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Taffer posted:I've been paying extra close attention to this during my current re-read, and I'm not sure this is true. Granted my evidence is a little incomplete but there are too many inconsistencies, so something weird is going on, I'm just not completely sure what. Which comes up to why basically none of Shallan's internal thoughts can be trusted; she's deeply repressed the truth and it breaks free in inconsistent waves to war with her fake memories. Also, you're acting like the way everyone knows Shardblades work are the rules that all dead blades follow, and... they're not. Dead blades need ten heartbeats? Adolin could tell you different. Who says they can't shapeshift? And who says they're dead? Spren are only ever as dead as their oaths. And on top of all of that, the rules just don't apply to Shallan the way they do to anyone else. She's double-bonded. She opens the series as simultaneously Third/Fourth Ideal and no Ideal, how does that work? What about when she's First Ideal again, if she wasn't furiously repressing all her memories, would she have slammed right back into her full power? We don't know, she doesn't know, probably nobody knows. (And also she's a Herald's daughter, that probably fucks stuff up too.) So I guess what I'm saying is, don't expect those inconsistencies and details to add up. They ain't gonna. They're the product of a profoundly fractured mind. Oh, also, I left a detail out. When Shallan draws Taravangian, she draws two Cryptics. Until the RoW reveal, you're supposed to assume that Shallan was just being scouted by multiple spren, but do we have a timeframe on when Testament got picked up and brought to Lasting Integrity? Also, fun fact, Gaz gets a brief PoV segment and his internal narration shows the same paranoid "weird shapes in the dark that I can't quite see" ideation that Shallan and Elhokar both share and seems to be a common sign of being scouted by the Cryptics. So apparently him going Radiant was planned all along too, Sanderson you clockwork bastard, what won't you foreshadow? And what in Damnation did the Cryptics see in him as being worthwhile before he started hanging out with Shallan?
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Mar 9, 2024 01:28
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If “Kaladin was good with a spear because he will be good with a spear” is acceptable reasoning in Stormlight, perhaps “X character is worthy of a spren because they will be worthy of a spren” holds equal weight.
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Mar 9, 2024 01:41
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CapnAndy posted:So I guess what I'm saying is, don't expect those inconsistencies and details to add up. They ain't gonna. They're the product of a profoundly fractured mind. Agreed of course, this is all just wild speculation on my part. Shallan is obviously a special case and we don't have enough information about how lightweavers work in general to come to any strong conclusions. Most of my theorycrafting here is based on the fact that she seems to have summoned two different shardblades in WoR, and by the admittedly flimsy "rules" that we know of, it seems that one of them is dead and one of them is alive. That, plus the timeline of truths she gives and the lightweaving that she does when, from the little clear information we have, we know was after her mothers death and the broken bond with Testament. I think the idea that she never actually broke her bond with Testament, but just sort of... fractured it is an interesting one, and based on the information we have it seems pretty plausible. But... I dunno, given how hosed up all of Shallans past is it seems too straightforward somehow.
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Mar 9, 2024 01:45
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CapnAndy posted:I chose my words carefully. (Full spoilers!) RoW spoiler The inkspren Adolin talks to says Testament left 10 years ago to join the hunt for Radiants, and was found last year on an island far to the east. So Testament might have gotten separated after the fall of Kholinar.
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Mar 9, 2024 01:57
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rafikki posted:Unrelated to previous convo but full cosmere I was reading some of the WOBs on that page linked above Aw man, my claim to Cosmere fame was that I was the person who asked about the shape of the Cosmere for us to get the dwarf galaxy answer. And now he's saying it's being retconned? Cruel.
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Mar 9, 2024 02:12
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CapnAndy posted:I chose my words carefully. (Full spoilers!) [...] So while a radiant Lightweaver or Elsecaller can make the transition physically, to the equivalent location, as we saw with Urithiru the real world and Shadesmar aren't 1:1, just painted in the same broad brush. But more specifically, due to the way we've been shown people 'peaking' between them, we know that unlike transportation that simple observation is much less tied to location and more to connection. So Testament could have physically been in Lasting Integrity while being observed by Shallan. Similar to how when a deadeye makes the transition it doesn't matter where they are physically. Testament was still "10 heartbeats away" right there, following her, even if she was on the other side of the world for safe keeping. Mr. Hasty posted:RoW spoiler The inkspren Adolin talks to says Testament left 10 years ago to join the hunt for Radiants, and was found last year on an island far to the east. So Testament might have gotten separated after the fall of Kholinar. Also there is a good posibility That Testament was found back in Shadesmar after reverting near the plains following the summoning against Tyn. Since she summoned Pattern in the Chasm with Kaladin. M_Gargantua fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 02:51
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Whole lot of text walls here. 
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Mar 9, 2024 03:26
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Mordiceius posted:Whole lot of text walls here. This is the Sanderson thread.
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Mar 9, 2024 03:33
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socialsecurity posted:This is the Sanderson thread. I liked how, in the Edgedancer post script, he said “I meant for this to be about 15k words. It ended up being 40k words.”
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Mar 9, 2024 03:40
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Alright, one more crackpot theory since it's still kicking around in my head, full stormlight spoilers: Spren are manifestations of thought (and the power of a shard), and it's made very clear that their makeup changes significantly when the people perceiving them change. Pattern talks near the end of WoR about how before he bonded with Shallan he was formless, and "less than" simple spren like Creationspren. After the trauma of accidentally killing her mother and then breaking the bond with Testament, she hid the lie so deep (she thinks her mother's soul was trapped in her fathers room, rather than her blade, aka Testament) that she manifested Pattern as a lie to fill in the hole, as some sort of clone to Testament. I called this theory crackpot for a reason, but just from this bit of text I'm gonna pretend I have a lot of evidence for it  quote:"I was not me when the Knights Radiant existed. It is complex to explain. I have always existed. We are not 'born' as men are, and we cannot truly die as men do. Patterns are eternal, as is fire, as is the wind. As are all spren. Yet, I was not in this state. I was not ... aware." edit: welp, just saw a WoB that pattern had interacted with Shallan before her mothers death. A couple other interesting ones too... https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221/#e7874 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222/#e5609 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e967 Her backstory is so goddamn confusing lol Taffer fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 04:01
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Taffer posted:I don't buy this, Dalinar wasn't embodying any ideals before Gavilars death except for bloodlust. I don't think he was getting any special attention from the Stormfather or any other spren until after Gavilars death and after his visit to Cultivation. I think it's just meant to be one of those moments that calls out what a badass soldier he is, not something magical. Why not? Dalinar is clearly upholding what he eventually speaks as his second oath. "I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together." It just happened to be through blood and fire. There's nothing there that says it has to be peaceful. He also goes on to embody the third oath he speaks long before speaking any. "I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man."
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Mar 9, 2024 04:32
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Taffer posted:edit: welp, just saw a WoB that pattern had interacted with Shallan before her mothers death. A couple other interesting ones too...
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Mar 9, 2024 04:52
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Dodging walls of text like a ninja. Guess I gotta power through 3 books to get caught up.
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Mar 9, 2024 04:57
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CapnAndy posted:Either those are deliberate lies or Testament is a retcon. They predate RoW, so I think he is intentionally using the name of Pattern instead of Testament, either because Testament is a retcon like you said, or because he just didn't want to let out any more of the full picture that early on. Still seems to muddy things quite a bit.
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Mar 9, 2024 05:04
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He's not the one using the name Pattern, but he's also not correcting the questioner.
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Mar 9, 2024 05:09
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CapnAndy posted:Either those are deliberate lies or Testament is a retcon. My take is that pattern was the spren in the soulcaster fabriel
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Mar 9, 2024 05:15
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A Sneaker Broker posted:Dodging walls of text like a ninja. Guess I gotta power through 3 books to get caught up. You should see the thread when a new book releases! It feels like pages after pages of redacted CIA documents at times. But it's all great fun, and allows us to share the thread with new readers 
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Mar 9, 2024 05:44
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Torrannor posted:You should see the thread when a new book releases! It feels like pages after pages of redacted CIA documents at times. But it's all great fun, and allows us to share the thread with new readers It is going to be loving bonkers around here when SA5 comes out.
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Mar 9, 2024 05:46
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Mordiceius posted:It is going to be loving bonkers around here when SA5 comes out.
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Mar 9, 2024 06:39
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Mordiceius posted:It is going to be loving bonkers around here when SA5 comes out. I will finish Stormlight by then. So I'll be good to go dropping walls of text that new readers will have to dodge  Anyways, Oathbringer - Chapter 10 Pattern said, "No Mating!" So no one in this thread can have sex for one night. Don't disobey the cryptic.
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Mar 9, 2024 06:58
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Oathbringer - Chapter 19 I love how casual and unbothered Dalinar is in this flashback. He gets pissed off about himself that he lost his favorite knife that he decides to go for a casual stroll during a highstorm from one bunker to another, then when he can't open the door, he uses his shardblade to open said door, promptly scaring his men. Then, when Teleb doesn't turn up the knife, he closes the door, sees a glowing figure (most likely the almighty himself), flips him off, then enters back into the feast hall bunker soaking wet, then sits down even madder. I aspire to have this mentality when I couldn't care less about something during an event.
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Mar 10, 2024 00:44
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It's definitely a highlight scene for me Even better is the foreign dignitary is flabbergasted and Gavilar is like "yeah that's just how my brother is, any doubts about how formidable we are now?"
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Mar 10, 2024 02:12
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Listened to the Oathbringer prologue today. UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
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Mar 10, 2024 03:17
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I should probably start a Stormlight re-read so I can maybe remember half of the bullshit you guys are talking about.
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Mar 10, 2024 03:47
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Mordiceius posted:Listened to the Oathbringer prologue today. UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Everything makes sense now though, right? No new questions I assume?
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Mar 10, 2024 03:48
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Mordiceius posted:Listened to the Oathbringer prologue today. UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Buckle up cowboy. This only gets more crazy.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:15
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DarkHorse posted:It's definitely a highlight scene for me I stopped reading for a bit right after that scene because I was laughing so much at the bizarreness to it only to read the end of the chapter…. Dalinar is a unbothered, freak of nature. He’s also a madman. Using the knife that was gonna kill your brother as a steak knife is batshit insane.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:17
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A Sneaker Broker posted:I stopped reading for a bit right after that scene because I was laughing so much at the bizarreness to it only to read the end of the chapter…. It had also stabbed him, right? "Why waste it? S'a good knife"
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Mar 10, 2024 05:07
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He washed it. He’s not a savage. Flashback Dalinar is such a brute, and amazingly charismatic enough to be likeable anyway.
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Mar 10, 2024 07:17
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Mordiceius posted:Listened to the Oathbringer prologue today. UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM For all the deserved flak WoK's prologue gets, the 5 released prologues in their entirety are a genius concept. You think it can't get more crazy, but each one does. With the Stormlight 5 prologue absolutely taking the cake, there's a reason it alone spawned like 6 major fan theories. So be prepared to go UMMMMMMMMM at least two more times!
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Mar 10, 2024 07:27
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Flashback Dalinar is basically Marvel Comics Conan, he’s just awesome and barbarian that makes everyone else uncomfortable.
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Mar 10, 2024 16:16
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Finished Part 1 of Oathbringer First off, welcome back, Jasnah Kholin. Although the book doesn't explicitly say it, I will assume Wit is now in Urithiru as well since he waited for Jasnah to return to the beach at the end of WoR. I wonder how her dynamic with Shallan will be, considering Shallan saw her die and now has somehow risen again. So that means there are six(?) Knights Radiant now in Urithiru:
I wonder how this plays out. Also, where the hell is Lift? She and Wyndle should have heard something about an ancient city led by the Knights Radiant. Shallan seems so overpowered. She came face first with Re-Shephir and did not back down. She made the spren fear her. She looks like the most potent Radiant so far. Also, what's up with Renarin? All Renarin ever does is freeze up in shock, write down binary code, and act like a little wuss. Man up and show me your powers, boy. You're supposed to be a Truthwatcher. Please show me the truth! I'm intrigued by where Oathbringer is going because I am still determining where we could go. Deeper into the mountains and all the vast and unknown rooms and whatever lies awaiting there? All the voidbringers took over a city. Now what?
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Mar 11, 2024 00:29
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I want to respond to your post, but mostly can't, for obvious reasons. Don't worry, most of your question will have answers in this very book.
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Mar 11, 2024 00:33
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Same. The most I can say is enjoy the ride.
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Mar 11, 2024 01:07
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I would like to point out that the name of the Radiant order is Truthwatcher, not Truthteller. There’s nothing there that says they have to relay any of the things they observe.
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Mar 11, 2024 01:19
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I finished TWoK, and while I still don't love it, I didn't hate it nearly as much this time. I think it helped a lot that I knew what was being built towards and that let me appreciate how much ground-laying work the novel is doing. If it's hard to get through, well, in part that's because it's bedrock that the next 4 (or even 9) books are going to be built on top of. Also, in my memories, there were like six chapters each of Kaladin doing nothing but moping in the chasms while all his friends die and Shallan flirting with Jam Guy; in actuality, their chapters do move the plot forward nearly every time. I still think there's an editing pass missing from this book and while I'll back off on calling it a glorified prologue and/or the first two sections of WoR, it's still a flawed narrative. And I think a big part of the problem is the ending, which is anticlimactic and just... wrong. It doesn't end in the right place at all. (WoR spoilers) What's the big climax of this book? Sadeas' betrayal of Dalinar and Kaladin getting them out anyway? That turns out to be not nearly as big a deal as it seemed like it was going to be... which, perhaps not coincidentally, could also nicely serve for Sadeas' epitaph. Petty Highprince bullshit is well below the scale of this story. Kaladin being freed and going to work for Dalinar is a big moment for Kaladin, but story-wise, it's of no greater import than him being enslaved in the first place. The end of Part 1 of WoR is a better endpoint for TWoK; you'd let Shallan get confirmed as being a Radiant and showing some superpowers of her own, Pattern would appear, and it'd end on the double-punch of Jasnah's apparent murder and Amaram resurfacing in the warcamps to be a neat bookend to Kaladin's arc for the book. That's my new position. Book ends too soon, both it and WoR shoulda got their plots massaged a bit to make it work. This next stuff is full spoilers through the WaT prologue. Shallanchat: I still maintain that "What am I? I'm terrified" is a terrible, unsatisfying truth, but the Cryptics (Pattern specifically? Who knows, there's several of them in the room with her at this point) do respond to it with "That is truth" along with her ability to Soulcast re-manifesting. She hasn't sworn the First Ideal yet at that point, but actually, she never does. Not in the entire book. In retrospect, that was a huge red flag that Sanderson was waving right under our noses; how was Shallan Surgebinding without saying the First Ideal? We all should've been questioning that all along. In the aftermath of Jasnah murking the robbers, Shallan momentarily berates herself as not being blameless in the matter either, because she'd been carrying a concealed weapon and didn't use it. And that's well before "I killed my father", so she's definitely thinking of Testament that time. It's mostly proof that Shallan conflates Testatment and Pattern at every opportunity and basically nothing she thinks about how her powers or spren bond works can be trusted. But I still hate "I'm terrified"! It doesn't work! If that's Second, to make "I killed my father" Third and giving her a living Blade in time to unlock Urithiru, that makes "I killed my mother" Fourth. Which earns her Plate. And, as Jasnah quite conspicuously takes time to point out, Shallan has no Plate. I'm harboring an only semi-coherent theory that as a lapsed Knight she's "really" whatever Ideal she was when she broke her oaths as a child, and she can access any of those perks at any time, but only sporadically or in a limited fashion or something until she gets her bond with Pattern back up to that level. So she would only be Second Ideal and technically without access to a living blade in the caverns and when unlocking Urithiru, but Pattern can be alive enough to change his shape a bit and unlock the gate. I dunno. Absent, like, an interview with Sanderson where you could ask him a bunch of questions in sequence, between her special circumstances and faulty memory, maybe it's pointless to try and quantify Shallan. Gavilarchat: So I just wanna quote you guys something from the last chapter of TWoK. It's from Dalinar's last vision before they go on repeat. And then I'm gonna ask you a question. Okay? quote:The figure was silent for a moment. Then he spoke in a clear, crisp voice. “Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. Speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the Shards they once bore.” He turned to Dalinar, meeting his eyes. “The Knights Radiant must stand again.” If Gavilar was getting the visions from the Stormfather too, how the gently caress does he not know the Words?
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Mar 11, 2024 07:28
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CapnAndy posted:If Gavilar was getting the visions from the Stormfather too, how the gently caress does he not know the Words? Speculation based off Book 5 prologue (I posted this a few pages ago): He’s not looking for the words to make him radiant but to make him a herald, he wants to be immortal and become an eternal ruler
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Mar 11, 2024 08:21
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CapnAndy posted:(WoR spoilers) What's the big climax of this book? Sadeas' betrayal of Dalinar and Kaladin getting them out anyway? That turns out to be not nearly as big a deal as it seemed like it was going to be... Kaladin's actions are hugely important for both his personal development and Radiant growth, and the way Bridge 4 changes immediately after those actions. It's a massive climax of action and plot with consequences that move the entire story forward. Bridge 4 gives Kaladin purpose and helps him overcome his depression (hurf durf just a mopey guy) and start making improvements in his life and sets him on a path he wouldn't otherwise have taken. big mean giraffe fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Mar 11, 2024 |
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Mar 11, 2024 14:30
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CapnAndy posted:This next stuff is full spoilers through the WaT prologue. I maintain my theory about Shallan's Truth's, (Full Stormlight) She's still bonded to Testament, and she still owes testament two truths, and Pattern needs 5, and there is an order of precedence for which of the 'slots' are filled. To copy again - M_Gargantua posted:Stormlight RoW speculation - I had a thought that maybe Shallan will have to say 7 or 8 truths, as Testament is still following her around and bonded to her, as she was able to summon a Testament blade in WoK even before speaking the first truth to Pattern in WoK Ch 45. That first technical truth spoken to Pattern was "I am Terrified", so by that count she's already at four truths on screen as of RoW. So I think maybe she has a truth deficit to pay back in parallel, having both a dead and living spren bonded. The one or two unknown truth's she spoke as a kid to Testament that granted blade. Right now we know that Lightweavers get both Illumination and Transformation before blade. So with some conjecture - "I am Terrified" was the first truth spoken to pattern, granting her soulcasting which she used to create the bloody mess, and "I killed my father" gave her access to Pattern as a blade, which is what she used to kill Tyn and lend to Kaladin. So now she's caught up to where she was originally before Testament died. That makes "I killed my mother" her fourth ideal, but one given to Testament, and "I killed Testament" her fourth idea, spoken to Pattern. I think then she now qualifies for Plate, and she'll have to swear two more to complete the fifth. A problem the original knights or shard bearers didn't have, and a unique case. And CapnAndy's immediate reply about what he thinks is going to happen at the start of KoW is probably also near on the money. M_Gargantua fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Mar 11, 2024 |
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Mar 11, 2024 15:03
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CapnAndy posted:But I still hate "I'm terrified"! It doesn't work! If that's Second, to make "I killed my father" Third and giving her a living Blade in time to unlock Urithiru, that makes "I killed my mother" Fourth. Which earns her Plate. And, as Jasnah quite conspicuously takes time to point out, Shallan has no Plate. Oathbringer spoilers:Radiant (who is later revealed to be the real physical Shallan who is Illuminating a fake Shallan because that girl is messed up) is wearing Plate at the Battle of Thaylen Field. Her and Jasnah both are 4th Ideal and trying to hide it at the end of Oathbringer.
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Mar 11, 2024 21:40
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