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fatherboxx)
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DTurtle posted:Nothing is stopping Sweden from reimplementing an arms embargo against Turkey or staying a safe haven for Kurds. If Turkey escalates, they might even have political cover to do so. The US would have something to say to Sweden if it started trying to push Turkiye around and usurping US leadership on the priorities of NATO in the process. Protecting the Kurds are not a NATO priority, managing Hamas and Russia are.
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Mar 6, 2024 11:23
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Electric Wrigglies posted:The US would have something to say to Sweden if it started trying to push Turkiye around and usurping US leadership on the priorities of NATO in the process. Protecting the Kurds are not a NATO priority, managing Hamas and Russia are. DTurtle fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 12:00
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Electric Wrigglies posted:The US would have something to say to Sweden if it started trying to push Turkiye around and usurping US leadership on the priorities of NATO in the process. Protecting the Kurds are not a NATO priority, managing Hamas and Russia are. The USA hasn't had a really stellar recent history of unilaterally imposing its will on Europe, has it now? They had to bribe Erdogan with a heap of F16s, and it was the EU that got Orban to let Sweden in, not the USA. Then factor in the impact the right wing has had on Ukraine support and the entire planet increasingly sees the USA as an unreliable partner. So yeah, once Sweden is in, they owe Turkey nothing other than maybe a nice thank you note. This isn't just another instance of "only USA and Russia have agency, everyone else is merely a mere puppet" is it? I hope not.
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Mar 6, 2024 12:08
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Turkiye doesn't even have the agency to change its name for one, it seems. But it is always a matter of spectrum, and my point is that Sweden will now have to consult NATO priorities before it does things, which are primarily driven by US leadership (such as GWOT, Iraq and Afghanistan). Not all - US was not all that enthused by France doing its own thing in West Africa or Turkiye's support of Azerbaijani cleanout of Armenians/involvement in Libya. And don't underestimate US breath of opinion on things or range of influence it has. Despite the genocide of Palestine being quite unpopular in Australia, that the party in Government has historically been sympathetic to Palestine and otherwise events not seriously impacting Australia, the Australian government is going to some lengths to support Israel. It is by Australia's own agency that we support Israel's efforts, sure. It is on us. But we are doing it because the US wants us to. Remember, the original post was saying basically "yeah, Sweden can just undo what it did to get in no probs". I don't think that is the case.
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Mar 6, 2024 12:48
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The US obviously wields a lot of influence over its allies' foreign policies due to its immense importance as a trade and defense partner. The thing is though that remains true regardless of whether you join NATO or not (Australia hasn't). The US in some ways has even have more leverage over non-NATO allies since their defence is more up to American discretion.
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Mar 6, 2024 13:09
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I am not greatly worried about our government doing regressive things because of NATO/turkey pressure, but I am worried about our government doing regressive things because they are regressive racists, and using NATO/turkey as an excuse to spend less political capital/pretend they're less racist than the racist party.
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Mar 6, 2024 13:14
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Eric Cantonese posted:It's because he though postwar Japan had diverged too much from traditional, conservative values. It's not like he turned into a hippie. i wonder if he killed people in brazil too
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Mar 6, 2024 13:17
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mawarannahr posted:It's a shame. I wish it had not happened. As if it wasn't enough they sold out the Kurds, they were also glad to lift their arms embargo against Turkey. I do not think this was a good path for Sweden to pursue. Good luck to them. yeah, such a shame why did they join, has russia done anything lately in europe?
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Mar 6, 2024 13:22
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https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1765330512627822975 Sweden to join NATO officially on the 11th of March, we got Lake NATO 
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Mar 6, 2024 13:45
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Kikas posted:https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1765330512627822975 More accurately, that's the flag-raising ceremony. Sweden will probably become a NATO member as soon as tomorrow or on Friday. Here's a Swedish source: https://www.dn.se/direkt/2024-03-06/sverige-kan-bli-nato-medlem-i-morgon/
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Mar 6, 2024 13:58
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jesus christ that's so many red lines, we're all going to die of redlineitis
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Mar 6, 2024 14:26
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Electric Wrigglies posted:Turkiye doesn't even have the agency to change its name for one, it seems. Is there evidence of this? NATO is security/military focused and cannot enforce political decisions (or any decisions really). They of course have their weekly meetings and whatnot but I'm doubtful that there's any "duty to consult" before doing things that are sovereign political decisions like embargos. Yes, they could easily piss off the US with their decisions but that was completely possible before NATO as well and I don't see membership in NATO really changing much in that regard.
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Mar 6, 2024 15:06
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Electric Wrigglies posted:Turkiye doesn't even have the agency to change its name for one, it seems. You spelled it wrongly in any case, it's 'Türkiye'. Or, since the spelling change was apparently yet another one of Erdogan's brilliant ideas, you can just spell it Turkey to annoy his fanboys. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 15:20
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Fidelitious posted:Is there evidence of this? NATO is security/military focused and cannot enforce political decisions (or any decisions really). They of course have their weekly meetings and whatnot but I'm doubtful that there's any "duty to consult" before doing things that are sovereign political decisions like embargos. Yes, they could easily piss off the US with their decisions but that was completely possible before NATO as well and I don't see membership in NATO really changing much in that regard. Simply look at the history of NATO operations. The most relevant examples would be Afghanistan, in which every NATO member country participated, as that one was clearly about assisting USA which had been attacked, in line with article 5; and, in contrast, the invasion of Iraq was not a NATO op at all but something that was done on fraudulent premises by W Bush, and hence some NATO countries such as Germany just did not participate. In theory it will be possible for Sweden & Finland to also not participate in any bullshit non-NATO operations, when Trump decides to invade Iran or whatever the gently caress. Of course this doesn't mean that those various governments won't choose to kiss US arse and participate anyway, even if it's some morally unjustifiable poo poo op like that, similar to Iraq where many NATO countries joined in. e: added clarifying word
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Mar 6, 2024 15:27
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Some more information about Russia's recruitment tactics. https://twitter.com/umasudhir/status/1764570621391036790 Obviously, could be that they actually joined willingly and now regret it and want out, but it matches what some foreign 'contract soldiers' from other countries shared before.
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Mar 6, 2024 15:29
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Tourism of duty
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Mar 6, 2024 15:32
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Rust Martialis posted:You spelled it wrongly in any case, it's 'Türkiye'. Since when has English ever cared what a countrys name is in its own language?
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Mar 6, 2024 15:38
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jaete posted:, in contrast, the invasion of Iraq was not a NATO op at all but something that was done on fraudulent premises by W Bush, and hence some NATO countries such as Germany just did not participate. It's more than that. Germany wasn't an outlier. The list of NATO members who also invaded Iraq as part of a coalition during OIF: US, UK, Poland. e: for accuracy The list of those who didn't: every other member. Later, at the request of the Iraqi government, there was the NATO training mission Iraq, which was limited to training/advisement and not combat operations, and even then, some NATO members either did not participate at all, withdrew their participation, or their participation was something like send 4 people to advise on very banal stuff like telephone line planning or something. NATO membership cedes very little sovereignty in any concrete sense. NATO actions require consensus. Individual sovereign actions do not. Even article 5, the "an attack on one is an attack on all" gives a lot of leeway for HOW members respond to an attack. And article 6 lays out that Article 5 is geographically caged to specific areas; you can't just go out and start poo poo conflict worldwide or whine that you're losing some distant colony and then try to invoke Article 5, because Articles 4 and 6 will put a stop to that. All of that combined means that on paper, NATO membership could either be a very strong alliance or an alliance in name only depending on how members actually behave. Article 5 and 6 are taken seriously, which lends to its strength, but in the technical sense a country could decide that its response to an article 5 issue is that they'll send some excess "get well" cards in the mail when someone is attacked. CSTO is an example of a treaty organization with some similarities, though it trends toward fairly weak in practice, as the main military power, Russia, is only going to engage in collective defense when it suits Russia, specifically. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 15:41
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Xiahou Dun posted:Since when has English ever cared what a countrys name is in its own language? Türkiye is now its English name too, as accepted by the United Nations in 2022.
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Mar 6, 2024 15:47
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Zat posted:Türkiye is now its English name too, as accepted by the United Nations in 2022. The United Nations has no control over the English language, nor does English have a central controlling group, nor is that even a thing that could happen. That's like me declaring that all deer are cats now because I held a meeting at my local library and we voted on it. It doesn't mean anything.
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Mar 6, 2024 15:56
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mlmp08 posted:
Australia isn't a member of NATO.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:00
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Australia isn't a member of NATO. Yeah, derp. So 3 NATO members plus Australia.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:01
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Xiahou Dun posted:The United Nations has no control over the English language, nor does English have a central controlling group, nor is that even a thing that could happen. It's the English spelling preferred by Türkiye. No one has to use it, but it's polite to do so. Like dropping the "the" from Ukraine.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:04
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Zat posted:Türkiye is now its English name too, as accepted by the United Nations in 2022. To be extremely pedantic, english never requires an umlat, any more than it requires a Ç, or a Ğ. English is not a superset of all latin alphabets.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:06
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Deteriorata posted:It's the English spelling preferred by Türkiye. No one has to use it, but it's polite to do so. Or Kiev to Kyiv
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Mar 6, 2024 16:06
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Deteriorata posted:It's the English spelling preferred by Türkiye. No one has to use it, but it's polite to do so. Well its a spelling preferred by Turkey, but its Turkish not English. The UN and the US State Department are happy to accommodate them, but its no different from referring to Germany as Deutschland.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:08
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Haystack posted:To be extremely pedantic, english never requires an umlat, any more than it requires a Ç, or a Ğ. English is not a superset of all latin alphabets. If anything it's a subset.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:11
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Deteriorata posted:It's the English spelling preferred by Türkiye. No one has to use it, but it's polite to do so. quote:Note: The official conventional long-form and short-form names remain Republic of Turkey and Turkey, respectively. Republic of Türkiye should be used in formal and diplomatic contexts. The conventional names may be used in place of or alongside Türkiye in appropriate instances, including U.S. government cartographic products, as it is more widely understood by the American public.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:13
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Deteriorata posted:It's the English spelling preferred by Türkiye. No one has to use it, but it's polite to do so. No, not even a little bit. Using a definite article designates a region (e.g. "the midwest") as distinct from how English handles countries and most proper nouns (e.g. it's ungrammatical to say "the France" for the same reason it's ungrammatical to say "the Jeff"). It's a deeply baked in part of English grammar and you're making a strong lexical choice by how you use it with "Ukraine". You're using how English works to overtly designate your political opinion. Meanwhile the spelling of a country's name is just some historical bullshit and I'm pointing out that English doesn't give a single poo poo what a country's name is for itself, e.g. Germany, China, Japan, etc. You can do whatever you want, but from an objective standpoint it's incredibly silly unless you also only call China "Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo" and Germany "Deutschland". If you actually cared Turkey vs. Türkiye should be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list of things you'd fix.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:15
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it would actually be pretty cool if English speaking countries made an effort to use other countries' preferred names/spelling.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:19
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To use Ukraine as the example: Dropping the the was done decades ago to recognize that it was its own country, rather than a geographical region of the Soviet Union. Altering the spelling from Kiev to Kyiv was to use Ukrainian spelling rather than Russian. They both were ways of recognizing their national sovereignty. However, the English spelling of the country remains Ukraine, not Україна.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:19
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I'm calling it Constantinople 
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Mar 6, 2024 16:19
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:it would actually be pretty cool if English speaking countries made an effort to use other countries' preferred names/spelling. Right, like how everyone in Ukraine and Russia call it the "United States" and not the "Соединенные Штаты". 
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Mar 6, 2024 16:23
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Fold your wagging fingers away, calling Turkiye Turkey and vice versa is fine.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:24
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:it would actually be pretty cool if English speaking countries made an effort to use other countries' preferred names/spelling. Hey, if people want to start, I'm all over it. But they ain't. English goes out of its way to pronounce place names wrong! Listen to how most speakers say "Beijing" with the sound like in "treasure". A sound that Chinese doesn't have, but it has a normal god drat "j"* and it's in the name Beijing! *No, not really, but it's a lot closer than the ʒ
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Mar 6, 2024 16:26
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Kaal posted:but its no different from referring to Germany as Deutschland. Not really. Turkey officially changed its UN name to Türkiye in English. https://www.un.org/en/about-us/member-states/turkiye The US embassy in Turkey uses Türkiye in its English-language publications and correspondence. When the US government provides news about Turkey to Americans inside the US, it uses the term "Turkey," as that is most familiar to Americans. Germany's official name at the UN in English is Germany, or more fully, The Federal Republic of Germany. The US embassy in Germany uses the word Germany, not Deutschland. Turkey is not unique in using special characters in its English-language UN name. We also don't say "The Ivory Coast" any more.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:27
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It's normal for nations that have been in contact since times immemorial to have ancient names for each other.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:29
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Nenonen posted:I'm calling it Constantinople Byzantium
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Mar 6, 2024 16:32
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:it would actually be pretty cool if English speaking countries made an effort to use other countries' preferred names/spelling. do you think non-english countries do this a lot, or
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Mar 6, 2024 16:39
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Nenonen posted:It's normal for nations that have been in contact since times immemorial to have ancient names for each other. Russian uses Germanija for the country but they still call the people and language Nemetskij which is kind of a weird mix. Fun fact Nemetskij Nemcy and all the variants come from the old slavic word for "mute". Because these germanic peoples only spoke gibberish and didn't understand slavic, you see.
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Mar 6, 2024 16:44
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