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Esran posted:I'm talking about how we're discussing whether it's reasonable to believe that Biden was being genuine when he said he expected a deal to be imminent. I've laid out why I believe it is not reasonable. I'd like you to provide evidence for your position that he was, instead of asking "Why would Biden care about a primary that he was already going to win". I don’t believe Biden was lying because he would have literally nothing to gain from it. We already know he was telling the truth about Hamas and Israel approaching the negotiating table. So why would he pretend like a deal is near if he didn’t think it was? About the only reason is if he lied all of the time just out of habit, like Trump does. Which, IMO, he doesn’t
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Mar 8, 2024 19:21
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Kalit posted:So why would he pretend like a deal is near if he didn’t think it was? About the only reason is if he lied all of the time just out of habit, like Trump does. Which, IMO, he doesn’t An alternative reason for saying it that I could find plausible would be that he thought saying it would pressure each party to get the deal done faster because of greater expectations from their respective backyards that one was close. Obviously it didn't work out that way, but if he figured that the alternative was nothing happening anyway and the only thing it stood to cost him was a little embarrassment for being premature, then it might have seemed worth the shot.
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Mar 8, 2024 19:38
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Kalit posted:Why would Biden care about a primary that he was already going to win? If it was right before the general election, you'd have a point about the timing.
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Mar 8, 2024 19:47
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Biden whispering was a barely on topic issue when it was current events a month ago, relitigating it now just looks like an attempt to dodge the attention it would get in USPOL or the electoralism thread, where the behavior and beliefs of Biden are permanently on topic.
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Mar 8, 2024 19:54
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Kalit posted:I don’t believe Biden was lying because he would have literally nothing to gain from it. He has plenty to gain. Lying gives him something to point to when people make noise about how he's doing jack poo poo to stop the genocide. It also serves as PR in general, oh look, he tried so hard to make peace, but it just didn't work out. While there is no chance of him losing a primary outright, it still looks bad to barely scrape by, so there's that too. If Biden were doing nothing, liberals would have a hard time defending him. By appearing to be doing something, while handing Israel a mountain of weaponry, diplomatic cover, and carte blanche to do what they want with the tools Biden is giving them, he gets to support the genocide in material terms, while being able to deny (plausibly to some, apparently) that he's fully in the tank for Israel. This is also why we're getting a plan to make a port in Gaza, instead of Biden simply ordering Netanyahu to open the Rafah Crossing: It provides something to point to that makes it seem like Biden gives a poo poo, while not actually changing anything in real terms. Administration officials are even saying as much: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/biden-disparages-netanyahu-private-hasnt-changed-us-policy-israel-rcna138282 posted:Yet, even as Biden has escalated his rhetoric, he is not yet prepared to make significant policy changes, officials said. He and his aides continue to believe his approach of unequivocally supporting Israel is the right one. Policy changes are the only things that matter. Biden's furrowed brow when talking to the press about Netanyahu changes nothing. Kalit posted:We already know he was telling the truth about Hamas and Israel approaching the negotiating table. That's not what we're talking about. He said a deal was imminent. If Biden had said "Israel and Hamas are negotiating", everyone would have been like "no poo poo, they've been doing that off and on for months". Kalit posted:So why would he pretend like a deal is near if he didn’t think it was? For any of the reasons an American president might care about domestic reputation, including the ones I outlined. Kalit posted:About the only reason is if he lied all of the time just out of habit, like Trump does. Which, IMO, he doesn’t This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. You're just arbitrarily assuming that Biden is an honest guy. Esran fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Mar 8, 2024 |
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Mar 8, 2024 20:16
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Kalit posted:I don’t believe Biden was lying because he would have literally nothing to gain from it. I appreciate the honesty of you stating you believe things without evidence and that is good enough for you (but others have to provide evidence for you to change your mind which you end up ignoring anyways). I'm not sure what the purpose of you discussing here is if you decide a position and use imagination to back it up.
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Mar 8, 2024 20:39
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Esran posted:He has plenty to gain. If he wanted people to know he was trying something for PR points, he would have just stated "I got Hamas back to the negotiating table" and left it at that. That way, he wouldn't be wrong and it would show that he was still doing something. quote:If Biden were doing nothing, liberals would have a hard time defending him. By appearing to be doing something, while handing Israel a mountain of weaponry, diplomatic cover, and carte blanche to do what they want with the tools Biden is giving them, he gets to support the genocide in material terms, while being able to deny (plausibly to some, apparently) that he's fully in the tank for Israel. This is also why we're getting a plan to make a port in Gaza, instead of Biden simply ordering Netanyahu to open the Rafah Crossing: It provides something to point to that makes it seem like Biden gives a poo poo, while not actually changing anything in real terms. quote:That's not what we're talking about. He said a deal was imminent. If Biden had said "Israel and Hamas are negotiating", everyone would have been like "no poo poo, they've been doing that off and on for months". quote:For any of the reasons an American president might care about domestic reputation, including the ones I outlined. quote:This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. You're just arbitrarily assuming that Biden is an honest guy. The Sean posted:I appreciate the honesty of you stating you believe things without evidence and that is good enough for you (but others have to provide evidence for you to change your mind which you end up ignoring anyways). I'm not sure what the purpose of you discussing here is if you decide a position and use imagination to back it up. I'm providing literally as much concrete evidence as Esran is with regards to if Biden is lying or not, so I'm not sure what your point is. None of us are mind readers. Kalit fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Mar 8, 2024 |
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Mar 8, 2024 20:42
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Kalit posted:None of us are mind readers. I understand that but-- Kalit posted:If he wanted people to know he was trying something for PR points, he would have just stated "I got Hamas back to the negotiating table" and left it at that. That way, he wouldn't be wrong and it would show that he was still doing something. --oh, uh, well, I guess some of us are. The Sean fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Mar 8, 2024 |
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Mar 8, 2024 21:28
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Fidelitious posted:What are people's thoughts on this? I was at the original protest in Thornhill. It was definitely jarring to be outside a synagogue protesting but they're selling West Bank land. It's loving awful and should be illegal. There were several rabbis and at least one other Jewish organization out with us, which, as silly as it sounds, made me feel better about it.
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Mar 8, 2024 21:37
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https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/politics/floating-pier-troops-aid-gaza/index.html An update on the whole emergency aid port in Gaza, seems to throw some cold water on all the should we say, irrational exuberance, demonstrated yesterday. The Pentagon is reporting that it's going to take at least a month and possibly two to create the temporary port, they still don't know who's actually going to distribute the aid once it's offloaded, and they're stressing that the overland crossings are actually the most effective way to distribute aid, all of which seems to directly contradict what a lot of posters both in this thread and in the USCE thread were stating.
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Mar 8, 2024 22:11
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https://twitter.com/kann_news/status/1766198667147419825 I hope this is some kind of AI video and not real, otherwise it's beyond parody. Biden wants Israel to provide security for the port that's being built because Israel won't let aid through the border crossings. This is getting to "and Mexico's gonna pay for it" levels of dumb. Esran fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Mar 8, 2024 |
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Mar 8, 2024 22:52
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So the port can take up to two months to implement and the Israelis are going to provide security for it even though they're the ones preventing aid from getting through on land This is a farcical and evil president.
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Mar 8, 2024 22:56
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Esran posted:https://twitter.com/kann_news/status/1766198667147419825 That reads as "they better ensure it won't get bombed". Not as Israeli troops being on American ships or anything. The main threat to off-shore assets is Israel, no one else.
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Mar 8, 2024 23:05
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this is such a bizarre combination of cruelty, stupidity and embarrassment
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Mar 8, 2024 23:05
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Esran posted:https://twitter.com/kann_news/status/1766198667147419825 Haha, I actually predicted something like this in the VFW thread. Build a new ingress point and hand it to the attackers.
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Mar 8, 2024 23:13
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Haha, I actually predicted something like this in the VFW thread. Build a new ingress point and hand it to the attackers. What ingress points does Israel need the US to build? The country has air dominance over the Levant, can drive willy nilly anywhere in Gaza with its Army, and do whatever gently caress it pleases. The troops are already in Gaza. Are they gonna board ships so they can get back into Gaza? Reported Israeli troop movements last updated today at Financial Times. The limits of advance are not prevented by any kind of conventional military force creating a front line or anything, but rather the Israeli Army doing whatever the gently caress it does (crimes) and advancing slowly. Where do you intend in your scenario that they're gonna sail to? Cyprus? https://www.ft.com/content/42bbe534-8a0d-4ba8-9cc6-f84936d87196 
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Mar 8, 2024 23:16
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They are building a landing and giving it to the attackers. The President of the United states just said so.
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Mar 8, 2024 23:37
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:They are building a landing and giving it to the attackers. The President of the United states just said so. I don't really think that's the most reasonable way to interpret what Biden said, the United States isn't putting any infrastructure on the ground
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Mar 8, 2024 23:51
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rscott posted:I don't really think that's the most reasonable way to interpret what Biden said, the United States isn't putting any infrastructure on the ground If you build a piece of infrastructure that's just right next to the ground and, in fact, connects to it via a bridge that you also build, saying it's not putting any infrastructure 'on the ground' seems like splitting hairs to me?
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Mar 8, 2024 23:54
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I generally try to restrain myself from making confident predictions here (which admittedly cedes the field to less cautious posting), but I'm also pretty hesitant to take "Biden drops a line [that I haven't listened to yet]" as a detailed and precisely worded assessment. The sources in this cnn article are specifically not talking about giving Israel security control of the land end of the pier: https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/politics/floating-pier-troops-aid-gaza/index.html but rather are along the lines of "I dunno, other regional allies or something"
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Mar 8, 2024 23:55
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rscott posted:I don't really think that's the most reasonable way to interpret what Biden said, the United States isn't putting any infrastructure on the ground Also similarly to the weird post last page about the US "helping Israel with infrastructure to develop the oil [sic] fields off the coast of Gaza," they don't need a temporary floating pier to achieve the same aims. Israel already was illegally developing the natural gas fields and they issued permits for that in July 2023 and they already move around the less dense areas of the strip with impunity. There's no front that they need a beachhead behind or anything like that. There's plenty to criticize with this plan without making up things. The worst (and imo unfortunately one of the most likely) reading of Biden's statement is that Israel will still be allowed to inspect the trucks coming in which I sure hope is not the case. Google Jeb Bush posted:I generally try to restrain myself from making confident predictions here (which admittedly cedes the field to less cautious posting), but I'm also pretty hesitant to take "Biden drops a line [that I haven't listened to yet]" as a detailed and precisely worded assessment. The sources in this cnn article are specifically not talking about giving Israel security control of the land end of the pier: Very much hoping this is the more accurate picture.
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Mar 8, 2024 23:57
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shimmy shimmy posted:If you build a piece of infrastructure that's just right next to the ground and, in fact, connects to it via a bridge that you also build, saying it's not putting any infrastructure 'on the ground' seems like splitting hairs to me? Because a pier and/or a causeway isn't a military base? Kagrenak posted:Also similarly to the weird post last page about the US "helping Israel with infrastructure to develop the oil [sic] fields off the coast of Gaza," they don't need a temporary floating pier to achieve the same aims. Israel already was illegally developing the natural gas fields and they issued permits for that in July 2023 and they already move around the less dense areas of the strip with impunity. There's no front that they need a beachhead behind or anything like that. Israeli officials are going to conduct inspections in Cyprus per this Guardian article, which is another way they can throw a wrench into the gears. I don't think anyone knows who is going to be responsible for it once it's on shore. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/07/gaza-floating-port-aid-palestinians-impact
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Mar 9, 2024 00:01
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Yeah I saw something vague about inspections, thanks for the Guardian article. One of Israel's favorite aid truck moves when the total psychos aren't driving the bus on that particular day is to insist on thorough inspections and then slow walk em and oh oops guess throughput is down 80%, what a shame.
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Mar 9, 2024 00:19
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:They are building a landing and giving it to the attackers. The President of the United states just said so. Finally the IDF will be able to get into Gaza. Biden has removed the last obstacle.
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Mar 9, 2024 01:17
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By time this port gets built, we'll be well into mass starvation killing scores of people. The food situation is already reaching critical. Unless they're gonna drop a magical port module from orbit, thousands will already be dead. The only solution is tying continued aid and support for Israel to their letting trucks through, like yesterday.
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Mar 9, 2024 02:22
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Love Rat posted:Unless they're gonna drop a magical port module from orbit, thousands will already be dead. Elon's ears just perked up. Love Rat posted:The only solution is tying continued aid and support for Israel to their letting trucks through, like yesterday. Absolutely, and it's a thing Biden could do with a single phone call. All this other bullshit is a smokescreen. I guess if you just lie big, it'll get people discussing the minutiae.
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Mar 9, 2024 08:26
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Kalit posted:Stop making assumptions. I believe Biden would lie if there's enough benefit from it. Which this is far from. From what evidence have you drawn this conclusion? Because there is a track record of Biden saying things that are untrue for no apparent gain. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/08/31/biden-loves-retell-certain-stories-some-arent-credible/
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Mar 9, 2024 14:19
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Love Rat posted:By time this port gets built, we'll be well into mass starvation killing scores of people. The food situation is already reaching critical. Unless they're gonna drop a magical port module from orbit, thousands will already be dead. Well yeah, the answer is "do both". Also, as I posted before, UN estimates from late January suggest that thousands are already dead from malnutrition related issues (probably exacerbated by dirty water issues), we certainly don't want it to get worse. I happen to think the correlation between the timing of US complaints about aid and Israel temporarily being less lovely about food / water / medicine isn't a total coincidence, but lots more needs to get through.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:41
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Esran posted:He has plenty to gain. I would argue that in this case the PR was very bad, though: it showed America and in fact the entire world that he's a decrepit freak who has no idea what is going on, much less have any control over any of it. It turned out that millions of people's impression of Biden as an old and weak leader was in fact correct.
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Mar 9, 2024 21:11
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hooman posted:From what evidence have you drawn this conclusion? I’m starting to think Biden doesn’t or can’t really comprehend what is going on and is winging it to cover that up. Like the mental faculties are straight up not there to grasp the enormity of what’s going on, and to him it’s just another Bad Time in the Middle East, so stay the course. Would any other president handle it better? Unlikely! But I do think Biden’s actions and inactions are uniquely lovely, likely due to it not loving clicking that there is a genocide and we have so much blood on our hands. Among all the bonkers decisions this administration has made, actively fueling a genocide will be the stand out gently caress up, and rightfully so.
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Mar 9, 2024 22:48
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teen witch posted:I’m starting to think Biden doesn’t or can’t really comprehend what is going on and is winging it to cover that up. Like the mental faculties are straight up not there to grasp the enormity of what’s going on, and to him it’s just another Bad Time in the Middle East, so stay the course. There is no evidence to support this at all, also if you think his actions in regards to Israel are uniquely lovely you haven't been paying attention to what past presidents have done.
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Mar 9, 2024 23:57
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socialsecurity posted:There is no evidence to support this at all, also if you think his actions in regards to Israel are uniquely lovely you haven't been paying attention to what past presidents have done. This is a supremely horrible situation that many presidents didn't have to face and to see him get a pass like this is pretty gross.
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Mar 10, 2024 00:28
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socialsecurity posted:There is no evidence to support this at all, also if you think his actions in regards to Israel are uniquely lovely you haven't been paying attention to what past presidents have done. Joe Biden is uniquely lovely when compared to other Democrats in regards to Israel. In fact, he actively undermined Obama and Clinton's efforts at peace talks during the previous Democratic administration and described himself as Bib's "best loving friend": How Joe Biden Became America's Top Israel Hawk posted:After Biden became vice president in 2009, he stuck with his “no daylight” stance. In a memoir published last year, Netanyahu wrote that Biden made his willingness to help clear during an early meeting in Washington. “You don’t have too many friends here, buddy,” Biden reportedly said. “I’m the one friend you do have. So call me when you need to.” The material support he's provided to Israel since October 7--and by this, I mean the 100+ secret transfers of weapons and ammunition--has lead to an unprecedented number of Palestinian deaths. I think "uniquely lovely" is a pretty apt description of him.
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Mar 10, 2024 00:29
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hadji murad posted:This is a supremely horrible situation that many presidents didn't have to face and to see him get a pass like this is pretty gross. Pretty sure this is giving a pass to all previous presidents. What unique things has Biden done here that other presidents didn't or wouldn't? Do you think we starting giving military aid to Israel on day 1 of Biden's presidency? B B posted:Joe Biden is uniquely lovely when compared to other Democrats in regards to Israel. In fact, he actively undermined Obama and Clinton's efforts at peace talks during the previous Democratic administration: The 100 secret transfers that we all know about? We've given aid to Israel during all their previous attacks on Gaza too, arms sales are not a new or unique thing. All American presidents have been lovely about Israel pretending this is a new thing is just giving the US a pass on previous atrocities. socialsecurity fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 00:29
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I mean at this point the hospital system has collapsed. People are starving to death in Gaza. Pretty much no residental builds are standing, and all of Gaza are refugees now. When in the past has a US president overseen anything even close to this? Maybe I guess the founding of Israel itself but its been 70 years right?
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Mar 10, 2024 00:56
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Biden's a genuine Zionist to a degree that I don't think many presidents have been in the past. https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-a-longtime-friend-israel-critic-of-settlements-may-be-at-odds-over-iran/ quote:Less known is a meeting with her successor Menachem Begin a few years later, which The New York Times at the time described as a “highly emotional confrontation.” I haven't seen much to suggest he's changed his tune since this meeting, on the contrary, in fact. Both George Bush and Ronald Reagan strongarmed Israel to stop attacks that caused far fewer casualties than this latest adventure. He's been critical of some Israeli actions, but only insofar as it jeopardizes Israel's existence & its existence as a Jewish state.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:01
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E2M2 posted:I mean at this point the hospital system has collapsed. People are starving to death in Gaza. Pretty much no residental builds are standing, and all of Gaza are refugees now. When in the past has a US president overseen anything even close to this? Maybe I guess the founding of Israel itself but its been 70 years right? Seeing different estimates but as of sometime in January it looks like 30-40% of residences were still standing. More than 60% are displaced (hard to get perfect numbers) because returning to your intact or intact-ish home while Israel is still attacking is a dicey proposition. That's not stopping some people though, which is part of why we're getting lots of stories of "this family returned to their home in North Gaza and are now living on the razors edge even when Israel isn't actually shooting at them".
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Mar 10, 2024 01:04
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hadji murad posted:This is a supremely horrible situation that many presidents didn't have to face and to see him get a pass like this is pretty gross. I also don’t think he understands how horrible this situation is. Why? Likely for a multitude of reasons. I think one of the reasons that’s overlooked is that his brain doesn’t connect “genocide bad” and “you are participating in a genocide”, as if it were an indecipherable language, despite people telling him plain as loving day what’s going on. I keep wondering how this moment in time will look a decade from now. In my heart of hearts I hope it’s plain as day and undeniable that this is a genocide, that only kooks and bigots are denialists. I hope there are Nuremberg trials and truth and reconciliations to state undoubtedly who did this, why it happened, and the horrors that occurred. But even then I’m having my doubts that people will accept it, and that we will still be in this living hell of people cheering this genocide on. This whole event has been a serious mask-off moment for me and it’s hard to handle, mentally (apologies for my word vomit). Though I’m surprised in a lot of people I’d never expect, who are actively calling out that this is supremely hosed up.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:06
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socialsecurity posted:Pretty sure this is giving a pass to all previous presidents. What unique things has Biden done here that other presidents didn't or wouldn't? Do you think we starting giving military aid to Israel on day 1 of Biden's presidency? He's facilitating the murder of tens of thousands of women and children which other recent presidents haven't done to the Palestinians. The numbers of dead make his unique ghoulishness readily apparent.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:11
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teen witch posted:Probably a better way of saying it than I did, I’m just shocked with how he’s handling the situation. Like other presidents would have handled this poorly, but not to this degree. Salt in the wound that he’s got a blank check to let this happen, literally or figuratively. quote:
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