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Lord Packinham posted:Sounds like all the people upset are the people that run solo away from their team and try to solo everything with a railgun and shield pack. i cant speak to the soloing part, but the railgun meta was boring as gently caress to me. ah yes, let me charge up and fire 1 bullet at a time and have this be the absolutely undeniable most efficient means of killing. quote:First I’d like to speak to the general power of primary weapons. Many have commented that they aren’t powerful enough and are unable to deal with all the enemies either by the amount of ammunition required or their raw DPS. This is very much intentional, you need to rely on your Stratagems, and the Stratagems of your team to deal with all the enemies effectively. Either by Eagle Airstrikes, Orbitals, Support Weapons, or Turrets, some of your loadout/team should be tailoring their loadout to killing the weaker stuff more efficiently. this is the game the developers are making, they arent making the game where your assault rifle is going to be your main source of killing things. ive used the breaker pre nerf etc and while it was good, i found it boring and simply used the defender as a main. the devs, imo, are trending in the right direction with weapon balance
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Mar 6, 2024 19:00
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Lord Packinham posted:Sounds like all the people upset are the people that run solo away from their team and try to solo everything with a railgun and shield pack. Those players are how you get full samples in 15-20 minutes on a large map.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:00
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Risky Bisquick posted:Those players are how you get full samples in 15-20 minutes on a large map. yea and that is almost assuredly a part of why that kit has been nerfed imo the devs are being 100% open & honest about their intent and direction here, ppl trying to work around that are naturally going to find that increasingly difficult in a game where its against the design philosophy
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Mar 6, 2024 19:01
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Ulio posted:I think one of the issues is, too many solo players just like doing no teamwork, taking rail gun and destroying everything by themselves. Yes if 3 chargers are chasing 1 person you hosed up massively and will pay for it. Usually even on Helldive diff if there is loads of chargers there is a huge mob surrounding an objective and you can bomb the poo poo out of the area to get chargers weakened. There are times to group up as a team, and there are times to do solo work. Any sort of objective where you will need to be in place for a period of time that is guaranteed to summon a horde (ore sampling, egg destruction, etc.) you want to be with a team. The enemies are going to come whether you like it or not, and the more hands you have shooting the less likely you are to get killed/the more options you have for taking out the inevitable hard targets that eventually show up to the battle. Sometimes though, going solo ends up allowing you to do more teamwork. If you have a loadout that allows you to obliterate outposts/hives in a minimal amount of time, you are much better off working alone because you can get in their, do your job, and gently caress off before the dinner bell summons the horde. If you're wearing Light+Stealth Armor, you can often take a lot of sub-objectives (like Radar Outposts and Artillery Stations) that help the team without even attracting a single enemy to investigate. Meanwhile, if you were paired together with doofus who decides to shoot everything that walks then taking those sub-objectives quickly and quietly gets massively harder. In that scenario, not doing it solo can actually do more harm than good.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:01
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Risky Bisquick posted:I don’t get the charger problems most people have. You can damage the frontal leg joints with any primary weapon ( BREAKER SPRAY AND PRAY WORKS NOW BABY ) You don’t need fancy rail guns for that When everyone is running heavy ordinance it's useful to be the guy kitted out to call in stratagems to take out hordes or to shut down a breach via area denial. Teamwork things and all that.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:01
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Retro42 posted:When everyone is running heavy ordinance it's useful to be the big kitted out to call in stratagems to take out hordes or to shut down a breach via area denial. Teamwork things and all that. Yeah, Orbital Airburst absolutely fucks bug bursts, bot drops, or any horde of low-tier trash. It will very easily kill 25+ enemies in a single calldown (it's insane) and the value of clearing all that trash can allow the rest of your team to focus on the big threats.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:03
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I really doubt the shield change matters much, it was only to prevent slow status. Railgun you would have to charge anyways for bile titans, and you can ignore chargers when there are less than 3. Breaker is probably the same, just not enough for 3 stalkers in one reload like before. What I’m saying is the same kit will work, just moderately worse. Retro42 posted:When everyone is running heavy ordinance it's useful to be the guy kitted out to call in stratagems to take out hordes or to shut down a breach via area denial. Teamwork things and all that. I’ve never noticed an increase in mobbing powess with the other strategems to be honest. People who say these strategems work, can you clarify if you’re playing on difficulty 4-6 or 7-8 or 9. Trying to understand the discrepancy. 4-6 has immense amounts of trash mobs for instance
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Mar 6, 2024 19:05
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it's me I'm horde-clearing stratagem guy. I kind of wish the gatling orbital had a little bit of tracking like the laser does, I think that would help it shine over the air-burst a bit. Also, the eagle strafing run either needs more uses or more shots, it's not as accurate as you'd hope it would be for something that won't kill medium armor.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:05
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GlyphGryph posted:I like fighting chargers, though. Perhaps because I play with EATs as standard kit, and EAT wrangling chargers is actually one of the most enjoyable things to do in the game. (once there's more than 3 chargers admittedly it starts becoming less fun unless I have teammates doing the same thing, and then it gets MORE fun) That's the problem, you have a play pattern with them that you like but is pretty specific, and one of the biggest complaints people have right now is lack of viable build diversity. If they are the biggest pain point in the game, and the best way to handle them is one specific tactic, then that will essentially become the only thing you can bring unless you want every mission to be a slog. I don't think anyone's saying they need to be removed or made less fun for you to fight, but the charger's business-up-front-party-in-the-back design doesn't feel like it's paying off like it should unless you're running specific things. You need to be able to take them down in a semi-reasonable amount of time with any kit, because otherwise bringing stuff specifically to deal with them becomes mandatory.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:05
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LuiCypher posted:Yeah, Orbital Airburst absolutely fucks bug bursts, bot drops, or any horde of low-tier trash. It will very easily kill 25+ enemies in a single calldown (it's insane) and the value of clearing all that trash can allow the rest of your team to focus on the big threats. My max was 38 kills on a single burst last night. Didn't realize until then that the kill counter gets deeper red the higher it gets. Edit: In response to the difficulty question, this was on 6 or 7 I believe. Retro42 fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 19:06
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Chargers are more of a pain to deal with than Bile Titans, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If you have just one Charger you can juke it, assuming you aren't getting endlessly slowed by Hunters and other chaff. Often that isn't the case because Chargers spawn with bug breaches regularly. If you have 2 or more Chargers you're basically probably going to dive into the path of one of them while trying to avoid the other. If you have 3 or more, well, hopefully you have enough stamina to run to the other side of the map I guess? I would admit that the whole 2-shot leg & unload primary was too formulaic, but people talk about this like it was a trivial thing to do in the heat of the moment. I'd suggest it isn't really, it's rare that it is a mano a mano situation with them. On the subject of support weapons - should it not be expected that they can, at a push, deal with heavy armour? If not, you're wholly reliant on stratagems that have finite charges and cooldowns, or teammates (with the same problems). I read that the Laser Cannon is better but only has medium armour penetration, so its useless for Chargers & Bile Titans (unlike the Railgun, even now). So why use it? It seems the devs are intent on making this a game where synergy between your teammates is vital - e.g. one guy brings stuff that deals with chaff, the other focuses on orbitals/heavy stuff, with neither being able to practically deal with the other. That is probably ok for tight teams, but pubbies? Good luck with that. That's not to say that I think people should be able to wander off on their own and take on everything with impunity (which is made worse by the fact that the game doesn't seem to spawn concentrations of enemies in two places on the map at once, so one guy can do objectives in relative peace and quiet) but it needs to be possible to have 2 man fireteams at least, I think. Durzel fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 19:07
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weapon buffs and nerfs don't matter because the charger is still the most unfun dogshit enemy in the game to deal with either way because there's always 5 of them active at all times on higher difficulties. i can't be bothered with bug missions anymore.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:07
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you what we need for chargers? give me a little C4 grenade. something with high armor pen but maybe you only get two or something. I can think of a lot of uses for remote detonated C4 actually
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Mar 6, 2024 19:10
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Yeah ultimately people crave a smooth and (relatively) painless way to deal with chargers simply because of the sheer volume of them on higher difficulties. Spending resources (whether that's actual in-game resources like stratagems, or just time and attention) to kill one enemy is fine when the enemy is relatively uncommon. But when you have to deal with two dozen or more of them over the course of a mission it becomes tedious and frustrating. I think the railgun definitely deserved a nerf though. I'd have liked to see the RR get a damage boost but I'll take a powerful flamethrower too
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Mar 6, 2024 19:11
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Okay now that I've played on the patch a bit the actual worst thing about it is that they've seemingly completely hosed the controls on PS5 so that whenever you call in a stratagem your weapon automatically switches to grenades for some reason. Killed myself like 3 times just on the first mission. Probably only happens if you have quick grenade and stratagem menu bound to the same button but it worked just fine before, since quick grenade is only supposed to actually do anything when you ADS.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:11
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If you get two chargers to hit each other they should just die like that video of two cows charging each other.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:12
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jokes posted:I really think they had chargers vulnerable to small arms fire late in development, and only flipped on that 90% damage reduction for non-explosive weapons at the end, because if that wasn't there then the packs of 5 chargers would just be kinda annoying/tense. 10% is too low, 100% is probably too much. Maybe 50%? 70%? Or maybe it'll naturally become less of a problem as more explosive primary weapons are introduced. And one or two more antagonist factions, so you don't feel pigeonholed half the time. Sindai fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 19:12
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Babe Magnet posted:you what we need for chargers? give me a little C4 grenade. something with high armor pen but maybe you only get two or something. I can think of a lot of uses for remote detonated C4 actually I would love a droppable C4 brick, so I could run those and the jetpack and relive my days of being a C4 fairy in Planetside 2
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Mar 6, 2024 19:12
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In more lighthearted discussion, it turns out incendiary grenades, while effective, just make chargers MORE terrifying. It's still coming, but now it's ON FIRE.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:14
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Nordick posted:I would love a droppable C4 brick, so I could run those and the jetpack and relive my days of being a C4 fairy in Planetside 2 this is 1000% what I was thinking. I want to jetpack up and slap a C4 on a bile titan's balls, for democracy
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Mar 6, 2024 19:14
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I've been having fully charged unsafe setting railgun rounds deflect off charger legs now, where are you supposed to shoot them?
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Mar 6, 2024 19:15
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Squashing Machine posted:That's the problem, you have a play pattern with them that you like but is pretty specific, and one of the biggest complaints people have right now is lack of viable build diversity. If they are the biggest pain point in the game, and the best way to handle them is one specific tactic, then that will essentially become the only thing you can bring unless you want every mission to be a slog. I don't think anyone's saying they need to be removed or made less fun for you to fight, but the charger's business-up-front-party-in-the-back design doesn't feel like it's paying off like it should unless you're running specific things. You need to be able to take them down in a semi-reasonable amount of time with any kit, because otherwise bringing stuff specifically to deal with them becomes mandatory. Bringing stuff specifically to deal with them should be mandatory. Now, there should be a variety of ways to do that, and I think the game is actually pretty good on that right now (there's 10 different weapons at this point that can reliably take them down, and if they fix the stinger it will be 11, and half of them can do it super quickly, and that's not counting strategems). But having people on your team who bring the right tools of the different jobs and filling different roles you need is, at least for me, literally half the point. Having an innefficient fallback option when you're out of options is fine, and we have that now, but it needs to stay inefficient to make the other stuff valuable. The problem with the breaker, railgun and shield and why they needed to be nerfed is specifically because they made bringing tailored kit and having team diversity so much less valuable, because that loadout could effectively handle every single thing the game, meaning your heavy weapons or explosives guy essentially had no meaningful role to play on the team because the railgun gun was already doing his job better (and also a bunch of other jobs besides) BabelFish posted:I've been having fully charged unsafe setting railgun rounds deflect off charger legs now, where are you supposed to shoot them? I'm not sure of the specifics, but angle of impact seems to matter for deflections. Try to hit them straight on on the flattest part you can see and see if it helps?
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Mar 6, 2024 19:16
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The face
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Mar 6, 2024 19:16
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Retro42 posted:Charger talk: Noticing from the dev talk about the patch and they explicitly refer to them as heavy and not medium armor. Possibly a design choice, but feels like they don't necessarily convey the severity of how beefy they are visually as much as some of us expect. EATs/etc can reliably kill medium armor(commanders/spewers/etc) without issue, I think it's just ingrained gamer behavior that we don't see Chargers as a class above them.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:16
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Edit: ^^^ I think it's more that standard gamer logic puts enemies that size and such as "medium" armor and not as the heavy armor that they actually are. Chargers are meant to be big chunks of health meant to disrupt and not deal direct damage like the medium bugs do.BabelFish posted:I've been having fully charged unsafe setting railgun rounds deflect off charger legs now, where are you supposed to shoot them? Bad angle maybe? I've done the same with EAT if it hits a shallow angle on the plate. Retro42 fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 19:16
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Durzel posted:Can you explain how this actually works? Arc Thrower is by definition a gun you have to hold down and then release the fire button, so you "stop firing" every time you fire, technically speaking. when you charge the arc thrower, it will make a click when its ready to fire. the time between charges gets shorter the more you use it in a small amount of time. its pretty noticeable and its something you would be doing naturally anyways i think its a binary if charged then shoot kind of deal. I dont think you get more damage for holding the charge down but i havent really tested that
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Mar 6, 2024 19:17
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How does the new railgun perform against Hulks and Tanks? I hope it kept the 2 hit headshot kill. Tanks and the big cannon turrets already felt super slow so if it takes more than 5 shots, it's just gonna feel awful. I always thought Chargers were manageable with the glitch - if they fix that then bugs will really become unmanageable, though flamethrower looks like it might be the new hot thing.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:18
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Chargers are spawned basically as often as Brood Commanders on the higher difficulties. Unlike Left 4 Dead that had a "Director" (how dressed up that was is open to debate, but listening to the dev blogs it was designed to give people breathing room at times), this game will just relentlessly throw poo poo at you until you run out of ammo or die. So, you need to always be on the move, except if you get caught in a fight you have innumerable ways of being slowed to a crawl - tiny green bugs, Hunters, even environmental poo poo is everywhere to slow you down, or will just insta-empty your stamina bar. Straight up running away from an overwhelming spawn just isn't possible in some cases. The notion of weapons that only work effectively with someone else carrying the backpack and reloading you is great as a concept, but in a pubby pick up game? Not sure it works. I think I've only ever seen anyone actually carrying the ammo backpack for someone else once, the rest of the time that person accepts they need to carry the backpack themselves. I think this concept of digging in and fighting off the incoming enemies runs counter to the game logic too, as mentioned above. Very rarely have I been in situations where it's possible to completely stop a multi bug breach situation, because every single bug appears to be able to do calldowns, and will do so seemingly randomly with no hard cap. I've been in games where we've had 4 Chargers and 40+ other stuff rushing us about 30 seconds after we've landed, before anyone has actually got their weapons.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:18
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So as I wait for the text to speech to stop repeating itself forever about menu options now that I have turned it off... Looks like they made another change to the major orders in reaction to players winning as we approach the zero hour for getting paid. A wall of text justifying increased enemy spawns. Which you can only read it you tap Z, it isn't listed on the major order itself. Also the new daily(?) is kill Section Z fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 19:19
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Chargers get straight murdered in close range by the flamethrower now if you guys still have trouble with them. The recoilless rifle still murders them, as does the spear which is even better now with its new ammo economy. If anything they need to buff the bile titan as it’s pretty harmless unless you stand still, you can use it’s breath to friendly fire a whole wave of bugs if you are good enough. Same with the tank for the bots, just way too easy to kill, the hulk is far deadlier.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:19
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GlyphGryph posted:The problem with the breaker, railgun and shield and why they needed to be nerfed is specifically because they made bringing tailored kit and having team diversity so much less valuable, because that loadout could effectively handle every single thing the game, meaning your heavy weapons or explosives guy essentially had no meaningful role to play on the team because the railgun gun was already doing his job better (and also a bunch of other jobs besides) Just emptyquoting this for how absolutely loving true it is.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:20
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Sindai posted:I feel like they'll have to either do this eventually or introduce another big bug that shares spawns with the charger and isn't as heavily armored. Bane of my loving existence
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Mar 6, 2024 19:21
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Babe Magnet posted:chargers should damage their armor when you make them run into walls/each other I actually got a clip of this last night, had two of them charge straight into eachother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYKk-IOINSI
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Mar 6, 2024 19:22
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boz posted:I actually got a clip of this last night, had two of them charge straight into eachother. Always wanted to see what would happen when you get some oil and rub two fat Chargers together.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:24
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GlyphGryph posted:Bringing stuff specifically to deal with them should be mandatory. Now, there should be a variety of ways to do that, and I think the game is actually pretty good on that right now (there's 10 different weapons at this point that can reliably take them down, and if they fix the stinger it will be 11, and half of them can do it super quickly, and that's not counting strategems). But having people on your team who bring the right tools of the different jobs and filling different roles you need is, at least for me, literally half the point. Having an innefficient fallback option when you're out of options is fine, and we have that now, but it needs to stay inefficient to make the other stuff valuable. I would also make an argument that if you make killing stuff laboured it makes it less fun, less pick up and play. Having to strategise every encounter might sound great to some people, but I suspect its not the game that people have fallen head over heels for already. It feels like it would be a different, more taxing game entirely. Durzel fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 19:25
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the anti-material rifle should have better pen. are these mfers not made out of material???
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Mar 6, 2024 19:26
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boz posted:I actually got a clip of this last night, had two of them charge straight into eachother. oh poo poo, I guess they have to be head-on or just in their actual charge attack animation? that's loving sick
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Mar 6, 2024 19:27
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Section Z posted:So as I wait for the text to speech to stop repeating itself forever about menu options now that I have turned it off... Looks like they made another change to the major orders in reaction to players winning as we approach the zero hour for getting paid. A wall of text justifying increased enemy spawns. Which you can only read it you tap Z, it isn't listed on the major order itself. I don't really understand how the rollover time works either honestly. I played yesterday in the afternoon and didn't have one, then late at night I had one with 8 hours remaining lol
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Mar 6, 2024 19:27
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my friend who always plays hammered and had no idea what anything did bought the flamethrower and took it to into a bug mission. That's how I learned it destroyed chargers. he's not a meta-chasing gamer at all and it was so funny to see him stumble upon this arcane knowledge (you're still telling yourself that they nerfed the only support weapon worth using)
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Mar 6, 2024 19:30
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Astrochicken posted:(you're still telling yourself that they nerfed the only support weapon worth using) But the autocannon is fine and allowed to kill both robots and bugs good? But I sure didn't want my autocannon vs charger rear end use to be more valid by smashing the railgun with a hammer. Hmm, one gun only kills me for obvious 'something right in front of me' reasons and remains for me to pick up later with a mountain of ammo. The other gun now needs the tryhard suicide mode calling you a Call of Duty lover if you don't risk killing yourself to mildly dent something with multiple shots under pressure... Yeah, my reckless love of setting the autocannon to autofire is looking real good for all the wrong reasons right now. Section Z fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 19:31
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