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Bucky Fullminster posted:My concerns about Biden’s age are based entirely on watching him walk and watching him talk with my own eyes, they have nothing to do with media  The right wing propaganda impacts how we understand what we see with our own eyes. When he stutters we are primed to think "Biden old" not "Biden has stuttered for decades". Etc. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 12:45
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
The implications can be kinda scary but, yeah, propaganda works. On everyone. Even if in my hidden heart of hearts I don't believe right wing bullshit, it doesn't matter. It's in all spaces, at all times, for decades and decades. Just the simple fact that I am constantly forced to hear that message forever and everywhere means it is going to color my perceptions and skew the range of topics available to me. I'm forced to think about their bullshit constantly and it literally drowns out other thoughts because of limited human "bandwidth", so to speak, at any given time.
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Mar 9, 2024 13:04
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Bucky Fullminster posted:My concerns about Biden’s age are based entirely on watching him walk and watching him talk with my own eyes, they have nothing to do with media narratives. How often do you see/hear him walk and talk with your own eyes? The SOTU was a pretty good recent opportunity to see him on TV for a while and it sounds like you skipped it. I have never actually seen him in person
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Mar 9, 2024 13:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
For everyone else, sure, not me though. Seriously though I know what you mean, but also come on. JesustheDarkLord posted:How often do you see/hear him walk and talk with your own eyes? The SOTU was a pretty good recent opportunity to see him on TV for a while and it sounds like you skipped it. I have never actually seen him in person I'm not American, so not that much, but I watch a few speeches and press conferences when I can. A president should have more vigour, and a candidate should definitely have more vigour. e - \/\/ yes I made sure to watch the whole way through, and it should not be an "oh phew he did it this time" situation Bucky Fullminster fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 13:28
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He has a lot of vigor, as seen in the speech he just gave. Have you watched any speeches or press conferences all the way through and not just the little pieces that are shared around? I certainly haven't watched many over the last few years.
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Mar 9, 2024 13:40
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Bucky Fullminster posted:My concerns about Biden’s age are based entirely on watching him walk and watching him talk with my own eyes, they have nothing to do with media narratives. The videos you've seen are part of the media narrative, don't be so naive. The owners of the media companies want this to be a subject of debate and discussion for a reason you should be asking yourself what that reason is. It may be a legitimate concern but don't for a moment lose sight of the fact that someone is making the decision on what gets focused on. I don't personally think that it's a legitimate concern. Biden didn't suddenly become an old man. The public knew how old he was in 2020 and they chose him knowing how old he would be in 2024. Biden was not my first choice but he has far exceeded even my optimistic expectations. No he's not perfect but the comparison to the alternative isn't even loving close and frankly the discussion of his age is the most obvious attempt to distract from the far more important fact that the GOP has went full open White Christian Nationalist (Nazi) and are trying to align the United States with the Authoritarian block which would be a huge loving problem for everyone. And frankly I look sideways at anyone who spends more energy attacking Biden instead of focusing on the very clear and obvious threat to basic human decency that the Fash as currently embodied by the GOP present.
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Mar 9, 2024 14:21
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Skex posted:The videos you've seen are part of the media narrative, don't be so naive. The videos I've seen are from the White House youtube channel
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Mar 9, 2024 14:37
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
Does propaganda run by the Democrats and Democratic friendly sources not change our perception as well? Why is it only people who are concerned about the fact that Biden has slowed are the propagandized ones, and people who don't think that are clear eyed? I think Biden did a good job of projecting strength and stability and it was a good showing for him to come back strong after a few of his recent gaffes. I ended up watching it at 1.25 speed and because I wanted to hear what he was saying, but at quite a few points didn't even notice that it was sped up because he just sounded like the Biden I remember from 2008. I don't personally think Biden slowing is a huge problem, but that's my judgement of what is important and not everyone will weight factors the same way.
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Mar 9, 2024 14:40
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hooman posted:Does propaganda run by the Democrats and Democratic friendly sources not change our perception as well? Why is it only people who are concerned about the fact that Biden has slowed are the propagandized ones, and people who don't think that are clear eyed? If the democrats were any good at propaganda Trump's biggest achievement would be a cancelled reality show.
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Mar 9, 2024 14:48
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:If the democrats were any good at propaganda Trump's biggest achievement would be a cancelled reality show. EDIT: Do you have any sources to back up this assertion? hooman fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 14:56
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Bucky Fullminster posted:The videos I've seen are from the White House youtube channel So you are going to pretend that your view is not in any way influenced by the gallons of ink spent on raising the question of Biden's age constantly since he was even discussed as an option in 2019?
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Mar 9, 2024 14:58
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hooman posted:Do you have any sources to back up the assertion that Democratic Party propaganda has no effect on people?
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Mar 9, 2024 14:59
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Ravenfood posted:That's not what they said. If that's not what they said, then they didn't address the content of what they quoted: hooman posted:Does propaganda run by the Democrats and Democratic friendly sources not change our perception as well? Why is it only people who are concerned about the fact that Biden has slowed are the propagandized ones, and people who don't think that are clear eyed? EDIT: Unless they were agreeing with me, that Democratic friendly progaganda also influences our views? EDIT2: I will amend my above post to be sure I am not misrepresenting them. hooman fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 15:01
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Skex posted:So you are going to pretend that your view is not in any way influenced by the gallons of ink spent on raising the question of Biden's age constantly since he was even discussed as an option in 2019? It's very weird to think that someone would be unable to have this view independent of that ink. He walks like an old man dude. You're sending him in to the toughest gig in the world. Good luck. If we have different views on his viability, that's fine, no point going round in circles.
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Mar 9, 2024 15:11
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Bucky Fullminster posted:It's very weird to think that someone would be unable to have this view independent of that ink. I think everyone has their views skewed by the narratives that they are exposed to. As Hieronymous correctly points out here: Hieronymous Alloy posted:The right wing propaganda impacts how we understand what we see with our own eyes. When he stutters we are primed to think "Biden old" not "Biden has stuttered for decades". Etc. However, equally you can flip all those statements and say: "The Democratic Party propaganda impacts how we understand what we see with our own eyes. When he confuses leaders and countries we are primed to think "Biden has stuttered for decades" not "Biden old"." When you do this it seems silly to us because we are primed to believe that we are not influenced by propaganda of people who we agree with. I don't think that "You only believe x because of propaganda" is a useful or fair counter argument, as it simply cannot be responded to. Nobody can prove they are propaganda immune and the see-er of absolute truth so there is no way to address any person making that argument, it is a line of debate that denies the existence of competing narratives and assumes that cognitive bias exists only in the person against whom the argument is made. I'm not arguing that there has not been a lot of discussion about Biden's age, but I don't think that any concerns about it can be considered to only exist because of that discussion.
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Mar 9, 2024 15:25
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Bucky Fullminster posted:It's very weird to think that someone would be unable to have this view independent of that ink. And yet you seem to be claiming that very thing. In response to Skex noting that the mainstream media is putting its thumb on the scale by promoting a "Biden is too old" narrative (while conspicuously not doing that for Trump), you said that you were basing your opinion on official White House videos. That implies that you feel as if you are above influence from the prevalent media narrative.
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Mar 9, 2024 16:02
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There is an absolutely absurd imbalance in sources of propaganda in the country. How many Democratic versions of Fox are there? How many Republican versions of Fox are there? Even the sources constantly attacked by Republicans as far left Marx-loving Antifa haven mega-socialist triple-commie pinko Lenin-followers are at best, on a really good day, centrist-ish corporate profit seeking enterprises that have been both-sides-ing all topics at all times my entire life. Not exactly a shining bastion of counter-narratives to the right wing media empires and their propaganda.
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Mar 9, 2024 16:08
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Bucky Fullminster posted:It's very weird to think that someone would be unable to have this view independent of that ink. There's no such thing as an independent view. Like it or not we're all influenced by the sea of propaganda we swim in. Sure, Biden's old. But you don't know him personally. Literally every image you've ever seen of him has been framed by one party or another, and because of bird food bathtub posted:There is an absolutely absurd imbalance in sources of propaganda in the country. How many Democratic versions of Fox are there? How many Republican versions of Fox are there? Pretty much everybody is going to reflexively, to some extent or another, interpret what they see about Biden through the lens that right wing media has told them to see him through. The only way to really avoid that is to avoid media generally and if you're posting here you aren't doing that. said another way, Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh yeah absolutely we are all morons constantly falling for poo poo Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 16:16
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bird food bathtub posted:There is an absolutely absurd imbalance in sources of propaganda in the country. How many Democratic versions of Fox are there? How many Republican versions of Fox are there? It doesn't help when liberals try to ban left-wing leaning sources: https://deadline.com/2024/03/tiktok-trump-biden-1235850633/
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Mar 9, 2024 16:22
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hooman posted:If that's not what they said, then they didn't address the content of what they quoted: I think believing that Democratic propaganda exists but is less prevalent and maybe less effective than GOP propaganda is perfectly consistent, especially since institutions tend to lean towards conservative views and so will amplify them of their own accord. I know my views are biased by the media I consume both voluntarily and involuntarily.
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Mar 9, 2024 16:24
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You’re making this a lot harder than it needs to be. I’m not in America. I don’t consume your media. I watch Biden directly. I think “I’m not sure he’s up to this”. Then people in here tell me I only think that because of propaganda. Which I reject. It’s literal gaslighting and y’all need to cut it out. There being propaganda about it doesn’t necessarily mean there’s no truth to it. He’s not fine. Especially not for a job of this magnitude and importance. Will he pull it off? Maybe. His opponent is arguably in worse shape, but they play loving dirty. So I’d feel a lot more comfortable with someone on stronger footing.
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Mar 9, 2024 16:29
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I wish I could see how virile and authoritative Joe Biden really is, but sadly my eyes have been clouded by Republican propaganda so I have to witness the grim spectacle of a shuffling, whispering marionette thirsting for icecream and genocide.
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Mar 9, 2024 16:34
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koolkal posted:It doesn't help when liberals try to ban left-wing leaning sources: https://deadline.com/2024/03/tiktok-trump-biden-1235850633/ TikTok is not a left-leaning source, it's a platform for a huge number of different things with a wide spectrum of viewpoints. To the extent that it trends young it also trends left, but 10 years ago people would call Twitter a major resource for leftist organizing and we can all observe how true that is now. Obviously platforms shape the conversation with rules and enforcement, so it's not that they can't impact the breadth of takes available (like how Facebook will ban you for saying "white men are assholes"), but it's not even slightly similar to left-wing Fox News
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Mar 9, 2024 16:35
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You don't need to see the man or any propaganda to say that 81 is too old to be president. 77 or whatever trump is is also too old though, and trump has taken way worse care of himself. It sucks but those are our choices and Trump's health and mental state is worse than Biden's so everyone needs to shut up and stop clutching to pearls about it. Edit: or whatever the gently caress their actual ages are...
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Mar 9, 2024 16:38
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A huge amount of odious crap circulates through tiktok, it is the current retreat of every idiot grift targeted at the youth outside long form podcasts. Its a nuance free environment in its raw engagement phase, that tends to boil up the most extreme positions.
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Mar 9, 2024 16:41
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BougieBitch posted:TikTok is not a left-leaning source, it's a platform for a huge number of different things with a wide spectrum of viewpoints. What exactly are you arguing here by referencing the change in Twitter?
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Mar 9, 2024 16:45
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I don't care if Joe Biden is just a puppet controlled remotely by his bitey dogs: he's still better than an orange sack of lard controlled by the Russians.
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Mar 9, 2024 16:45
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Barrel Cactaur posted:A huge amount of odious crap circulates through tiktok, it is the current retreat of every idiot grift targeted at the youth outside long form podcasts. Its a nuance free environment in its raw engagement phase, that tends to boil up the most extreme positions. But enough about Facebook! Seriously though it’s all social media, deciding one channel is worse is just working the refs because you hate what is popular on that channel. If FOX was a streaming service invented two years ago we might be having the same conversation right now about the perfidious Australian algorithms.
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Mar 9, 2024 16:49
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Ah yes the famously leftist app, Tiktok
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Mar 9, 2024 16:54
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Ravenfood posted:I think believing that Democratic propaganda exists but is less prevalent and maybe less effective than GOP propaganda is perfectly consistent, especially since institutions tend to lean towards conservative views and so will amplify them of their own accord. I agree with what you have said here. I have spent the last while looking for a meta-analysis or data about the prevalence of propaganda without much joy. I have found that data suggesting that right wing news outlets tended to skew harder right than equivalent movement in centrist or left outlets. Because while I agree with your assessment, I also know that my own biases make me biased in my assessments of bias. https://theconversation.com/republicans-and-democrats-see-news-bias-only-in-stories-that-clearly-favor-the-other-party-192282 I did find this good article from the Washington Post which included a nice heatmap of Biden monthly mentions with 'age', 'mental' or 'old' across various media outlets, but also showed perception of his acuity had been slipping since '21. It also unfortunately doesn't control for whether this is a purely negative on Biden or a "both sides too old" piece. I'd like to have seen the heatmap for the same search with Trump for comparison purposes but they didn't have it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/02/16/biden-age-concerns/ At the end of the day, my personal view that there is a negative media narrative about Biden's age is actually neither here nor there. I am objecting to using the counter argument against concerns about his age of "you only believe this because of propaganda", because I don't think that is in any way productive or useful. EDIT: Missed word 'negative'. hooman fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 16:58
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Bucky Fullminster posted:You’re making this a lot harder than it needs to be. By definition, if you're not in America (and more specifically, inside the White House), you cannot be watching Biden "directly." You are watching him through the filtered perspectives of whatever sources are your medium. Are you trying to tell me that you have never, not once, consumed media or news from your home country about Biden?
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Mar 9, 2024 16:59
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koolkal posted:What exactly are you arguing here by referencing the change in Twitter? That if "provide left-leaning content" isn't part of the central vision and leadership suite it is inherently subject to disruption and shouldn't be counted as "a left-leaning source", at least not in response to the question of "who is left-wing Fox" like the post you quoted. Even when Twitter was actually pretty leftist in terms of posters, everyone knew that @jack was completely mercenary and the Twitter policies were easily twisted. Similarly, I don't see how you can frame TikTok as being inherently leftist - yeah, younger and therefore more left people often post on there, and probably you are directed to content you agree with so it seems leftist to you, but overall TikTok is mostly for, like, thirst traps or food videos or whatever. If it closes down, the ACTUAL leftist sources, whichever people post leftist content on there, can migrate to whatever the next one is and it will probably be net neutral. If you have some evidence that the leadership of TikTok or their mission was directly attempting to support leftist viewpoints then I think it's on you to show that, because the default assumption for any company should be "out to make money and expand the user base". The fact that any arbitrary unfiltered clip of Fox news can end up on TikTok and not vice versa is really key here - Fox has an editorial stance in a way that TikTok does not (beyond the broadest "no porn" TOS poo poo, which is generally to avoid lawsuits) BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 17:03
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I don't go to TikTok a lot, so I only know about it through the TikTok Investors Twitter account. https://twitter.com/TikTokInvestors/status/1765230624485576843 https://twitter.com/TikTokInvestors/status/1765122043140526374
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Mar 9, 2024 17:08
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I'd be more sympathetic to the 'not immune to propaganda' statements if they weren't constantly leveled against the left in this condescending bullshit-rear end way where there's no possible way you could come to the conclusion "biden old" or "healthcare pls" or "maybe we shouldn't be rushing ammunition to israel so they can level gaza" unless, fool that you are, thou hast fallen for the traps and tricks of the Adversary and thine will ist enthralled by Trumputin. Fortunately, the clear-eyed scions of truth are here to gently explain that Politics Involves Compromise to the unenlightened children, their conclusions pure and untainted because they believe the Democrats are bad at propaganda due to years of propaganda saying the Dems are bad at propaganda.
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Mar 9, 2024 17:21
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hooman posted:I am objecting to using the counter argument against concerns about his age of "you only believe this because of propaganda", because I don't think that is in any way productive or useful. I don't believe anyone has made that argument. I certainly haven't. Propaganda frequently works by emphasizing or reframing true facts: e.g., we're all talking about Biden’s age and not, say, the time Trump wanted to nuke a hurricane (just to pick one random disqualifying action out of the morass). Biden's old, sure. He's been old for a long time now and he's getting older! The reason everyone is *talking* about his age is that the right wing has been pushing that narrative quite deliberately. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 17:22
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:By definition, if you're not in America (and more specifically, inside the White House), you cannot be watching Biden "directly." You are watching him through the filtered perspectives of whatever sources are your medium. There is no propaganda about Biden in Australia, only fair and balanced journalism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTh6XygLPDQ
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Mar 9, 2024 17:36
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Byzantine posted:I'd be more sympathetic to the 'not immune to propaganda' statements if they weren't constantly leveled against the left in this condescending bullshit-rear end way where there's no possible way you could come to the conclusion "biden old" or "healthcare pls" or "maybe we shouldn't be rushing ammunition to israel so they can level gaza" unless, fool that you are, thou hast fallen for the traps and tricks of the Adversary and thine will ist enthralled by Trumputin. For the record, I think Biden is obviously too old, but I'd rather Trump lose so I'm rooting against the "Biden old" propaganda. For me it's really not an issue worth taking a principled stand on, in this context where his opponent is basically just as old and uncoordinated. The reasonable truth that Biden is really old and that's bad doesn't actually make a difference.
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Mar 9, 2024 17:39
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Byzantine posted:I'd be more sympathetic to the 'not immune to propaganda' statements if they weren't constantly leveled against the left in this condescending bullshit-rear end way where there's no possible way you could come to the conclusion "biden old" or "healthcare pls" or "maybe we shouldn't be rushing ammunition to israel so they can level gaza" unless, fool that you are, thou hast fallen for the traps and tricks of the Adversary and thine will ist enthralled by Trumputin. It wouldn't happen nearly so much if it wasn't people insisting they're the leftmost voices in the room constantly being absolutely snookered by the most transaprently spurious claims in the name of owning the libs. There's no set of glib catchphrases with Sarcastic Capitals that will mock that away.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:05
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Eiba posted:. For me it's really not an issue worth taking a principled stand on, in this context where his opponent is basically just as old and uncoordinated. The reasonable truth that Biden is really old and that's bad doesn't actually make a difference. Exactly. That's how you can see the impact of the propaganda. "Biden old" is objectively irrelevant, because Trump is just as old, far more obviously mush brained, and also malicious and dishonest and evil and every other negative trait including that he is crass and lacking in style and he uses scotch tape to hold his neckties for Christ's sake. But we're all talking about Biden’s age anyway because we have all, whether directly or indirectly, been impacted by right wing propaganda. We talk about Biden's age for the same reason fish think about what the water smells like.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:08
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Byzantine posted:I'd be more sympathetic to the 'not immune to propaganda' statements if they weren't constantly leveled against the left There are like two people who post in this thread and don't consider themselves part of the left. Any recurring topic here is "constantly leveled against the left".
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Mar 9, 2024 18:21
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