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Yureina posted:Maybe some of you are just way too used to dealing with bad faith actors. I understand that: I certainly have had my fill of dealing with online shitheads over the years. But as stated in the forum rules? Assuming that someone is a bad faith actor is not okay here. I thought that was the case, and so I entered this thread based upon the assumption that I'd be dealing with people in good faith. I know that I am not a scholar in all things Israel-Palestine, and so I expected some pushback if I made some factual errors. But then I could correct it and things could move on. But with the way these conversations have been going? I'm getting pretty close to writing this thread off. For those of you who think this series of posts ends in a fight with me and you getting to beat on the covert fash/Trumper? That's not how this story will end. It ends with me walking away after having tried my best to engage, but finding that I'm just dealing with a bunch of assholes. As for the rules, I stated a scenario where you were in good faith (which you didn't mention and brings up further questions for me). Also that comic doesn't have to just be about MAGA people. It was in direct response to you saying that if people don't be extra special nice to you that you will end up having a worse opinion. Your opinion should not form based on how nice people are to you when you don't do your research in the first place (as pointed out by other posters). Your opinion should be formed based on the information available. The comic is apt. The Sean fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 04:18
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I believe we can change people's hearts and minds when we deliver pamphlets telling them they have to evacuate in order to escape death. I'd go to Vermont!
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Mar 6, 2024 05:15
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Yureina posted:True enough. The posts I have been making in this thread about "what comes after" have gone with the assumption that the bombs will stop falling (a safe assumption, unless Israel literally can change the weather patterns to make it automatically rain bombs on Gaza for all time), and so that there would be a pause that would allow things to move forward. I was actually catching up on some things earlier, and I remember seeing the mention of that corridor between Gaza and the West Bank as one of the proposals at Camp David. Alas it seems that everything went to hell after that, though I am hearing conflicting messages as to why, and apparently nobody wrote anything down? I was alive and conscious when all of those events were taking place, but it has been a long time since I looked into the specifics about that stuff. If you want a detailed look at the peace process discussions, which were by their nature secret, I would suggest Shattered Dreams by Charles Enderlin or Clayton E. Swisher's The Truth About Camp David. These are both books by journalists who spoke to the people on both sides of negotiations to comprehensive and clear view of what got discussed and which got praise from the Israeli and Palestinian negotiators for their accuracy. The main takeaway is: 1) Palestine was willing to make large concessions on the rights the international community has agreed it had to try and get peace, e.g. a limited right of return, swapping land to let Israel retain its illegal settlements, etc. 2) Israel was not willing to consider a sovereign Palestine which was the entire point of the negotiations, for instance still insisting on an Israeli military presence in the future ‘free’ Palestine, control over Palestine’s borders, control over Palestine’s airspace, veto power over what it can construct, etc. 3) Israel was very adept at playing the US negotiating team to look willing and present the Palestinians as obstructionist - for instance Israel started off by having actually moved backwards from where their previous Oslo discussions had left off (Which the US weren’t involved in). Israel then received a lot of credit from the US for making ‘concessions’ when they reverted to the same position they’d held previously.
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Mar 6, 2024 07:50
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team overhead smash posted:If you want a detailed look at the peace process discussions, which were by their nature secret, I would suggest Shattered Dreams by Charles Enderlin or Clayton E. Swisher's The Truth About Camp David. These are both books by journalists who spoke to the people on both sides of negotiations to comprehensive and clear view of what got discussed and which got praise from the Israeli and Palestinian negotiators for their accuracy. All reasonable points - but in this situation it's also less than pragmatic to let perfect become the enemy of good. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 6, 2024 08:11
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Wizard Master posted:All reasonable points - but in this situation it's also less than pragmatic to let perfect become the enemy of good. What point are you trying to make here? I mean it seems like you’re being critical of Palestine for not agreeing to peace, but in context that makes no sense e.g. suggesting that Palestines were holding out for the ‘perfect’ deal when actually they were making large concessions. I’d also say that this assumes that the deal was good rather than simply bad. This was negotiations over a final status for both sides, with Palestine essentially giving up all leverage it has, making big concessions and in return not being offered the basic condition which was the point of the negotiations - an independent Palestine free of Israeli control.
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Mar 6, 2024 08:21
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Yureina posted:The posts I have been making in this thread about "what comes after" have gone with the assumption that the bombs will stop falling (a safe assumption, unless Israel literally can change the weather patterns to make it automatically rain bombs on Gaza for all time), and so that there would be a pause that would allow things to move forward. Bad assumption. Israel never gives them much time to rebuild. They find an excuse to attack and destroy what meager rebuilding attempts get made during 'peace'. They have a term for it, 'cutting the grass'. Israel is a colonial state, they require Palestine to be kept in a weakened state. quote:It ends with me walking away after having tried my best to engage, but finding that I'm just dealing with a bunch of assholes. Byeee
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Mar 6, 2024 09:16
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Yureina posted:I've been trying to ignore this, but my patience is starting to run thin. The problem that you and other posters in this thread seem to have is that you assume that I waltzed into this thread with some sort of agenda that I'm guiding people towards. In other words, that I am acting in bad faith. That is not what happened, and I didn't assume that you were posting in bad faith. What happened is that your first posts in this discussion were moralizing about how extremism is bad, how much you don't like talking to extremists, how people in this thread are prone to hyperbole and don't know what "genocide" means, and trying to "both sides" this conflict in general. You're basically walking into a room and announcing that everyone in that room is an idiot. How do you expect that to go? You followed that up with the very silly post about how Gaza should climb the tech tree in order to gain "long-term viability". That isn't "looking ahead". That's being delusional about what Gaza's situation currently is, or is likely to be as long as Israel holds power over them. You've received very reasonable and justified negative feedback on these posts, because they make it obvious that you lack much understanding of this conflict. The way to handle that is to ask questions or lurking more, it's not to complain about extremism or to post your one weird trick to save Gaza and then getting hurt when people tell you that what you're posting is dumb. Esran fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 18:05
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The point of reading these threads is to change your own mind. It won't always happen but if it never happens then you're really getting nothing out of it. The point of posting in these threads is to change other people's minds (hopefully without being dishonest). We all come in with an agenda and it's not "bad faith" to have one. Agendas are the natural result of understanding. Someone without an agenda can simply lurk and read and educate themselves until they have enough understanding to have an agenda. Bad faith is when someone pretends they don't have the agenda they have. When someone says that they don't have an agenda but continues to post, nobody has to presume anything.
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Mar 6, 2024 18:07
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I just got back from a few days in Israel. My best friend got married and it was also a good time to visit my ageing parents since I haven't been there in a long time. I think I was expecting to see certain things so I may have projected a bit, but I figured I'd share my anecdotes here anyway. It was remarkable how many things changed, but also how many things remained unchanged. I heard from friends that it was completely different until the end of last year, but as it stands when I was there the beaches and bars were full and if you didn't listen to people actually talking you couldn't imagine that a couple hours' drive away there's two million people starving or dying. The most immediate and obvious thing is the amount of jingoism and propaganda prevalent everywhere. Israel was always a chauvinistic place but they've ratcheted it up to Starship Troopers-level. As you land in the airport you are immediately greeted by pictures of kidnapees, in posters and on the screens of the goddamn passport check machines. As you go into Tel-Aviv you see skyscrapers draped with Israeli flag, often with the slogan "Together we Will Win". which is also under the logos of most of the main newspapers (sans Haaretz) and on buses' electronic signs. Posters of kidnapped children around every highway and on benches, storefronts and whatnot. Some benches have teddy bears drenched in red paint (and I heard that there are more of this stuff in other places in the city I didn't go into). Corporate logos now often incorporate the Israeli flag in them (I even downloaded an app which now had a small flag in its app icon), and in TV ads will often pay lip service to the reserve forces, the IDF or simply the Israeli people. Everyone supports the troops. The coup de grace was a TV ad for the so-called rapid-response teams. Civilians that are given weapons and can assist local police in case of emergencies, which existed in settlements and some fringe towns but wasn't a major thing before this war. You can see the ad here, and I don't think you need to understand Hebrew to get what it's trying to sell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlJ6qK-JoNI Talking to people is much more subjective and anecdotal,, but all of the people I talked to were in Tel-Aviv and nominally left-wing before. On the whole it felt like people swung to the right, and very rarely did people not show complete trust that war as a whole was just and commitment to its continuation and to the IDF, no one had any second thoughts if they were called up (I only met one person who mentioned they said no when they were asked). In cases where they had objection to the whole war it was more of a shrug, saying "what can we do", and it indeed seems they are a tiny minority inside the already tiny minority of the Israeli left. I met a couple of people who are actively looking for ways to move away (which I whole heartedly recommended), but more fascinatingly I met one person who said that they wanted to move before the war - but now they realise that Israel is the only place that will keep Jews safe. The rest of the world is anti-semitic or at least will ignore anti-semitism and they don't want to raise a child in a place where they'll have to worry about that. Nearly every conversation I had started with "Do you feel the war over there? Isn't there a lot of antisemitism in France?" (and while it is a problem here it is increased to insane proportions in the us-versus-them narrative). I expect some people will find it distasteful to visit Israel at the moment (because I'm paying VAT and boosting the economy I guess) and particularly to go to a party there. Completely understandable, but at the same time life goes on and I don't think any Palestinians will gain anything by me withholding this visit.
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Mar 6, 2024 18:18
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kiminewt posted:
We only have so much time with our parents and friends. I'd never fault someone for traveling to be with family, and it's not like you traveled over there to do TikTok on the Wailing Wall going 'We're making the Gaza wail for -real- over there, woo!'. Thank you for the firsthand account of the situation there. Really feels like post 9/11 vibes but in a far more ethnically-organized society. Also, I saw a ton of pro-Israel ads and hostage pictures in the airports here in Argentina, first last December and then back again in February when I return.
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Mar 6, 2024 18:46
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kiminewt posted:more fascinatingly I met one person who said that they wanted to move before the war - but now they realise that Israel is the only place that will keep Jews safe. The rest of the world is anti-semitic or at least will ignore anti-semitism and they don't want to raise a child in a place where they'll have to worry about that. just really bizarre. they don't feel anything about raising a child in a country where their kids will get drafted to run an occupation and likely see combat? or just getting randomly stabbed or run over by a car? like, come on
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Mar 6, 2024 18:49
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One aspect of muted opposition to the war is that it is literally dangerous for anyone to oppose the war in Israel. There is the case of Meir Baruchin, an Israeli high school history teacher who posted of photo of a Palestinian family killed in an IDF attack on Facebook to raise awareness of the humanity of Palestinians.quote:The authorities in Petah Tikva, led by a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing Likud party, accused him of "sedition" and "incitement to terrorism" after his post on Facebook. And of course it is even worse if you are a Palestinian: quote:The 21-year-old computer science student was beamed into the small wood-paneled courtroom from jail via video link. She had dark circles under her eyes after 11 nights in detention.
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Mar 6, 2024 18:54
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Wizard Master posted:All reasonable points - but in this situation it's also less than pragmatic to let perfect become the enemy of good. The offer Israel made was total dogshit it wasn't in the same universe as "good".
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Mar 6, 2024 20:46
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Groovelord Neato posted:The offer Israel made was total dogshit it wasn't in the same universe as "good". It seems almost impossible to get people out of the headspace of Israel being fundamentally "good" or "reasonable". Propaganda works.
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Mar 6, 2024 21:05
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Someone, probably Maine Paineframe, was citing the precise Geneva Convention that says even if you DID use a hospital as a base, it doesn't mean you can bomb it. Does anyone have that?
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Mar 7, 2024 02:48
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Jaxyon posted:Someone, probably Maine Paineframe, was citing the precise Geneva Convention that says even if you DID use a hospital as a base, it doesn't mean you can bomb it. Does anyone have that? Based on my googling it looks like the Geneva Convention rules don't say that exactly - they do allow for a hospital or religious/educational/etc building to be attacked if it's being used to launch attacks. There is an very high burden of proof and the attacker is obligated to provide advanced warning but at some point "you can bomb it" because it loses its legal protection. There is a quote from the ICC chief prosecutor who is obviously accusing of Israel of violating international law without outright saying it - he still grants the possibility that a hospital can lose its protective status because it's a military base and has proven to be so. quote:Karim Khan, the chief prosecutor at the ICC, wrote in the Guardian: “For those responsible for targeting and firing missiles, I wish to be clear on three points in particular. One: in relation to every dwelling house, in relation to any school, any hospital, any church, any mosque – those places are protected, unless the protective status has been lost because they are being used for military purposes. Two: if there is a doubt that a civilian object has lost its protective status, the attacker must assume that it is protected. Three: the burden of demonstrating that this protective status is lost rests with those who fire the gun, the missile, or the rocket in question. And it looks like the actual Geneva conventions permit it: quote:Article 19 - Wounded and sick IV. Discontinuance of protection of hospitals Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 03:07
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Based on my googling it looks like the Geneva Convention rules don't say that exactly - they do allow for a hospital or religious/educational/etc building to be attacked if it's being used to launch attacks. There is an very high burden of proof and the attacker is obligated to provide advanced warning but at some point "you can bomb it" because it loses its legal protection. I don't have sources because I'm phone posting but in my readings I've also seen a requirement of a level of emergency. It's not enough to say that it's an HQ or planning center, the hospital or other protected facility has to be used as a base to recently or imminently launch attacks from with a high level of certainty. Obviously none of Israel's hospital bombings or raids reach anywhere near this standard.
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Mar 7, 2024 03:54
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You are only subject to international law to the extent anyone is willing to enforce it. I suppose Israeli government and military officials might hesitate to visit South Africa but beyond that it's hard to see what difference it will make whether they are in breach of x, y, z treaty.
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Mar 7, 2024 04:01
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The concept that anyone in the IDF is stopping to refer to the Geneva convention at any point is grimly hilarious. E: also, you absolutely should not hand it to David loving Cameron (AKA DCFADP) , but this is something at least https://twitter.com/NaksBilal/status/1765643150712848388?t=mgL7yJXRbLDGaf_E0Iljpg&s=19 Failed Imagineer fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 10:24
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It’s great the UNRWA is getting its funding back but it’s going to be, at best, a blurb in a side article for western media that spent a week screaming about how the UNRWA worked in league with HAMAS in the October 7th attacks because they hate Jewish people. The UNRWA being front for evil terrorists is already gonna be strong in the public mind and that’s exactly what Israel and America wanted because they dared to called out Israel’s ongoing genocide
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Mar 7, 2024 14:54
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What are people's thoughts on this? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/injunction-montreal-protest-real-estate-1.7135106 quote:A Quebec court has temporarily prohibited protests near several Jewish institutions in Montreal's Côte-des-Neiges–Notre-Dame-de-Grâce borough following back-to-back demonstrations outside community buildings in recent days. It seems there was a protest at the synagogue because there was a real estate event there allegedly promoting property in the West Bank. Then there was a follow-up protest at CJA, presumably because of them being Zionist and having connections to Hillel. No idea why those other places are included in the injunction. Usual backlash that protesting near a synagogue is awful, despite the fact that they weren't protesting it for religious reasons. I dunno, there's no proper way to protest I guess.
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Mar 7, 2024 15:30
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Fidelitious posted:What are people's thoughts on this? I mean, I guess I can see why there would be a prohibition on protest, after all, not all Jewish people agree with what Israel is doi- quote:It seems there was a protest at the synagogue because there was a real estate event there allegedly promoting property in the West Bank.  I'msorrywhatthefuck? Yeah, no poo poo people would protest that, it's a bit hard to say you're innocent WHILE ACTIVELY SELLING PROPERTY IN THE AREAS YOU'RE INVADING. That is downright ghoulish, and any time someone says "Israel is just trying to stop the mean ol' Hamas" should be met with "Have you bought your timeshare in the West Bank yet?"
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Mar 7, 2024 15:53
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Randalor posted:I mean, I guess I can see why there would be a prohibition on protest, after all, not all Jewish people agree with what Israel is doi- Somehow I doubt that the land purchase seminars will get any kind of widespread media coverage.
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Mar 7, 2024 16:32
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Fidelitious posted:What are people's thoughts on this? It's not alleged either, they hold these regularly there and in Brooklyn and NJ too and other parts of the world as well: https://realestateisrael.org
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Mar 7, 2024 17:09
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https://twitter.com/semafor/status/1765786472324517930?t=4vvBBjJrIz0eYc9ihUv_2Q&s=19 Biden is directing the military to create an emergency port to break a blockade of an a nominal ally who is slaughtering civilians by the thousands with weapons the United States has provided. Incredibly bizarre. Also seems like there's a non zero chance that the IDF interferes with this and causes American casualties to me
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Mar 7, 2024 18:18
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rscott posted:Also seems like there's a non zero chance that the IDF interferes with this and causes American casualties to me
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Mar 7, 2024 18:30
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rscott posted:https://twitter.com/semafor/status/1765786472324517930?t=4vvBBjJrIz0eYc9ihUv_2Q&s=19 Can someone explain the logistics of how this would work? Has this been done before? It seems more efficient than airdrops, but that's not saying much.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:00
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Can someone explain the logistics of how this would work? Has this been done before? It seems more efficient than airdrops, but that's not saying much. User Bar Ran Dun is likely able to provide some information, they're posting about it in USCE. It's an established emergency response practice.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:07
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Can someone explain the logistics of how this would work? Has this been done before? It seems more efficient than airdrops, but that's not saying much. I’m not sure about the breaking blockade of an ally that you are arming but, but temporary ports are a thing. Following the Normandy landings there were temporary “mulberry ports” used to help supply the allied armies when they didn’t have enough ports. Those managed tens of thousands of tonnes of supplies per day at their height it seems from a quick wiki check.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:11
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This is to give US military practice for invasions. It's all MIC, baby. As a bonus, we might help the people our ally is torturing by the millions, but hey whatever.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:49
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Can someone explain the logistics of how this would work? Has this been done before? It seems more efficient than airdrops, but that's not saying much.   
Rebel Blob fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 20:08
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Rebel Blob posted:All that budget buys a lot of nice toys: Huh, so the troops stay on the pier which means they're not technically "on the ground". How long does it take to set this up?
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Mar 7, 2024 20:18
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Making a temporary port to access territory you're being kept out of by a nominal ally you're currently both funding and arming, because you can't be bothered to tell that ally to let you cross the border, or the money faucet turns off. Yeah, seems legit. This is 100% some bullshit Biden's PR team cooked up so he can announce it at the SOTU, and credulous liberals can applaud him. It's as likely to happen as that ceasefire deal he touted a few weeks ago, that neither Israel nor Hamas knew about. Esran fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 21:22
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Esran posted:Making a temporary port to access territory you're being kept out of by a nominal ally you're currently both funding and arming, because you can't be bothered to tell that ally to let you cross the border, or the money faucet turns off. Well I guess we'll see later tonight (Eastern US time) whether it's a real plan, or I guess if you're feeling incredulous, whether or not Biden is duping the other countries and aid organizations: the grauniad posted:Biden’s announcement on Thursday night will be followed by a joint statement by the countries and humanitarian organisations involved in the sea corridor. One of the nations involved is the United Arab Emirates, but it is unclear whether they would offer troops to secure the aid bridgehead. Also Israel is a US partner not an ally, thankfully we don't have any actual mutual defense treaties with them. It's a technicality but in this area it's reasonable to want to be specific.
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Mar 7, 2024 21:31
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Kagrenak posted:Well I guess we'll see later tonight (Eastern US time) whether it's a real plan, or I guess if you're feeling incredulous, whether or not Biden is duping the other countries and aid organizations: Gosh, someone should probably tell the state department and Biden that Israel isn't an American ally: https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/article/3564178/biden-says-us-leadership-vital-pledges-support-for-israel-and-ukraine/ Biden's Oval Office Speech posted:"American leadership is what holds the world together," Biden said. "American alliances are what keep us, America, safe. American values are what make us a partner that other nations want to work with."
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Mar 7, 2024 21:42
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Esran posted:Making a temporary port to access territory you're being kept out of by a nominal ally you're currently both funding and arming, because you can't be bothered to tell that ally to let you cross the border, or the money faucet turns off. This is absolutely 100% bullshit I agree, but technically it's more efficient than trucking over the border...
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Mar 7, 2024 21:57
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Huh, so the troops stay on the pier which means they're not technically "on the ground". How long does it take to set this up? Anonymous sources I saw said "I dunno, a couple weeks". If ships are in place they can probably start moving smaller amounts of supplies earlier if they want, and I don't know how reliable the anonymous sources are.
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Mar 7, 2024 21:57
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rscott posted:Gosh, someone should probably tell the state department and Biden that Israel isn't an American ally: An off the cuff remark isn't a formal defense pact. This exceedingly embarrassing State department page about Israel spells out that we consider Israel an important partner: https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/israel/ Contrast to Japan: https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/Japan/ See also Ukraine, which uses the strengthening partnership language: https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/Ukraine/ Contrast with Bulgaria, a NATO ally: https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-bulgaria/
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Mar 7, 2024 22:12
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Jaxyon posted:This is absolutely 100% bullshit I agree, but technically it's more efficient than trucking over the border... I don't think Israel's objection to opening the Rafah Crossing is logistical efficiency, but sure. Kagrenak posted:Also Israel is a US partner not an ally, thankfully we don't have any actual mutual defense treaties with them. It's a technicality but in this area it's reasonable to want to be specific. As you said, it's a technicality. The US-Israel relationship is much closer than what "ally" usually implies. Most US allies aren't being directly funded and armed by the US, nor are most of them receiving endless political cover for genocide. The US also doesn't hold the kind of leverage over most of their allies that they do over Israel, refusal to use said leverage aside. I think ignoring the legal paperwork is useful in this case, because it might lead you to believe is that the US relationship to Israel is just like the relationship the US has to several other countries, or that they're less tied to Israel than the allies they have on paper, and I just don't think that's the case.
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Mar 7, 2024 22:32
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Kagrenak posted:An off the cuff remark isn't a formal defense pact. This exceedingly embarrassing State department page about Israel spells out that we consider Israel an important partner: 
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Mar 7, 2024 22:45
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