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teen witch posted:I think one of the reasons that’s overlooked is that his brain doesn’t connect “genocide bad” and “you are participating in a genocide”, as if it were an indecipherable language, despite people telling him plain as loving day what’s going on. His staff is taking special precautions to insulate him from having to interact with people who disagree with him on the issue. Probably not a sustainable strategy once the general election campaign really starts, though.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:13
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Jethro posted:Given the things that TFG is saying right now about how much he would send troops to help with performing genocide, I think you are still not getting how bad every president would be in this situation. I fully understand that literally every president would be ghoulish but I think Biden is being above and beyond ghoulish. We are not disagreeing that every president would be handling this poorly. E: B B posted:His staff is taking special precautions to insulate him from having to interact with people who disagree with him on the issue. Probably not a sustainable strategy once the general election campaign really starts, though. teen witch fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 01:18
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hadji murad posted:He's facilitating the murder of tens of thousands of women and children which other recent presidents haven't done to the Palestinians. The numbers of dead make his unique ghoulishness readily apparent. Define facilitating and how other presidents would of done it differently? Would Obama of marched US troops into Gaza. Would Trump not be selling arms to Israel, knowing these 100 "secret" transactions done by Biden to Israel Trump had done 4,221 of them to Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Every single US president has sold a large amount of arms to Israel knowing they will be used on the people of Gaza.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:22
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B B posted:His staff is taking special precautions to insulate him from having to interact with people who disagree with him on the issue. Probably not a sustainable strategy once the general election campaign really starts, though. Tbf this reads more as "Biden can't be trusted to not scream some invective at a protestor if one annoys him" than "Biden is having the suffering in the world hidden from him by malicious figures"
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Mar 10, 2024 01:25
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socialsecurity posted:Define facilitating and how other presidents would of done it differently? Would Obama of marched US troops into Gaza. Would Trump not be selling arms to Israel, knowing these 100 "secret" transactions done by Biden to Israel Trump had done 4,221 of them to Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Every single US president has sold a large amount of arms to Israel knowing they will be used on the people of Gaza.  Over five times as many Palestinians have died in the past five months of Biden's presidency as compared to the entire period from 2008 to 2020, and this is a direct result of Biden's policies. It doesn't matter what Obama or Trump would have done, because they're not president right now. Joe "Genocide Joe" Biden is president right now. The blood is on his hands. He's the one circumventing congress to provide weapons and ammunition to help Israel exacerbate the ongoing genocide. He's the one directing the current administration to provide diplomatic cover for the genocide. He's the one directing the U.S. delegation to the U.N. to veto three separate attempts by the U.N. to call for a ceasefire. Hypothesizing about what other presidents would have done is nothing but deflection via counterfactual whataboutism. B B fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 01:30
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socialsecurity posted:Pretty sure this is giving a pass to all previous presidents. What unique things has Biden done here that other presidents didn't or wouldn't? Do you think we starting giving military aid to Israel on day 1 of Biden's presidency? Look, pretty much all Presidents previously have been pretty lovely. What's clearly unique about Biden is: 1) He has pulled out all the stops *on a genocide*. He hasn't used *any* of the tools at his disposal to halt Israel beyond mild, diplomatic "maybe don't murder children" stuff. And for any of you about to say "oh but Israel wouldn't have listened". Rubbish. Talk to me when he's done it. 2) He hasn't done anything to try to push forward some kind of Palestinian state. At least Trump had his batshit plan. There was *something*. 3) He has actively participated *in genocide*. The US has had forces on the ground and has supplied intel. 4) He's absolutely destroying the US's own diplomatic power. He's subjecting the US to god-knows what lawsuits. He's used veto to the point where Malaysia's actively trying to reduce Perm Sec Council veto powers. Nobody believes a drat thing the US says anymore, especially with regard to international law. 5) The US is squandering other alliances and stabilities - there will be repercussions in the Arab world as a part of this. Jordan and Egypt are certainly going to be less stable as a result. 6) He's engineered future atrocities on US soil. If you think Bin Laden was motivated by perceived humiliation and colonial moves, imagine what the next rank will perceive from US participation in this. Eisenhower told Israel to get the gently caress out of Sinai. Carter really put the nipple clamps on Begin. Regan and George HW Bush both put pressure (eg via UN votes or aid threats). Clinton pressured Israel even though he was soft as gently caress. Barak Obama didn't care so long as it didn't destabilise his other stuff. Trump was batshit and maybe would have been just as bad as Biden given opportunity. But he didn't have it. There are other problems. The US political system has structured itself into facilitating exactly this kind of poo poo president. It's almost impossible to ignore that Israel has huge leverage on US Politics with specific regard to Israel and its ancillary issues, mostly via the lobby system, wealthy doners and either Christian Zionist or other Zionist ownership and influence in media. The vast sums being spent to either facilitate entry or ensure continued office for candidates is appalling. This isn't fixable without the rotting system being willing to take on the wider issue of lobbies and media concentration. No signs of that coming. So, structurally, the US is pretty hosed.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:40
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^^ as always, what he saidsocialsecurity posted:Define facilitating and how other presidents would of done it differently? Would Obama of marched US troops into Gaza. Would Trump not be selling arms to Israel, knowing these 100 "secret" transactions done by Biden to Israel Trump had done 4,221 of them to Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Every single US president has sold a large amount of arms to Israel knowing they will be used on the people of Gaza. He repeatedly sends weapons and the government vetoed three ceasefires. Constant public support. The list goes on and on. More Palestinian children have died under this operation than the total number of casualties in previous ones. I don't see the point of saying that others would have been different because the subject at hand is the genocide that he is doing and the deaths of much more than 30,000 people. That is giving him a pass. And it is disgusting. hadji murad fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 01:45
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I don't think it's accurate to say that this is "a direct result of Biden's policies", it's the direct result of an unprecedented attack by Hamas leading to an unprecedented response by Israel. The determination of the Israeli leadership and public to obliterate Gaza is at a far, far higher level than it has ever been before and the levers the US has previously used to prevent Israel from doing things it was far less set on are not going to work.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:46
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Irony Be My Shield posted:it's the direct result of an unprecedented attack by Hamas leading to an unprecedented response by Israel.
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Mar 10, 2024 01:50
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386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:Crazy that the causal chain of responses just terminates at October 7. Why would they have done something like that? That works for me, though. Before October 7, I believed Israel had a right to exist.
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Mar 10, 2024 02:32
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I don't think it's accurate to say that this is "a direct result of Biden's policies", it's the direct result of an unprecedented attack by Hamas leading to an unprecedented response by Israel. The determination of the Israeli leadership and public to obliterate Gaza is at a far, far higher level than it has ever been before and the levers the US has previously used to prevent Israel from doing things it was far less set on are not going to work. I've been following this thread for a pretty long time and I gotta de lurk and say that's a pretty hosed up low-key Zionist way to frame Biden giving America's pet violently expansionistic ethno-supremacist state, founded by a pack of Nazi collaborators and religious fanatics, the green light to ramp up their extermination of the hated untermench for having the termerity to break out of their concentration camp and fight back.
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Mar 10, 2024 02:53
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Jai Guru Dave posted:That works for me, though. Before October 7, I believed Israel had a right to exist. edit: Sorry, I misread. 386-SX 25Mhz VGA fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 03:16
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socialsecurity posted:Define facilitating and how other presidents would of done it differently? Would Obama of marched US troops into Gaza. Would Trump not be selling arms to Israel, knowing these 100 "secret" transactions done by Biden to Israel Trump had done 4,221 of them to Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Every single US president has sold a large amount of arms to Israel knowing they will be used on the people of Gaza. So my reading of your post is that you immediately concede that Joe Biden IS facilitating a genocide, but that he is not responsible because other presidents might have also facilitated a genocide in the same circumstances? Is your argument that US Presidents are not accountable for bad US policy, so long as another president also *might* have implemented the same/worse policy? National Parks fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 03:31
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National Parks posted:So my reading of your post is that you immediately concede that Joe Biden IS facilitating a genocide, but that he is not responsible because other presidents might have also facilitated a genocide in the same circumstances? No not at all, this discussion started with someone saying Biden was uniquely bad about Israel, my argument is that every US president has been just as bad about Israel letting us get to this point. At no point have I said anything about accountability or that Biden is handling this well or tried to reduce his accountability.
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Mar 10, 2024 03:37
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socialsecurity posted:No not at all, this discussion started with someone saying Biden was uniquely bad about Israel, my argument is that every US president has been just as bad about Israel letting us get to this point. At no point have I said anything about accountability or that Biden is handling this well or tried to reduce his accountability. thats not true lol even reagan called up the israelis and told them to stop doing a holocaust in Lebanon -- and he meant it and they stoppd joe biden has uniquely refused to use any leverage to stop or even impede the israelis
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Mar 10, 2024 03:42
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socialsecurity posted:No not at all, this discussion started with someone saying Biden was uniquely bad about Israel, my argument is that every US president has been just as bad about Israel letting us get to this point. At no point have I said anything about accountability or that Biden is handling this well or tried to reduce his accountability. You’ve tried to reduce his accountability by saying that others would have done the same thing Not only are you ignoring the people who pointed out that the situation is much worse you are ignoring what you yourself have said. Now you’re just wasting peoples time, but perhaps that’s the point.
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Mar 10, 2024 03:46
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hadji murad posted:You’ve tried to reduce his accountability by saying that others would have done the same thing Someone else committing a crime doesn't reduce accountability for the crime someone commits that not how accountability works. What US president has had a policy of NOT selling weapons to Israel? Like lay this out for me, would Bush be defying the MIC here? Trump? Clinton?
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Mar 10, 2024 03:50
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socialsecurity posted:Someone else committing a crime doesn't reduce accountability for the crime someone commits that not how accountability works. What US president has had a policy of NOT selling weapons to Israel? Like lay this out for me, would Bush be defying the MIC here? Trump? Clinton? Imagine how much money the MIC could make if they sold arms to both the Israelis and the Palestinians. Unironically, I think that would be the only way out of this mess. I'm reminded that part of the peace process in the Camp David Accords was supplying both foreign and military aid to both signatories, Egypt and Israel, and the promise to kick the rear end of the one nation that decided to start a fight between them.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:06
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I doubt the Palestinians have the needed money to sway the military industrial complex in their favor. Even the attack back in October was something they had to MacGyver their way both into and out of with secondhand home hardware.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:24
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socialsecurity posted:Someone else committing a crime doesn't reduce accountability for the crime someone commits that not how accountability works. What US president has had a policy of NOT selling weapons to Israel? Like lay this out for me, would Bush be defying the MIC here? Trump? Clinton? Not a single one was doing it when the body count has been anywhere near this high. At least three people have pointed this out to you and yet you continue.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:25
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OctaMurk posted:thats not true lol I'm confused on your point. Reagan said a couple of bad things about Israel, as Biden currently has. But when did Reagan stop Israel's genocide? AFAIK, no president has actually pushed back enough to stop the ongoing genocide...
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Mar 10, 2024 04:34
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Kalit posted:I'm confused on your point. Reagan said a couple of bad things about Israel, as Biden currently has. But when did Reagan stop Israel's genocide? AFAIK, no president has actually pushed back enough to stop the ongoing genocide... On 10 August, when American envoy Philip Habib submitted a draft agreement to Israel, Sharon, probably impatient with what he regarded as American meddling, ordered a saturation bombing of Beirut, during which at least 300 people were killed. That bombing was followed by a protest to the Israeli government by President Ronald Reagan. Within 20 minutes of a phone call between Reagan and Begin, in which the former said the bombings were going too far and needed to stop, Begin ordered the bombings stopped.On 12 August, the Israeli cabinet stripped Ariel Sharon of most of his powers; he was not allowed to order the use of air force, armored force and artillery without agreement of the cabinet or prime minister. If the President actually wants to make the Israelis stop doing something, he can.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:48
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OctaMurk posted:
I feel like that times are different now. There is no leverage other than giving them free poo poo and money. We shouldn’t have gave them anything and tell them to cut it out with Lebanon.
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Mar 10, 2024 06:59
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OctaMurk posted:On 10 August, when American envoy Philip Habib submitted a draft agreement to Israel, Sharon, probably impatient with what he regarded as American meddling, ordered a saturation bombing of Beirut, during which at least 300 people were killed. That bombing was followed by a protest to the Israeli government by President Ronald Reagan. Not only that, Reagan used the word "Holocaust" to Begin. Biden also spoke to Begin during the 1982 war. His message was somewhat different. https://twitter.com/ShibleyTelhami/status/1725297204586258751?t=x39KrDy95fXQaCMp-oH5Zw&s=19 This goes way back.
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Mar 10, 2024 08:00
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socialsecurity posted:Someone else committing a crime doesn't reduce accountability for the crime someone commits that not how accountability works. What US president has had a policy of NOT selling weapons to Israel? Like lay this out for me, would Bush be defying the MIC here? Trump? Clinton? Selling weapons during a genocide seems a tad worse than selling weapons as a matter of policy. All these hypotheticals about what other presidents would have done in the current situation are pointless to the discussion. We have Biden as the current president who's ensuring Israel stays armed and a ceasefire doesn't pass so that they can genocide Palestine.
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Mar 10, 2024 12:49
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Genocide Joe Biden is uniquely bad on Israel. Claiming he is not is just liberal cope to deal with the fact that your two parties both have genocidal hogs as frontmen. Were previous presidents also bad? Yes. Joe Biden is much worse. We know this based on the genocide he's currently presiding over, and also we know that previous presidents, as late as Obama, have tried to yank Israel's leash, even over things much less severe than the current genocide. Biden directly undermined the Obama administration's efforts to control Netanyahu. Biden has not, and will not put limits on Israel. Here's the man himself saying it https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/10/biden-makes-contradictory-remarks-on-red-lines-for-israel-in-gaza quote:In a contradictory and confusing interview with MSNBC aired on Saturday, Biden said that an Israeli invasion of the city of Rafah would be his “red line” for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu but he would also never “leave Israel”. Edit: Also while I do think Biden is mentally impaired in some of the ways elderly people can sometimes be, I think it is not correct to assume that he just doesn't understand what's going on. His actions are consistent with the beliefs he has been expressing for the last 40 years, as well as his previous actions to assist Israel under previous administrations. There is no reason to assume that Biden would do anything differently even if he were perfectly clear of mind, and so guessing that he just doesn't know what's happening is making excuses on his behalf that he really doesn't deserve. Here are his thoughts from when he was a sprightly 40 years old: quote:Begin told reporters at the time that Biden, whom he called a “talented speaker,” had endorsed Operation Peace for the Galilee — the Lebanon War — which had begun days earlier, the report says. Esran fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 13:24
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Esran posted:Genocide Joe Biden is uniquely bad on Israel. Claiming he is not is just liberal cope to deal with the fact that your two parties both have genocidal hogs as frontmen. So you're just ignoring Trump huh? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 10, 2024 13:34
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Skex posted:So you're just ignoring Trump huh? I did not ignore Trump, I addressed him here: quote:Claiming he is not is just liberal cope to deal with the fact that your two parties both have genocidal hogs as frontmen. This kind of response is exhausting. Good job not addressing any of the points in the post, and just reaching for "orange man bad", as if that's any kind of defense of Biden. Fine, if you really want to make this argument, I'll accept your implication that Joe Biden and Donald Trump are the two worst presidents on Israel. You are free to now argue that Joe Biden is 0.0001% less genocidal than Trump might have been in the fantasy world where he oversees this genocide. I'm sure such an argument will be very convincing and worthwhile.
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Mar 10, 2024 13:42
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Skex posted:So you're just ignoring Trump huh? You are the nazis.
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Mar 10, 2024 13:53
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ded redd posted:You are the nazis. Have you actually read up on Hamas's political ideology? I'm not saying that justifies Israeli actions, but you really should not ignore the fact that this is a conflict that is the result of right-wing religious fanatics on both sides with a bunch of innocent civilians stuck in the middle.
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Mar 10, 2024 14:19
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Skex posted:Have you actually read up on Hamas's political ideology? You are worse than the nazis, and you deserve to go the way of Mussolini. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 10, 2024 14:22
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Skex posted:So you're just ignoring Trump huh? I don't know how I'm supposed to assume good faith about people kramering in here to defend Biden enabling a genocide by saying "Trump bad". Its a thought terminating discussion killer. But I'll try. Biden is Currently, at this moment enabling a genocide and has been doing so for six months. I will worry about what Trump is going to do to Palestine on January 20th of next year. National Parks fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 14:23
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Skex posted:Have you actually read up on Hamas's political ideology? Oh sure, you're not outright saying this justifies Israel's actions, you're just heavily implying that Hamas' ideology is relevant when discussing whether Israel's actions are justified, leaving it to the reader to make your argument for you. Finish your thought. Why should we "not ignore the fact that this is a conflict that is the result of right-wing religious fanatics on both sides"? I'll add that this is completely irrelevant to a discussion about Joe Biden, and that both of your deflections can accurately be rephrased as "what about Trump" and "what about Hamas".
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Mar 10, 2024 14:44
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It's not accurate that "conflict that is the result of right-wing religious fanatics on both sides." Israel wasn't founded by religious fanatics, the Nakba wasn't conducted by religious fanatics. The man actually running the war is famously secular and initiated his response to Oct 7 by recording and broadcasting a message on a Saturday and a holiday, an obvious violation of Jewish orthopraxy. All his predecessors were secular too. His greatest competitor, who would enthusiastically continue the war if elected, is also a secular Jew. The army conducting the war is disproportionately secular or "traditional", because being an actual religious fanatic - a Haredi - means you are less likely to join the IDF. Hamas is obviously a religious party but again their policy of "kill Israelis until they stop doing this to us" is shared by secular parties throughout Gaza. The PLO are not religious fanatics. And within Gaza I don't know of any difficulties faced by Christians corresponding to their being governed by a Muslim party - and I think I would definitely have heard about it if Hamas had shut down a church, conducted forced conversions, disrupted rituals etc. if these things did happen I'm sure someone will correct me. The attitude to ascribe religious extremism to highly secularized political actors - earlier in this thread we had someone say Netanyahu is a religious extremist - strikes me as an actual application of the literal interpretation of the term "antisemitism": not Jew-hatred or Jew-phobia but an attitude toward the Middle East where every war and atrocity is explained as "they're religious wackjobs who do crazy stuff because they think God said so." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 14:59
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Skex posted:Have you actually read up on Hamas's political ideology?
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Mar 10, 2024 15:01
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Skex posted:Have you actually read up on Hamas's political ideology? No it's not. This " conflict" is the result of decades and decades of Israeli occupation and oppression of Palestinians
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Mar 10, 2024 15:22
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Skex posted:Have you actually read up on Hamas's political ideology? Why is it that fascists are so cowardly that they can't outright make statements about their position and instead have to imply things by question statements and poo poo like "I'm not saying ____ but I do actually want to say ______ but if I do then I have to defend saying _______. Gonna leave some room for ambiguity so that if I get called out I can pretend someone is putting words in my mouth." To be clear, I am calling you a fascist coward. I don't have to hide behind half statements. You are actually saying Israel is justified. The innocent civilians you are referring to aren't "stuck in the middle." They're actively being murdered and starved by Israel, who are openly stating that they're committing genocide. So, I'll return your lovely question about Hamas with "have you actually read up on Israel's political ideology?" Edit: lol some coward reported this post within seconds The Sean fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 15:38
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Skex posted:Have you actually read up on Hamas's political ideology?
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Mar 10, 2024 15:45
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Skex, Israel intentionally supported Hamas as the dominant power in Gaza intentionally to create this situation. They chose and elevated them because they knew that during the next war people would say things like “well I don’t like Israel but Hamas are insane islamists!”. This isn’t a conspiracy theory it is a matter of fact. Similarly when people say “well Israel is only doing this because of October 7th” it willfully ignore that Israel set up matters such that attacks out of Gaza are inevitable because they prefer outright war to international pressure for real negotiations.
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Mar 10, 2024 16:11
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Is anyone else getting tired of being forced to assume good faith from this cavalcade of hasbara shitheads kramering into the thread to retread the same old discussed to death and thoroughly discredited genocidal talking points and then vanish in a puff of smoke when anyone tries to get them to defend their mindless lust for Palestinian death only for the next one in the queue to rinse and repeat and so on? Because holy poo poo is it exhausting to read. At what point are mods going to start dropping sixers for this poo poo?
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Mar 10, 2024 16:24
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