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Scags McDouglas posted:Yeah if I recall correctly, Dennis is stopping at film 3, so no more cliffhangers- which is bad timing in the plot because Messiah ends in a pretty open way. I mean the antagonists are killed sure but it's more like sad ol Irulan, the start of Alia's heel turn, Busted Paul out wandering the sand and 2 kids left behind.
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Mar 10, 2024 03:24
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PeterWeller posted:
This is an excellent way of understanding it, actually, given what we see in Part 1. If they even feel the need to do so, they could probably reference that this is how it went down in just a line or two. One inconsistency between Part 1 and Part 2 I haven't been able to square is Mohiam demanding that the Harkonnens spare Paul and Jessica, and then seemingly trying to get Paul killed in Part 2. I guess she wanted him alive but not doing anything to oppose their other plans? I can't remember if those character dynamics are even found in the book.
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Mar 10, 2024 03:33
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Casimir Radon posted:Alia not even being born yet will make things weird. Another 20 minutes of runtime to establish that being pre-born messed her up would have been worth establishing so they don’t have to do as much with that in the next film. Yeah it would be interesting as a thought exercise to cobble the major plot points and find the parts that would be the least impactful to excise in a sprint to the end of Children, which kicks more rear end. Alia sidelined, sure. No more Baron possession either, I ain't need to hear his husky voice in her head all the time. And I've always hated Paul the Preacher. He's out there giving speeches and the fremen are divided, is that the old emperor or someone else?!. It just feels like an over purchase of my suspension of disbelief to think the most famous human being in the universe, known across every planet for a pogrom, is certainly the most famous man on the planet he's on.... is just out giving speeches incognito. I'm trying not to invoke "literally Hitler" but it would be Hitler, literally laying low, shaving his mustache and going back to giving speeches in a disguise as though that would fool one man, woman or child on this planet. So kill that, idk speed up Children a little and get me Boosted Leto, Dennis you coward.
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Mar 10, 2024 03:37
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Cognac McCarthy posted:One inconsistency between Part 1 and Part 2 I haven't been able to square is Mohiam demanding that the Harkonnens spare Paul and Jessica, and then seemingly trying to get Paul killed in Part 2. I guess she wanted him alive but not doing anything to oppose their other plans? I can't remember if those character dynamics are even found in the book. It's feasible she didn't want everyone in the BG to know she'd order one of their own murdered as a power-grab, so she wanted plausible deniability. Also the books made it clear she set the pain-box higher than the default factory setting for Paul because his existence derailed her plans but just murdering him then and there would be uncouth DarklyDreaming fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 03:55
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Scags McDouglas posted:Yeah he cooked her. I was almost relieved when he picked up the flamethrow because "Only pleasure remains" gave me a wrong prediction about what was coming next. That girl was a low-key great sleeper addition to the movie and she went out like a G. I thought maybe it was one of those body dehydrator things and he was going to suck all the water out of her........ 
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Mar 10, 2024 04:14
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Saw it on Imax today. Pretty satisfying overall but I didn't like the way the knife fights were shot. I've seen 80's grindhouse movies with better knife fights than this. Frequent cutting to closeups of people's faces is how a lesser director would cover for the actors' inability to do decent fight choreography. I don't need to be reminded which two characters are fighting. There's a reason NFL games aren't filmed through inward-facing helmet cams.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:26
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NFL games aren’t really about the human drama of two characters and Dune isn’t really about how cool the fight choreography is. John Wick fights are awesome, but wouldn’t really be appropriate here. I thought the knife fights were pretty great in both films. You get a sense of the brutality and it’s clear that the performers practiced it thoroughly and make it feel authentic. The camerwork supports that rugged authenticity and doesn’t forget the point of the scene. A lesser director might have opted for to focus on the cool moves.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:40
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Boris Galerkin posted:Paul's voice command is weird. I don't know how much power he wields or can project. Could he have commanded the entire room to kneel? I've always been under the impression the Voice doesn't work on groups simultaneously but I can't actually remember if that's established
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Mar 10, 2024 05:06
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Boris Galerkin posted:Paul's voice command is weird. I don't know how much power he wields or can project. Could he have commanded the entire room to kneel? I saw it as more of a statement that he didn't need to use the voice to get the emperor to bend to him.
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Mar 10, 2024 05:55
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Steve Yun posted:I don’t remember most of the book, so maybe I’m missing something but I think both Fenrings exist to show that there’s a breeding program and that the Bennies have backup plans for Paul, and so it was not essential to have both There's the bit in the end where all Paul's grand plans come down to Count Fenring making a conscious decision not to kill Paul, which he could totally do at any time. It's another part of taking apart the monomyth. Forget prescience and super-human abilities, at the end of the day Paul wins because a lot of people did a lot of things to support him. Fenring sees in Paul himself, another person at the whims of this vast breeding program....and when called on to kill him just goes "No". It's a neat little moment. Is it required? No, you get to the same general place in the end. Taking out a bunch of little moments does noticeably leave a weaker story though.
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Mar 10, 2024 06:09
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Ardent Communist posted:nah, it's about being the one driving the bus. and getting a driver's license is a rite of passage in plenty places. It's a teen coming of age story, he moves to a new town, meets a girl, does drugs and learns to drive. GoodluckJonathan posted:May *thy* knife chip and shatter I find that funny because it's an entirely appropriate response to a taunt, and done in a way that's mocking but not without respect. Feyd is absolutely stoked to fight someone who presents a real threat with real stakes. Even when he loses, he clearly considers it one of the most badass ways to die.
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Mar 10, 2024 06:29
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Like in this film, what was the actual point of Paul taking the water of life? They cut out his first son’s murder, so it’s like “ok I didn’t see them bombarding the village oh no” but it’s like… ok? Then he like says a few yo momma jokes to other tribe leaders using his new found gene memories but like, nothing else is really made of it? Besides it just seems to give him ~CONFIDENCE~ It just seems pretty silly in this adaptation, so much was edited down it’s like, why even bother with that.
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Mar 10, 2024 06:43
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Q for the book readers, or people more familiar with the lore: realize this story is effectively a big ol' warning about Messiah figures. I'm assuming this is the case, but this story is that of a big cult wielding enough influence to make a generic prophecy that eventually "some guy" accomplishes, yeah? Like was there some scientist eons ago that had figured out if someone drinks worm poison they'll be able to see the future? Or does Paul do time travel in the next book to invent these credentials he eventually fufills? It's a slight disconnect making Paul an unwilling chosen one, but also like a super man that is clearly more special than the other boys.
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Mar 10, 2024 06:50
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CatstropheWaitress posted:Q for the book readers, or people more familiar with the lore: realize this story is effectively a big ol' warning about Messiah figures. I'm assuming this is the case, but this story is that of a big cult wielding enough influence to make a generic prophecy that eventually "some guy" accomplishes, yeah? Like was there some scientist eons ago that had figured out if someone drinks worm poison they'll be able to see the future? Or does Paul do time travel in the next book to invent these credentials he eventually fufills? It's been a bit, but I think this is how it goes: It's common knowledge that frequent exposure to spice allows people (brief, limited) precognizance. The Bene Gesserit are also aware, but have kept it a deeply held secret, that drinking worm poison and surviving can let people look into the past through their ancestor's lives. The Bene Gesserit's ability to do this is limited, however, and their whole end goal for the past however many centuries/millennia has been to produce a person who can do so without hindrance. The (correct) assumption was that this would also greatly expand their ability to see into the future as well, and that this would represent an unassailable asset.
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Mar 10, 2024 07:08
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Spice's ability to broaden your consciousness was discovered at least 10,000 years ago, it's the basis of space travel in the Imperium. You take enough and you start getting visions, at least of other places in the current time if not in the future. But for most people it requires a staggering amount, to the point it can mutate you and it will have long since left you addicted. As the Guild Navigators were discovering this, the early Bene Gesserit were also developing their weird bullshit and discovering the nature of the worm poison because it's related to the spice. However for whatever reason, no matter how well trained, a man could not survive the worm poison. But the BGs who did do that could look down their genetic memory, but only along the female line. So from these starting points, the Bene Gesserit conceived of a man who might be able to survive the poison and see into the male line of genetic memory as well as the female, as well as gain the Navigators' prescience for the future. To unlock the full potential of the human body and mind, and of the spice. They planned this for millennia, engineered it through careful selective breeding, and also seeded their prophecies around countless cultures of the known universe to prepare the way so their eventual pet messiah's path to dominance would be smoothed by religious tradition. It turned out getting what they wanted was kind of a big problem for them because hahaha what makes you think you can control the superman?
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Mar 10, 2024 07:18
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Scags McDouglas posted:Yeah he cooked her. I was almost relieved when he picked up the flamethrow because "Only pleasure remains" gave me a wrong prediction about what was coming next. That girl was a low-key great sleeper addition to the movie and she went out like a G. Wait who was she? I think I misheard the dialogue immediately preceding it where it explains who she was, and I also didn't recognise her. But I am bad at faces and paying attention to stuff Was it the sarcastic friend of Chani? I got confused because he Harkonnens said something like, they left behind a spy, and then my brain immediately got consumed by "huh?" until the scene was over boofhead fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 09:36
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boofhead posted:Wait who was she? I didn't hear the dialogue immediately preceding it where it explains who she was, and I also didn't recognise her. But I am bad at faces and paying attention to stuff Chani's friend she kept riffing with, I think. Apparently she was "Shishakli", expanded from a one sentence character in the book who hands Paul his maker hooks and then disappears.
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Mar 10, 2024 09:41
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What was the line about her being a spy then? Or did I completely mishear/misunderstand that? (Sorry, I edited my post between you reading and posting) e: vv ah ok, thank you. "spy" tripped me up cos its like... but how? whereas "assassin/hitwoman" makes sense boofhead fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 09:44
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She was left behind in the Sieth to spy on the Harkonnen who were obviously gonna look for survivors. Though I think she got more of a spy/assassin hybrid role. Bugblatter posted:I thought the knife fights were pretty great in both films. You get a sense of the brutality and it’s clear that the performers practiced it thoroughly and make it feel authentic. The camerwork supports that rugged authenticity and doesn’t forget the point of the scene. A lesser director might have opted for to focus on the cool moves. It helps that there is no dramatic music blaring during the knife fights. jeeves posted:Like in this film, what was the actual point of Paul taking the water of life? They cut out his first son’s murder, so it’s like “ok I didn’t see them bombarding the village oh no” but it’s like… ok? Then he like says a few yo momma jokes to other tribe leaders using his new found gene memories but like, nothing else is really made of it? Besides it just seems to give him ~CONFIDENCE~ The movie clearly establishes that the Water of Life gives him more visions than he could ever get on his own and he explains how it lets him manipulate everyone towards defeating the Emperor. Also my memory is fuzzy but didn't Pauls son die after he took the water of life in the book?
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Mar 10, 2024 09:48
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I agree that the Water of Life payoff is weak, but it's basically the thing he does with his hands. Finding a narrow path through the possible futures. The thing that bugs me is that he had a line like "did my father know?". Check your ancestral memory, Usul, he should be in there somewhere.
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Mar 10, 2024 09:56
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I really don't get the complaints about the ending being abrupt or feeling like setup. I don't know what else you could possibly add at the end without going deep into the jihad. Even if we never got part 3 it feels like a completely satisfying ending to me - Paul seld-fulfilled his prophecy to become space Hitler and Chani rejected that and set off on her own path. The only real dangling thread is Alia.
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Mar 10, 2024 10:00
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Just saw the two films in a cinema marathon - great experience. One thing i think is super cool is the way in which the consequences of the Butlerian Jihad are shown by none of the science fiction doohickeys really having screens or anything clever looking like most sci-fi tends to have. Anything advanced needs to have mentats plugged in to it, like the Harkonnen war table.
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Mar 10, 2024 11:15
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disposablewords posted:Spice's ability to broaden your consciousness was discovered at least 10,000 years ago, it's the basis of space travel in the Imperium. You take enough and you start getting visions, at least of other places in the current time if not in the future. But for most people it requires a staggering amount, to the point it can mutate you and it will have long since left you addicted. As the Guild Navigators were discovering this, the early Bene Gesserit were also developing their weird bullshit and discovering the nature of the worm poison because it's related to the spice. However for whatever reason, no matter how well trained, a man could not survive the worm poison. But the BGs who did do that could look down their genetic memory, but only along the female line. Isn't the whole issue that Lady Jessica jumped the gun and decided to have a son one generation too soon, and that's what ruined a millenium-old plan at the finish line and started the whole mess that is Dune?
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Mar 10, 2024 11:45
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DeafNote posted:Also my memory is fuzzy but didn't Pauls son die after he took the water of life in the book? That's right - the thing that pushed Paul to take the Water in the book was Gurney coming very close to killing Jessica, which caught Paul completely off guard because of all the futures he'd seen he'd never seen a single one where Gurney became a threat
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Mar 10, 2024 11:48
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evobatman posted:Isn't the whole issue that Lady Jessica jumped the gun and decided to have a son one generation too soon, and that's what ruined a millenium-old plan at the finish line and started the whole mess that is Dune? Pretty much, but it's unclear whether Feyd and Paulette's KH child would have been easier to control for the BGs. They certainly thought so, but Paul and Leto seemed to think they were underestimating what they were trying to create. The Tleilaxu apparently made a KH once but had to kill him, for what it's worth.
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Mar 10, 2024 13:21
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Shanty posted:I agree that the Water of Life payoff is weak, but it's basically the thing he does with his hands. Finding a narrow path through the possible futures. It took a few rewatches for me to absorb it, but the scene just preceding this when his first real vision was of Alia, I found to be incredibly well-shot. And that's someone that was pretty nonplussed about the original news of ATJ's casting. Gazing out over impossible waves, it's very dreamlike- and it's a cool effect how she casually switches from space to telepathy. She comes across like an incredibly kind and believable shaman.
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Mar 10, 2024 13:43
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evobatman posted:Isn't the whole issue that Lady Jessica jumped the gun and decided to have a son one generation too soon, and that's what ruined a millenium-old plan at the finish line and started the whole mess that is Dune? Yeah, well, BG be trippin'.
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Mar 10, 2024 14:36
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Is a theme that, no matter the circumstances, a KH would be impossible to actually control in practice and both Paul and his son laugh at the BG for thinking they could, even if they have rather charitable views towards the organisation as a whole. (also that gender essentialism is kinda built into the metaphysics of Dune, unfortunately, though in a funny 60s way. It's seriously ahead of its time as a 60s sci-fi story where women are complete characters with intelligence, agency and personalities of their own) Is also a theme that despite Jessica and Paul really not being bad people by most standards- I'd call them reasonable and personally kind, and if you presented them with a problem they'd do their best to help- by fulfilling the roles that society presents for them in order to survive, they end up being and enabling MegaSpaceHitler simply by completing the path of the Hero's Journey.
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Mar 10, 2024 14:58
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Bright Bart posted:Really creeped out at all the press outlets who are calling Feyd-Rautha 'hot' and 'sexy'. I am do not find many men or women or anything sexy, so that might be part of it. And I could be kink shaming. But I don't think it's that. you know that meme where men post "hear me out" with a picture of a conventionally attractive actress with maybe a big nose or older than 40 and women say hear me out about a mind flayer from D&D? yeah Boris Galerkin posted:Second question, does the Fremen hopping onto spaceships for a space battle make any sense? I can see them boarding the ships to invade a planet but I thought the ships were flying up into orbit to shoot torpedos at the other ships. Dune is notoriously bad even by general sci-fi standards at presenting convincing scale of events. Best to not worry about it.
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Mar 10, 2024 14:59
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evobatman posted:Isn't the whole issue that Lady Jessica jumped the gun and decided to have a son one generation too soon, and that's what ruined a millenium-old plan at the finish line and started the whole mess that is Dune? Kinda, but also not really. The issue is that once you open the pandora's box of creating any Kwisatz Haderach, it's all bound to go down the drain eventually. There is simply no way to permanently control somebody who's functionally omniscient, and the Bene Gesserit are deluding themselves into thinking that they can. Sooner or later, concentrating that much power into a single person is going to lead to mass death and suffering. Paul frontloaded the atrocities but, as far as Dune/Herbert are concerned, something at that scale or worse would have eventually happened with any KH candidate.
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Mar 10, 2024 15:01
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Perestroika posted:Kinda, but also not really. The issue is that once you open the pandora's box of creating any Kwisatz Haderach, it's all bound to go down the drain eventually. There is simply no way to permanently control somebody who's functionally omniscient, and the Bene Gesserit are deluding themselves into thinking that they can. Sooner or later, concentrating that much power into a single person is going to lead to mass death and suffering. Paul frontloaded the atrocities but, as far as Dune/Herbert are concerned, something at that scale or worse would have eventually happened with any KH candidate. Yeah, the Bene Gesserit got really, really lucky that the Kwisatz Haderachs they produced respected them despite their hubris and considered them able to learn from it. The og Dune books are also (among other things) specifically a counter-text to Asimov's Foundation series, where a freak one-off human with psychic powers throws off the otherwise infallible science of psychohistory, and basically flip the script with a universe where robots are banned and psychics are the norm, with the Mule equivalent being a main character rather than a one-off antagonist. Rather funny that between them you can see the, ahem, foundation to like almost the entirety of science fiction to follow. (between Dune, Foundation and Lensman, basically)
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Mar 10, 2024 15:09
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Back from the movie, thankfully i managed to find a original language showing so i wasn't exposed to the psychological trauma of Italian sci-fi dubs. I liked it but i cannot say that I loved it, unlike the first one that took every minute of playtime to let the story flow, this one was almost in a Marvel movie style relentless march, with characters that were multifaceted and complex in the first turned into one dimensional cardboard cutouts to avoid slowing down the narrative. I don't know if making a trilogy out of just the first book was appropriate or feasible but as is, i don't feel like we got the full potential, which is pretty much the standard for any dune movie to be brutally honest. Now to wait for a AI powered Jodorowski's Dune.
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Mar 10, 2024 16:27
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I really don’t know why everyone talks about Jodorowsky’s Dune like it wouldn’t have been an unmitigated disaster and killed the franchise forever. Dude’s a loving hack masquerading as auteur. And I agree with the sentiment that Part 2 is basically Denis’s first Marvel movie, loving cut out the soul of the book to hit plot points at breakneck speed.
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Mar 10, 2024 16:38
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Scarabrae posted:I really don’t know why everyone talks about Jodorowsky’s Dune like it wouldn’t have been an unmitigated disaster and killed the franchise forever. Dude’s a loving hack masquerading as auteur. I think this is what makes the documentary so great: I have never been able to sit through more than 10 minutes of a Jodorowsky movie, but watching him talk about his Dune, I believe it would have been amazing. He's as good at selling the movie he wanted to make to the viewer of the documentary as he was at selling it to producers and stars he got on board back in the '70s.
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Mar 10, 2024 16:43
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Scarabrae posted:And I agree with the sentiment that Part 2 is basically Denis’s first Marvel movie, loving cut out the soul of the book to hit plot points at breakneck speed. Ah I see Marvel movie has finally become an entirely meaningless descriptor beyond "thing I don't like". Also lmao that a 5+ hour movie adaptation could be considered breakneck speed. Without splitting the book into three or making it a TV show what more could he have done?
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Mar 10, 2024 16:44
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No I think in this specific context, the poster even indicated what they meant by marvel movie. Not sure why you'd be defensive about an apt description.
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Mar 10, 2024 16:47
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Scarabrae posted:I really don’t know why everyone talks about Jodorowsky’s Dune like it wouldn’t have been an unmitigated disaster and killed the franchise forever. Dude’s a loving hack masquerading as auteur. Our town movie scifi convention had a Jodorowski's dune showing with Jodorowski on premises and you could see him misty eyed at the end, all of his movies might look auteur nonsense but he did those for the love of the art rather than to cut a paycheck. The art side of that production was a powerhouse (be honest, Villeneuve harkonnens costumes and other assets are straight out of Giger ideas for the Jodorowski's reduction) that shook the comics and movie worlds afterwards. It would have been likely weird as gently caress but weird is sometimes better than a flat, by the numbers production.
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Mar 10, 2024 16:48
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Part 1 was nearly perfect all Denis had to do was not be a dumbass and include the dinner scene he apparently already filmed in the loving movie.
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Mar 10, 2024 17:00
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Scarabrae posted:I really don’t know why everyone talks about Jodorowsky’s Dune like it wouldn’t have been an unmitigated disaster and killed the franchise forever. Dude’s a loving hack masquerading as auteur. i’ll field this one: because it would’ve been awesome
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Mar 10, 2024 17:02
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:No I think in this specific context, the poster even indicated what they meant by marvel movie. Not sure why you'd be defensive about an apt description. I just don't see the comparison. It's like in the 90s where every adaptation was likened to Jurassic Park on the same grounds. It's just blockbuster aversion - which is fine if that's your thing but comparing this to something like Endgame just feels bizarre.
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Mar 10, 2024 17:56
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