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phosdex posted:I understand there are situations where they aren't allowed to say one way or another, but basically "anything could happen to your insurance rates" is not helpful. Do you have a real estate attorney or is one customary in your market? At this stage in the offer, they can typically advise on how to negotiate to receive a CLUE report for the property, and/or a decrease in purchase price of the property. Since you have an executed sales agreement, an insurance agent may be able to get a copy of the CLUE report for you if for some reason the house owners are unwilling to provide one, or you don't want to ask for negotiation reasons. You can probably just... get insurance quotes for the property and compare them. The insurance estimates on websites such as Redfin will not be accurate since they will assume a clean CLUE. Inner Light fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 00:57
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Sorry I don't have an agreement or offer or anything on that place right now. Was just wondering what kinda things to be aware of if I did buy a place that had prior water damage. And I didn't know for sure, but suspected that insurance claims on a house even by POs might affect future owners. If I go further forward with that place I'll see if my current insurance company will give me some estimates.
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Mar 7, 2024 01:09
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phosdex posted:Sorry I don't have an agreement or offer or anything on that place right now. Was just wondering what kinda things to be aware of if I did buy a place that had prior water damage. And I didn't know for sure, but suspected that insurance claims on a house even by POs might affect future owners. Oh gotcha, yep that is bog standard for How House/Condo Insurance Works. I guess House/Condo losses for the specific address are strongly tied to the premium underwriting. Similar to an accident history following a driver on car insurance across insurance companies. But one flood loss shouldn't be too bad. As with many things it's going to be an It Depends situation. You can repair a house badly like you can repair a car badly, and the only way to know how it was done is to see photo evidence or tear 'er open. And the offer price should be substantially below market, with an appropriate adjustment for the loss history/disclosures. Inner Light fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 01:32
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Just a point, at least in MN I was able to get more than an insurance estimate, I was able to get the actual "here is the insurance rates" before purchasing, it just wouldn't kick in until closing. That really shouldn't be something that is a surprise. I also think it's impossible to say "the house should be below market value" based on what's been said here. It's not like a car, after a certain point nearly every house is going to have some kind of substantial repair. Knowing about this one doesn't automatically make it worse.
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Mar 7, 2024 05:34
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Lockback posted:I also think it's impossible to say "the house should be below market value" based on what's been said here. It's not like a car, after a certain point nearly every house is going to have some kind of substantial repair. Knowing about this one doesn't automatically make it worse. Not all homes are in maintenance debt. Not all homes have still-existing construction defects. Inspections are specifically for identifying this type of thing and having it reflected in the price appropriately, as appraisals do not address these types of issues. It is the actual point of the process to determine if "the house shoudl be below market value" and I really don't understand how you're trying to apply a car analogy or how you're missing the entire point of this process. How do you think actual value is determined before it gets confirmed by a market sale?
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Mar 7, 2024 15:09
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Lockback posted:Just a point, at least in MN I was able to get more than an insurance estimate, I was able to get the actual "here is the insurance rates" before purchasing, it just wouldn't kick in until closing. That really shouldn't be something that is a surprise. There's a big difference between a house that costs $Market_Value and one that cost $Market_Value - (New_Roof+New_Electrical)
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Mar 7, 2024 15:16
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Motronic posted:Not all homes are in maintenance debt. Not all homes have still-existing construction defects. Inspections are specifically for identifying this type of thing and having it reflected in the price appropriately, as appraisals do not address these types of issues. It is the actual point of the process to determine if "the house shoudl be below market value" and I really don't understand how you're trying to apply a car analogy or how you're missing the entire point of this process. Are you directing this to me? I was saying the same thing as you that Inner Light's comment that the house is worth below market is a generalization you can't make without more inputs.
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Mar 7, 2024 15:38
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Found a great little new build, well within our price range. Biggest problem is it’s 1 mile as the crow flies from a “Waste-to-energy” plant, which I take it is basically a fancy incinerator, that was built in 1989 and processes residential and commercial waste. Anyone know much about these facilities? At best it seems like it’s just a bit of an eye sore, at worst it’s a deadly geiser of carcinogenic fumes… I’m inclined to think it’s worth worrying about, but drat thousands of people must live within a mile of that thing. It’s right behind the grocery store! So I can’t help but wonder if I’m worrying excessively
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Mar 7, 2024 16:56
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If you have concerns so will the next person you try to sell it on to. This means a smaller pool of potential buyers and a discount on the market value to entice people to buy despite that. I have no idea if there is a real health risk. There may well be, I’ll leave that for others. But, much like having high voltage power lines over head, regardless of the reality it’s going to mess with selling it later. If you’re OK with it that’s your call, just make sure you price in the defect.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:04
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I mean a mile is far but I'd be concerned about smell when wind shifts. Probably less so about health concerns as that stuff drops off by something like inverse square and a mile is a really long way. Personally I'd definitely try to talk to neighbors if you can and see their experiences. Cyrano4747 posted:If you have concerns so will the next person you try to sell it on to. This means a smaller pool of potential buyers and a discount on the market value to entice people to buy despite that. This is also a good consideration. Sounds like it's already built into the price to some extent?
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Mar 7, 2024 17:10
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Cyrano4747 posted:If you have concerns so will the next person you try to sell it on to. This means a smaller pool of potential buyers and a discount on the market value to entice people to buy despite that. It also has high voltage power lines running about 1000 feet from the property line, yay! Im not too worried about that however, they’re not visible from the property. Yeah it’s selling at a very reasonable price for the area. Id think that if it weren’t for this facility it would go for significantly more.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:12
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hobbez posted:It also has high voltage power lines running about 1000 feet from the property line, yay! Im not too worried about that however, they’re not visible from the property. Remember back when we were discussing homes in "grades"? Even if that's an "A" house, it's on a C or D piece of land. The one thing you can't change is where the house is located, so you need to get a huge discount up front to make that work, and even then you'll generally see less appreciation on the property than you would have otherwise.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:15
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hobbez posted:Found a great little new build, well within our price range. Biggest problem is it’s 1 mile as the crow flies from a “Waste-to-energy” plant, which I take it is basically a fancy incinerator, that was built in 1989 and processes residential and commercial waste. Incinerators are really lovely to live near: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/is-burning-trash-a-good-way-to-dispose-of-it-waste-incineration-in-charts
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Mar 7, 2024 17:27
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hobbez posted:Found a great little new build, well within our price range. Biggest problem is it’s 1 mile as the crow flies from a “Waste-to-energy” plant, which I take it is basically a fancy incinerator, that was built in 1989 and processes residential and commercial waste. It's probably not as bad as living in the footprint of a coal power plant (maybe?), but I wouldn't want to live that close to any facility that emits hazardous fumes.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:53
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hobbez posted:It also has high voltage power lines running about 1000 feet from the property line, yay! Im not too worried about that however, they’re not visible from the property. quote:Incinerators release many air pollutants, including nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxides, particulate matter, lead, mercury, dioxins and furans. These substances are known to have serious public health effects, from increased cancer risk to respiratory illness, cardiac disease and reproductive, developmental and neurological problems. Hmmmmmmm. Yeah this may be a dealbreaker for me. Bummer, nice home. It’s frustrating that air quality data on the facility isn’t publicly available, at least as far as I can see. Maybe if I contacted the facility directly I could get it but I doubt it
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Mar 7, 2024 18:36
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hobbez posted:Hmmmmmmm. I'd reach out to the city or county to find out where you should get it from, myself.
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Mar 7, 2024 18:43
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One thing you could do is search for violations from the facility with local regulatory agencies, EPA, Air Resource Board, Air Quality Management District, etc. The writeups can be informative.
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Mar 7, 2024 18:48
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hobbez posted:Biggest problem is it’s 1 mile as the crow flies from a commercial waste burning facility KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Do not buy that house.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:53
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Which state is this house in?
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Mar 7, 2024 20:01
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Cormack posted:One thing you could do is search for violations from the facility with local regulatory agencies, EPA, Air Resource Board, Air Quality Management District, etc. The writeups can be informative. Good idea! I found the last few sets of results from the annual testing, which all look well within their EPA permissible limits for the scary stuff. Whether these annual spot tests reflect the continuous emissions levels of the plant or not is anyones guess. Furthermore, whether these "safe" levels of emissions with which the plant is in compliance are, furthermore, anyone's guess. It looks like the facility was substantially upgraded in 2013 and the operating company (lol) claims it is essentially a state of the art facility. Again, who knows if that is true!  Seeing the output tests are in compliance and finding the plant received a major upgrade in the past decade is somewhat encouraging... Gonna keep digging. QuarkJets posted:Which state is this house in? New Hampshire! Live free or die!! from toxic emissions 
hobbez fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 20:17
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Fixated on "commercial waste"; does that include medical waste? Is the house upwind or downwind given local prevailing wind patterns? Would your house be in the ash fall out zone (is there any ash?) If it got an upgrade that's a positive sign, I would imagine 70s era regulations were virtually non-existent by modern standards
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Mar 7, 2024 20:28
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They can't keep coal plants from dumping mercury and uranium around them despite complex and expensive scrubbers and emissions controls and tall smokestacks. They aren't going to do better with random poo poo from trash even if they try to prefilter.
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Mar 7, 2024 20:28
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Do not buy that house. also: https://www.epa.gov/superfund/search-superfund-sites-where-you-live
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Mar 7, 2024 20:31
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Hadlock posted:Fixated on "commercial waste"; does that include medical waste? Is the house upwind or downwind given local prevailing wind patterns? Would your house be in the ash fall out zone (is there any ash?) No medical waste! So we got that goin for us. No hazardous waste generally, theoretically. Unfortunately I do think we’d be downwind but I’m not totally sure Part of this also is that we just lost a bid in which we bid over asking by 25k. House had 10 offers, at least one of which was all cash. Was pretty bummed about it and now I’m worried our new area is going to be way more competitive for housing then I anticipated and am therefore willing to go live in the toxic deadzone hobbez fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 20:51
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one nice thing (lol, "nice") is that all the houses in that neighborhood are also in the toxic waste dead zone, so the local comps should reflect what local buyers think of that. The bad thing is if there's not enough turnover in that neighborhood for you to get 3-5 very recent sales as comps, because comps outside that neighborhood are going to be that much more misleading. Also a lot of people in that neighborhood are going to look on zillow or redfin, see values outside the toxic waste zone, and assume those are comps they can use to set a price on their house. The worse thing is uhhhhh don't live in a toxic waste zone, so like, all of the above just ignore right? I mean do you want to have kids? Developers should be punished for constructing houses next to toxic waste factories, municipalities too, and one way you very indirectly accomplish that is by refusing to buy those houses. It really sucks for the previous owners who bought them I guess but it's not your job to rescue them.
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Mar 8, 2024 00:31
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Leperflesh posted:one nice thing (lol, "nice") is that all the houses in that neighborhood are also in the toxic waste dead zone, so the local comps should reflect what local buyers think of that. I do like the idea of using comps to quantify what a reasonable discount relative to other areas might be. I appreciate that everyone wants to be conservative and err on the side of health and safety but also it's worth pointing out it's not a superfund site just yet (though I myself have been calling it a toxic death zone in jest). And the area isn't exactly filled with decrepit shanties full of people without means to live further away from the facility. This is a home that sold on that road in 2022 and is a reasonable approximation of what the area looks like.  I don't mean to imply having the means to buy a nice house approximates someones ability to assess an environmental hazard, but I do want to point out that the residents here aren't exactly stuck there with nowhere else to go (which is sadly I think the case in some communities with more hazardous local situations then this one.) Is there some risk associated with living near a facility like this? Probably. But I think maybe we're overdoing it just a litttttttle bit deeming it a "toxic waste zone". I may walk away from this one but I wouldn't consider someone a total fool for looking past these concerns either hobbez fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Mar 8, 2024 |
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Mar 8, 2024 03:57
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hobbez posted:I don't mean to imply having the means to buy a nice house approximates someones ability to assess an environmental hazard, but I do want to point out that the residents here aren't exactly stuck there with nowhere else to go (which is sadly I think the case in some communities with more hazardous local situations then this one.) It's near this facility and high tension powerlines. The simple fact that this discussion is happening is an indication of the discount you need to buy and will need to take when selling. It dodesn't matter if the fears are totally unfounded. I don't believe that to be the case, but it's still irrelavant to the value proposition we're discussing here.
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Mar 8, 2024 04:06
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hobbez posted:I do like the idea of using comps to quantify what a reasonable discount relative to other areas might be. People build nice homes next to massive eyesores, health hazards, and other defects all the time. Sometimes because a developer plopped down a subdivision and figured they could find suckers, sometimes because someone bought the cheap house that used to be there and built up their dream home where they could afford to. poo poo, a place I lived a decade or so ago had a big, fancy subdivision built on top of an old landfill. Hypothetically it was all remediated and encapsulated so it was safe but. . . well. . . I'm skeptical. \ Just make sure you price all this poo poo in.
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Mar 8, 2024 17:45
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Yeah the real estate developer doesn't give a poo poo about that facility, they got the land at a discount and probably have to sell their houses at a discount but they still walk away with a nice profit. They benefit from the OP's initial impressions: the price is so much better than surrounding areas, the power plant is probably just an eyesore, other people live nearby so it can't be that bad right? Probably no one should be living in that area but capitalism is gonna capitalism
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Mar 8, 2024 18:27
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there are countless near-million or over-million dollar homes on crumbling California cliffsides. Geologists understood how cliff erosion happens a hundred years ago and every one of those houses was constructed with local permits granted, on land that was surveyed and approved, by people who knew what was going to happen, and then purchased by people who simply didn't want to think about the inevitability or didn't care to find out. Many of them have subsequently demanded municipalities spend extraordinary amounts to try to save their homes, by dumping huge boulders at the bases of their cliffs, etc.; all such measures are temporary at best. Quite a few of them are shocked that their insurance doesn't cover their house falling into the ocean, they cannot sell it to anyone, and they've lost a million dollars. That's just one example. Countless homes are constructed and sold, situated in regular flood zones, at the bases of mudslide-prone hills, straddling active fault lines, and directly in the path of tornadoes and hurricanes. We as a society have constantly ignored obvious impending dangers and risks, because of the lovely views or convenient access or quiet nature or grand vista etc. Let someone else be the fool and their money, soon parted.
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Mar 8, 2024 18:39
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Leperflesh posted:there are countless near-million or over-million dollar homes on crumbling California cliffsides. Geologists understood how cliff erosion happens a hundred years ago and every one of those houses was constructed with local permits granted, on land that was surveyed and approved, by people who knew what was going to happen, and then purchased by people who simply didn't want to think about the inevitability or didn't care to find out. Many of them have subsequently demanded municipalities spend extraordinary amounts to try to save their homes, by dumping huge boulders at the bases of their cliffs, etc.; all such measures are temporary at best. Quite a few of them are shocked that their insurance doesn't cover their house falling into the ocean, they cannot sell it to anyone, and they've lost a million dollars. But also the people living in near-million or over-million dollar houses on crumbling California coasts have additional houses and/or millions to 1) fix and rebuild and 2) put the necessary political pressure to ensure they get all the additional federal/state resources they need to bulwark the cliffs. See Newport Beach, California vs. East Palestine, Ohio for example of a disparity in resources.
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Mar 8, 2024 19:03
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well, some of them do; some bought their houses for 400k in 1995
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Mar 8, 2024 19:21
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Example These houses on the West side of Northridge drive just north of Pacifica in San Francisco are all doomed.  This one Zillow lists as "worth" over a million dollars. It has not been bought/sold since at least 2000, but it must have been held for a lot longer than that because its current tax assessment is just $90k, meaning prop 13 has held its maximum tax increase at 2% for probably 30-40 years.  It might not collapse into the sea for another five, ten, even twenty years: but it's going there eventually, and its actual value is probably a lot less than one million dollars. Here are the "recently sold" properties that Zillow shows, and you can see how all of them are inland of that actual row of houses, but their values are being used for the "zestimate"  It sure has a spectacular view, though! I hope whoever lives there is enjoying the last years of their investment, before their hubris is realized
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Mar 8, 2024 19:33
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Are you the poster who has shared these stories itt before Leperflesh? I just want to express how much I appreciate them, it's fascinating to see these homes that are so obviously doomed
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Mar 8, 2024 21:29
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yes, probably; I took a lot of geology courses at SF state in 1998-2000 including a Geology of San Francisco class, and one of our trips was a walk down that beach and pointing at houses that, on that day, were still up there but, today, are not any more. We looked at historic photos too and talked a bit about the history of development along the peninsula's pacific coast. It struck me as a useful example because we often presume that the victims of natural disasters didn't know what was coming. Which, often, they didn't: but they ought to have, and the flow of information from the experts who can and have identified risks, down to the people who actually assume those risks with their life savings, is somehow extravagantly broken in America. e. those cliffs in those photos are compacted holocene sand dunes. That's not even rock, it's sorta nearly-rock, what could have become a sandstone if it ever had pressure on top of it, which it hasn't. That's just an accumulation of sand from the last few tens of thousands of years, and it's eroding at rates of like a foot a year or more in some places, albeit not at a smooth rate but rather in highly punctuated chunks each time there's a major storm. This SF Gate article is from 2003 and is about that specific block: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/church-rethinks-site-after-slide-nearby-daly-2545279.php You can see where the church is located. Lol. quote:"Many engineers looked at the land and said it would be safe for 50 years, " said Rev. Eugene Noh, a pastor of the church. "We were really struck by the size of this landslide. What surprised us the most was the proximity of the failure to our site." Why would you build a church to only last 50 years? And look at where it's located, it's on the ravine, not even on the edge of the cliff above the ocean. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Mar 8, 2024 |
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Mar 8, 2024 21:33
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Leperflesh posted:This SF Gate article is from 2003 and is about that specific block: that same sfgate article posted:Korean Central Presbyterian Church, now will consider building elsewhere -- after reassessing the safety of the site.  Correlation isn't causation, but it sure looks like the paved parking lot there is exacerbating erosion. Looks like they built it in the wrong place anyways and that new canyon their parking lot (might be) https://maps.app.goo.gl/5FCCXTUJHqzQJTVa8 link goes to satellite view of fresh erosion downhill of the church parking lot into the ocean Edit: there's street view that goes right to the edge, their entire parking lot drains into that chasm with no visible erosion control like sandbags, lol Hadlock fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 8, 2024 |
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Mar 8, 2024 21:50
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For people who have bought houses and renovated them, are there any features people have either especially regretted or been especially glad they installed? Fancy robotic toilets? High end insulation?
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Mar 8, 2024 22:04
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Hadlock posted:
That canyon has been there for at least a century, and a major issue is that water goes right down through the sand and percolates out at the beach level where it hits the underlying Franciscan formation rocks, causing erosion at the foot of the cliff: that said, I think it's very likely that the property's lot is making erosion at the top of the slope worse.
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Mar 8, 2024 22:07
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Looking at the terrain view (and, now, at Google Earth,), it looks like Avalon canyon is entirely north of that "fresh cut" off the parking lot
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Mar 8, 2024 22:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:For people who have bought houses and renovated them, are there any features people have either especially regretted or been especially glad they installed? Fancy robotic toilets? High end insulation? Plumbing that doesn't piss water everywhere is pretty high up my "I'm glad I paid money to have this put in" list.
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Mar 8, 2024 22:39
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