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Nebakenezzer posted:So in keeping with danger and really broadly, chemistry, say you had an electric car, and say that electric car was caught in a HEMP attack. If the attack managed to short circuit the battery, what would happen? Lithium fire? Explosion? It wouldn't short circuit the battery, because car batteries are well isolated and batteries in general aren't really affected by EMP. I guess something crazy could happen, like the contactor gets welded shut, and the IGBTs in the inverter go into shoot-through, and that causes a fire, but really it's just gonna fry the electronics.
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Mar 8, 2024 08:19
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I hate it when the igbts in my inverters go shoot-through
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Mar 8, 2024 08:52
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Elviscat posted:It wouldn't short circuit the battery, because car batteries are well isolated and batteries in general aren't really affected by EMP. contactors aren't going to weld due to an EMP, that's a crapshoot at thousands of amps.
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Mar 8, 2024 12:13
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Kwyndig posted:If I remember correctly the problem with lithium does is that the battery kind provide their own oxidizer so you can't really put them out except via heat dumping and that's unfeasible with the temperatures involved. Lithium batteries are dangerous chemistry but: Some types of lithium battery chemistry are more safe than others. The problem with them is multi-layered: -the solvents are flammable and are mild oxidizers. -Lithium can and will rip oxygens off of many things., this includes the other salts that make up the cathode, which is actually where most of the oxygen comes from. -high heat leads to more oxygen being liberated which leads to more burning to more oxygen and thats how you get thermal runaway. Lithium Iron Phosphate is a good one, trades some performance and weight for predictable and slow, low-ish temperature burning when punctured and a high tolerance for temperature before runaway even at high charge. Phosphate hangs onto its oxygen better than cobalt and manganese so that limits the rate at which lithium can yank them off, Rigged Death Trap has a new favorite as of 15:56 on Mar 8, 2024 |
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Mar 8, 2024 12:27
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ScreenDoorThrillr posted:contactors aren't going to weld due to an EMP, that's a crapshoot at thousands of amps. Yeah, that'd be crazy.
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Mar 8, 2024 13:48
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phosphate is the salt/ester of choice for the sexiest biochemical process and ATP is the sexiest molecule.
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Mar 8, 2024 14:16
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Cranappleberry posted:phosphate is the salt/ester of choice for the sexiest biochemical process and ATP is the sexiest molecule. Phosphoric acids pretty cool too.
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Mar 8, 2024 16:11
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Yeah, hail Satan etc.
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Mar 8, 2024 16:14
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Elviscat posted:It wouldn't short circuit the battery, because car batteries are well isolated and batteries in general aren't really affected by EMP. Yeah, I guess I was wondering if a HEMP could put the batteries in a runaway discharge state, so they'd overheat and catch on fire/explode. It'd be a nasty effect in a parking lot full of Teslas.
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Mar 8, 2024 19:41
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EMP phenomena or weapons cause damage by inducing currents in conductors. If the conductors are small enough and the current that's induced is high enough, the conductors can melt or short-circuit or burn out. This is why EMPs are especially damaging to microelectronics: the microscopic wires and traces inside the integrated circuits generally can't handle even a small amount of excess current. The battery connectors, on the other hand, are big beefy strips of copper designed explicitly to handle huge currents. Like hundreds of amps continuously. The batteries themselves can each handle at least a couple dozen amps for short periods. High altitude EMP-induced currents aren't anywhere near that level; the physics just doesn't allow it. To get that sort of induced current you'd probably need to set off a very large EPFCG right next to the car and, well, that device is also a regular old bomb so the EMP effect in that case is kinda moot. So no, the hypothetical EMP weapons is not going to blow up the electric cars' battery packs. It could certainly still disable the vehicle, but it'll do that just by frying the computers. Sagebrush has a new favorite as of 19:53 on Mar 8, 2024 |
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Mar 8, 2024 19:50
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Mustached Demon posted:Phosphoric acids pretty cool too. agreed. One of the pchem and/or analytical chem labs trying to titrate the exact moment the third proton goes into solution
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Mar 8, 2024 22:45
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zedprime posted:Hail Satan Correct thread title (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 8, 2024 23:36
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Nebakenezzer posted:Yeah, I guess I was wondering if a HEMP could put the batteries in a runaway discharge state, so they'd overheat and catch on fire/explode. It'd be a nasty effect in a parking lot full of Teslas. If the end result you want is a battery fire, you're about 500x more likely to end up with the EMP damaging the charge controller and getting it to cheerfully overcharge the batteries than to actually damage the batteries themselves.
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Mar 9, 2024 01:31
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You might latchup the switches in the motor controller and cause a meltdown that way
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Mar 9, 2024 04:55
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ScreenDoorThrillr posted:You might latchup the switches in the motor controller and cause a meltdown that way Yeah, EMPing the primary motor IGBTs and getting the result of 'yes, you are now 100% ON' would be a failure mode liable to cause a great deal of issues. With all the other poo poo that would be broken with an EMP powerful enough to cause gate breakdown in IGBTs big enough for a 200KW motor would probably preclude the preamble and safety checks needed to actually power them, but if you nuked the car mid-drive, who knows what'll happen.
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Mar 9, 2024 06:24
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:Yeah, EMPing the primary motor IGBTs and getting the result of 'yes, you are now 100% ON' would be a failure mode liable to cause a great deal of issues. Except IGBTs don't have an "on" they control frequency and voltage via rapid, controlled switching, if the electronics controlling them don't command them to switch, they won't, which is why I proposed shoot-through* as a still incredible mechanism. *IGBTs act like a set of switches, they create an AC sine-wave by rapidly switching between the negative and positive from the battery, if both "switches" shut at the same time it creates a short circuit, and the whole thing fails in a visually impressive manner.
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Mar 9, 2024 08:16
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Sagebrush posted:EMP phenomena or weapons cause damage by inducing currents in conductors. If the conductors are small enough and the current that's induced is high enough, the conductors can melt or short-circuit or burn out. This is why EMPs are especially damaging to microelectronics: the microscopic wires and traces inside the integrated circuits generally can't handle even a small amount of excess current. E3 induces currents in conductors proportional to their length, so even with a Carrington-level event which can generate currents in transmission lines high enough to burn out transformers across the hemisphere, the length of a conductor inside a given car isn't going to care. So basically ME TOO.
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Mar 9, 2024 08:26
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Yeah either you have really long lines for the electric field to act on, or you have really fragile components that are upset by the tiniest surge. Power electronics in a vehicle would be some of the last things to go.
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Mar 9, 2024 08:33
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Elviscat posted:Except IGBTs don't have an "on" they control frequency and voltage via rapid, controlled switching, if the electronics controlling them don't command them to switch, they won't, which is why I proposed shoot-through* as a still incredible mechanism. Yes, so this means that when they're 100% on/conducting, the first thing that will happen is that the motor will violently lock up from the now continuous instead of rotating magnetic field, so the wheels will lock up (probably, depending on the motor power - a 70kW motor won't be able to stall so hard that the wheels will lock up, i think, but the bigass motors they sometimes use definitely do). Uncommanded emergency stop while driving sucks. After a few seconds of continuous uncontrolled current, something will start melting and burning. Likely the motor windings first, then the cables, and as soon as something shorts out the main fuse in the battery pack will blow before the battery itself will go into thermal runaway.
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Mar 9, 2024 11:24
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Nah, to turn an AC induction motor into a generator you need to provide an excitation current, and other deliberate action that fried electronics are not going to plausibly make happen.
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Mar 9, 2024 16:11
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Ah, i was assuming permanent magnet. If they're "conventional" 3 phase induction motors, the motor will just burn up.
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Mar 9, 2024 17:05
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I get it now: the electrical bits of electric cars are not long nor fine, so it doesn't really matter what kinda EMP it is, its a really unlikely vulnerability. Thank you thread, in appreciation please have some of this Palytoxin Chemical formula C129 H223 N3 O54 Preferred IUPAC name a killing word Found in corals and other sorts of marine life, normally the extremely vividly coloured creatures around corals. Poisoning has also happened when the stuff grows in home aquariums, though quote:From intravenous (IV) animal studies the toxic dose (LD50) of palytoxin via IV for humans has been estimated by extrapolation to be between 2.3 and 31.5 micrograms (µg) of palytoxin.[3][30] An acute oral reference dose has been suggested to be 64 µg for a person with weight of 60 kg.[3] Acute reference dose means a dose that can be safely ingested over a short period of time, usually during one meal or one day.[31]
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Mar 9, 2024 18:31
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Nebakenezzer posted:I get it now: the electrical bits of electric cars are not long nor fine, so it doesn't really matter what kinda EMP it is, its a really unlikely vulnerability.    oh
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Mar 9, 2024 21:44
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that's a beefy molecule how would you even pronounce the IUPAC name?
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Mar 9, 2024 21:50
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venus de lmao posted:that's a beefy molecule Over an extremely long period of time.
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Mar 9, 2024 21:52
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Extra  :Animal studies have shown that vasodilators, such as papaverine and isosorbide dinitrate, can be used as antidotes. The animal experiments only showed benefit if the antidotes were injected into the heart immediately following exposure.
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Mar 9, 2024 21:57
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eating some delicious and colorful coral rn tyvm reminds me of maitotoxin, which is the most potent non-protein toxin in mice. Mice because you're not going to test it on humans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitotoxin oh the link to palytoxin has one to maitotoxin lol. And the most potent (or "one of the most potent") toxin is botulinum if people didn't know Cranappleberry has a new favorite as of 22:15 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 22:10
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Yeah, there's a reason that proteins and other large biomolecules have their own special nomenclature. The usual techniques kind of break down when everything you work with is a giant twisting mass of carbons. The empirical chemical formula (C129 H223 N3 O54) is also worthless and doesn't tell you anything about the molecule except that it is very big. Sagebrush has a new favorite as of 22:17 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 22:12
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maitotoxin posted:Since 1996 the Nicolaou research group is involved in an effort to synthesise the molecule via total synthesis[13][14][15][16] I feel like we should be asking questions.
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Mar 9, 2024 22:50
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The Lone Badger posted:I feel like we should be asking questions. a lot of people research total synthesis of compounds even if there is already a biosynthetic pathway. Often the total synthesis is way more complicated and resource intensive. Like, scientists figured out you can synthesize cocaine but its still far more economically viable to grow the plant and extract it.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:15
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Cranappleberry posted:a lot of people research total synthesis of compounds even if there is already a biosynthetic pathway. Often the total synthesis is way more complicated and resource intensive. Like, scientists figured out you can synthesize cocaine but its still far more economically viable to grow the plant and extract it. Sometimes synthetic chemists just synthesize things because they want to show they can.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:21
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Cranappleberry posted:a lot of people research total synthesis of compounds even if there is already a biosynthetic pathway. Often the total synthesis is way more complicated and resource intensive. Like, scientists figured out you can synthesize cocaine but its still far more economically viable to grow the plant and extract it. Someone already easily synthesized cocaine and his name is Dr Jean Michel Jarre.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:30
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Mustached Demon posted:Sometimes synthetic chemists just synthesize things because they want to show they can. If nothing else it seems more likely to get you published.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:32
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We can learn a lot of things from synthesis of compounds from scratch, so it's still worth exploring those pathways.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:36
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Mustached Demon posted:Sometimes synthetic chemists just synthesize things because they want to show they can. yeah. doing a total synthesis of something with 200 carbons is a big flex
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Mar 10, 2024 02:32
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This is the most potent naturally occurring thing I've played with and it always amazes me that it's a terpenoid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvinorin_A Not sure if I should thank or curse the mad genius who whipped that up and shared it out or not.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:12
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I think biochemists are gonna choose to stick with their nomenclature on this one
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Mar 10, 2024 04:18
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Desert Bus posted:This is the most potent naturally occurring thing I've played with and it always amazes me that it's a terpenoid: One of my favorite fun facts is that tylenol acts on the endocannabinoid system.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:30
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The 1856 attempt by Sir William Henry Perkin to synthesize quinine launched the artificial dye industry and thereby the chemical and pharmaceutical industries. It could be done as early as 1944, but to this day it’s still much more economical to get it from cinchona plants. We only recently figured out the molecule’s mechanism of action against the parasites that cause malaria. Platystemon has a new favorite as of 05:57 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 05:53
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Dang It Bhabhi! posted:Someone already easily synthesized cocaine and his name is Dr Jean Michel Jarre. Pretty sure he started with oxygene. Sometime around the equinoxe. I hear it involved some magnetic fields.
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Mar 10, 2024 18:40
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