32
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No Dignity posted:That might be Kira's best line in the show imo I love how Nana plays it like Kira thinks she probably shouldn't say it, but COME ON and then it just comes out.
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Mar 6, 2024 15:21
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The way Damar responds is equally brilliant. The little nod of recognition he gives her is the beginning of his redemption.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:16
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davidspackage posted:I love how Nana plays it like Kira thinks she probably shouldn't say it, but COME ON and then it just comes out. Yeah, if she just threw the line back sarcastically, or even said it at normal volume, it wouldn't be as good. The way she lets it out in a whisper, the way she knows she shouldn't speak up but she also can't not speak up, is brilliant. (And then Damar leaves, she's immediately pissed at herself for it, and Garak just says "nope, you're right, and if that doesn't make it click for him then nothing will and we're wasting our time.") EDIT: F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:The way Damar responds is equally brilliant. The little nod of recognition he gives her is the beginning of his redemption. I just rewatched the scene because why not, and yeah, the immediate aftermath is just as good as the line. Damar flips from horrified to enraged, takes three steps in Kira's direction, and Kira, who already has the "I know I hosed up" look on her face, breaks eye contact as a way of acknowledging and apologizing. Damar gives the least perceptible nod of understanding in history in response and marches off. I don't know how much of that is Mike Vejar's direction (he's got some banger episodes on his resume) and how much is Biggs, Visitor and Robinson, but it's all fantastic. disaster pastor fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 16:48
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