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Starting to get into territory where we might wanna put a lid on it, folks. We'll get there eventually.
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Mar 10, 2024 23:05
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I never played World of Warcraft but I just finished reading Cythereal's years-long several hundred page thread on the topic and I think I can resolve these apparent plot holes. Ahem: The writers didn't care. For additional evidence please see: the entirety of Starcraft 2, now playing in a Bisby LP near you.
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Mar 10, 2024 23:07
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Poil posted:Wasn't that added years later, long after she started redoing horrible thing? No, Frostmourne did steal part of her soul, and all the horrible things she did, she did while part of her soul was missing. That didn't help, but at least the game is unambiguous that this is not an excuse. A player might disagree, but that's pretty clearly the official opinion in-universe, and by inference of the Blizzard writers. bladededge posted:I never played World of Warcraft but I just finished reading Cythereal's years-long several hundred page thread on the topic and I think I can resolve these apparent plot holes. Cythereal is a very biased source, and it's absolutely not true that the writers didn't care. If you get all your knowledge of post WC3 from Cythereal's LP, then you don't get the real picture. Cythereal made sure to make look Blizzard as bad as possible. Torrannor fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 23:08
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Yeah it actually kinda seems like the more blizzard cared about the writing the worse it got E Sylvanas wakes up after getting her whole soul restored and is like "What the hell have I done?" then gets a cutscene where she's reviewing all the stuff she did while her soul was missing going "no how could you?" to her evil self. It's pretty unambiguous that it wasn't the real her, we actually haven't seen real Sylvanas at any point since she was corrupted by Arthas. Whole/new Sylvanas wasn't the doing those things, it's just that she can't be let off the hook coz everyone had gone feral irl after she burnt the special elf's tree. So they tried to have their cake and eat it too which is pretty blizz and just had her go "yeah I accept this penance" Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 23:17
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Communist Thoughts posted:Yeah it actually kinda seems like the more blizzard cared about the writing the worse it got Uther tells her straight to her face that that Banshee was her, how much more unambiguous can you be? Especially since Uther went through the same thing with his soul missing a part due to Frostmourne. And he came to the same conclusion in the Kyrian questlines that established that Uther is indeed responsible for the poo poo he did while missing a part of his soul.
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Mar 11, 2024 00:36
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Torrannor posted:
Maybe, but all Cyth did was to make Blizzard writing look 9/10 bad instead of it's usual 8/10 bad . (She did acknowledge where Blizzard had good writing, for example, the food post, so it's not even 10/10 bad in her writings).
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Mar 11, 2024 02:13
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I mean, I think there's a pretty general consensus that Metsen cared a ton about what he was writing. That was where a ton of the charm came in in the earlier games. Him doing silly voices to give a silly 10 second explanation for what the map objectives are and why your action figures are slamming together was great. All the little doodles and things of his that wound up in the manuals was great. None of that would have been fun if he didn't care immensely. It's just that as times went on and games could handle more and more plot it became apparent very quickly that Metsen is absolutely terrible at serious writing, barring his one off success with the wc3 human campaign. And then WoW came out, and the project was so big, and Blizzard had no idea how to handle it, so the writing is all over the place. And then Blizzard never really cared to fix that, so it's still that way decades later even with a much stronger story focus in the game.
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Mar 11, 2024 02:27
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Communist Thoughts posted:Yeah it actually kinda seems like the more blizzard cared about the writing the worse it got This is my bottom line. Outside the flash in the pan of WC3's human campaign, the harder Blizzard tries to write serious stories the worse the result inevitably is. Blizzard, in my eyes, excels at goofy, light-hearted fun that doesn't take itself seriously, but Blizzard also appears to be chronically in denial of that fact.
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Mar 11, 2024 03:08
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Cythereal posted:the harder Blizzard tries to write serious stories the worse the result inevitably is. For a moment (early Dragonflight) it looked like they finally realized that WoW works best when it's not taking itself so seriously but of course they had to gently caress it up again. Now they are fully back into serious, morally grey tones with edgy
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Mar 11, 2024 03:16
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Communist Thoughts posted:Yeah it actually kinda seems like the more blizzard cared about the writing the worse it got So... That literally happened to Tony Stark. Back in the Civil War arc, Tony did some nasty poo poo to push for super hero registration (interdimentional Gitmo, cloning Thor, torture... it was a time). After the next Event comic (Secret Invasion) Tony went on the run, with him having to go and literally "reformat" his brain and restore it from a "back up" because his brain basically was a computer. Then after he gets "restored" to before the events of Civil War, he reads what he did and goes "WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING!?" Also he might have been a skrull at that point but I"m not sure.
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Mar 11, 2024 03:45
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Torrannor posted:Uther tells her straight to her face that that Banshee was her, how much more unambiguous can you be? Especially since Uther went through the same thing with his soul missing a part due to Frostmourne. And he came to the same conclusion in the Kyrian questlines that established that Uther is indeed responsible for the poo poo he did while missing a part of his soul. People can watch this and come to their own conclusions, I think it's pretty cakey havey eaty imo It's also a fun example of blizzards godawful storytelling and how dirty they done Sylvanas, but this is kinda a derail, though I do think it's relevant to the thread since Kerrigan getting ruined was the precursor to... This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQqKxU9cNe8
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Mar 11, 2024 03:50
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Kith posted:
Eh. This part I'll grant -- a military production center is a perfectly valid target in a war. Destroying it to deny logistics capability to your enemy is sound strategy. The fleeing Protoss ship, on the other hand...
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Mar 11, 2024 10:43
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Szarrukin posted:For a moment (early Dragonflight) it looked like they finally realized that WoW works best when it's not taking itself so seriously but of course they had to gently caress it up again. Now they are fully back into serious, morally grey tones with edgy And, you know, the whole 'here's a quest to travel back in time and keep a woman in sexual slavery' quest that made me chuck the whole Dragonflight expansion in the garbage. Starcraft 2 at least started with promising signs of going for a space Western vibe like was in vogue in the 90s/00s, but here in Spleen of the Swarm we have someone at Blizzard clearly deciding that wasn't epic and cool enough.
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Mar 11, 2024 12:59
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kaosdrachen posted:Eh. This part I'll grant -- a military production center is a perfectly valid target in a war. Destroying it to deny logistics capability to your enemy is sound strategy.
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Mar 11, 2024 13:05
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I kinda liked Warfield. Shallow and underdeveloped character but he had a cool look and a cool voice. Wasted potential. Plus when I first played this game I was pretty mad for the same reason he is - he literally just helped us last wednesday and now we're here to kill him and all his dudes for no reason.
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Mar 11, 2024 18:09
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Is the guy who delivers the snack bars to the military base a valid target
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Mar 11, 2024 18:58
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Wait why did Kerrigan want to go to Char again?
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Mar 11, 2024 19:37
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Natural 20 posted:Wait why did Kerrigan want to go to Char again? Basically because it's the Swarm's Primary World and there's bound to be a bunch of Zerg there to take control of to send at Mengsk - taking on Warfield is sort of a combination of "Get. Off. My. Planet." but also, you *know* he's going to defend Arcturus if we don't take him out first, no matter how monstrous we all know Mengsk is.
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Mar 11, 2024 19:40
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BlazetheInferno posted:Basically because it's the Swarm's Primary World and there's bound to be a bunch of Zerg there to take control of to send at Mengsk - taking on Warfield is sort of a combination of "Get. Off. My. Planet." but also, you *know* he's going to defend Arcturus if we don't take him out first, no matter how monstrous we all know Mengsk is. And she couldn't have just landed, grabbed all the zerg and flown off whilst man sits on his volcano planet like a goober?
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Mar 11, 2024 19:52
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Throne worlds are a big deal. See also the Protoss desperate to get Aiur back, and Mengsk rebuilding Korhal after it had been glassed. To be fair, Kerrigan repeatedly asks Warfield to just leave, but it's understandable why he wouldn't.
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Mar 11, 2024 19:55
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Natural 20 posted:And she couldn't have just landed, grabbed all the zerg and flown off whilst man sits on his volcano planet like a goober? Well, no, because 1) If she's going to reclaim her Swarm, by god she's going to take The Swarm's World back while she's at it, and 2) make sure Mengsk doesn't have Warfield rushing home to help defend once she starts heading for Korhal.
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Mar 11, 2024 19:56
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Also most Zerg infrastructure is very much rooted into the ground. Zerg as a faction generally don't leave places, they just grow elsewhere.
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Mar 11, 2024 19:58
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Yaoi Gagarin posted:I kinda liked Warfield. Shallow and underdeveloped character but he had a cool look and a cool voice. Wasted potential. Plus when I first played this game I was pretty mad for the same reason he is - he literally just helped us last wednesday and now we're here to kill him and all his dudes for no reason. Yeah Kerrigan just not responding to any of his very reasonable requests for her motivation is pretty funny Kerrigan gets scrambled as a character so many times over SC, 1) ghost assassin snarky professional 2) gets corrupted and enslaved by the overmind 3) gets freed from the overmind and gets a rude 'tude 4) shows up in SC2 now as a blizzard villain saying things like "fools, your light cannot fight the coming darkness" 5) gets dezerged and flips between female rage and puppy eyes for Jim 6) rezergs herself and flips between self righteousness and female rage 7) oh it gets stupider It's very funny when she just attacks zeratul on sight for no reason as pointed out in this LP, or tries to get righteous about zerglings being killed I'm looking forward to LotV, I was playing through it but got bored, the story is... Well, we will see!
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Mar 11, 2024 20:00
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Yaoi Gagarin posted:I kinda liked Warfield. Shallow and underdeveloped character but he had a cool look and a cool voice. Wasted potential. Plus when I first played this game I was pretty mad for the same reason he is - he literally just helped us last wednesday and now we're here to kill him and all his dudes for no reason. He's basically Edmund Duke from SC1, I guess Blizzard really regretted killing him off in Brood War and really, really wanted him back.
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Mar 11, 2024 21:25
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Zomborgon posted:Is the guy who delivers the snack bars to the military base a valid target I don't think that was even settled in that thread but it was settled that the Zerg war would be solved under a week with ten Terran casualties. Szarrukin posted:He's basically Edmund Duke from SC1, I guess Blizzard really regretted killing him off in Brood War and really, really wanted him back. I disagree, Warfield is a military commander who exists within the Dominion but completely disconnected from Dominion things like oppression and atrocities, Duke is an officer who is explicitly an executor of that oppression and those atrocities and he doesn't lose any sleep about that. They aren't bringing the same character archetype back, they are bringing in a cheap copy made by someone who didn't understand why SC1 had a good story, for a video game, that worked mechanically.
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Mar 11, 2024 21:41
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BlazetheInferno posted:Basically because it's the Swarm's Primary World and there's bound to be a bunch of Zerg there to take control of to send at Mengsk - taking on Warfield is sort of a combination of "Get. Off. My. Planet." but also, you *know* he's going to defend Arcturus if we don't take him out first, no matter how monstrous we all know Mengsk is. This is actually an example of a plot hole leftover from Brood War, I feel. Looking back at the SC1 story, the Zerg were really basically done with Char twice over. The Overmind stopped caring about Char when it was time to move on Aiur; the zerg presence left there was just Kerrigan and a couple cerebrates on a search and destroy mission for whatever dark templar were left. Char became relevant to the plot again in Brood War when those leftover cerebrates decided they missed the old boss and started growing a new Overmind after Kerrigan left - once Kerrigan and the shakuras protoss killed that she was done with Char again. The final mission of Brood War is only still on Char because all the remaining factions she screwed over happened to all show up at once before she could leave. Aside from "BUT IT'S MINE" there's really no reason why she should still be here, or care about the planet.
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Mar 11, 2024 21:57
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SIGSEGV posted:I disagree, Warfield is a military commander who exists within the Dominion but completely disconnected from Dominion things like oppression and atrocities, Duke is an officer who is explicitly an executor of that oppression and those atrocities and he doesn't lose any sleep about that. They aren't bringing the same character archetype back, they are bringing in a cheap copy made by someone who didn't understand why SC1 had a good story, for a video game, that worked mechanically. Warfield is an asset flip. They bought him off the Stock Character store and forgot to customize him any.
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Mar 11, 2024 22:00
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his name was Warfield lmao
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Mar 11, 2024 22:17
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bladededge posted:This is actually an example of a plot hole leftover from Brood War, I feel. From what I understand, Kerrigan did in fact change her mind and make Char her headquarters after the end of Brood War- which is why she's still there for Wings of Liberty. They may leave it once in a while, but there is a reason the Zerg just keep on coming back to it.
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Mar 11, 2024 22:18
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Zerg originally comes from a volcano world so maybe Char just feels like home. 
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Mar 11, 2024 22:21
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Poil posted:Zerg originally comes from a volcano world so maybe Char just feels like home. Well, there were volcanoes on it, I suppose Kerrigan making Char her home base makes sense to me, in that it makes as much sense as anywhere else and the planet is already a well-established zerg hive cluster. Her motivations between the games got conveniently lost to plot amnesia before anyone had to explain what they are, but they didn't involve wanting to go to war with the terrans or the protoss.
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Mar 11, 2024 22:24
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Hwurmp posted:his name was Warfield lmao
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Mar 11, 2024 23:19
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Warfield_TODO_edit_in_real_name_later
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Mar 11, 2024 23:26
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Char could make a lot of sense if they ever felt like it needed a justification. 1. It's pretty isolated. 2. It has a lot of mineral resources. 3. The zerg already have a massive presence there. 4. Nostalgia: Kerrigan was "born" there as the queen of blades, after all, and it's where she kicked everyone's rear end. But, they didn't see the need to actually explain anything, so it's just inexplicable.
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Mar 11, 2024 23:29
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SIGSEGV posted:I don't think that was even settled in that thread but it was settled that the Zerg war would be solved under a week with ten Terran casualties. lmao
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Mar 11, 2024 23:34
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It's like Mar Sara, it's in the original, it has to come back. I wonder what it was like to be the voice actress for Kerrigan, you ask what sort of character and voice they are going for and the voice director tells you "expensive", you frown and look at the script, you frown some more.
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Mar 11, 2024 23:34
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SIGSEGV posted:I don't think that was even settled in that thread but it was settled that the Zerg war would be solved under a week with ten Terran casualties. lmfao
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Mar 12, 2024 01:05
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Zomborgon posted:Is the guy who delivers the snack bars to the military base a valid target Isn't this the Independant Contractors on the Death Star argument? I will say that I don't think the Terrans have the ability to turn a planet into a Military Only complex.
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Mar 12, 2024 02:20
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Pretty sure that significant amount of civilians dies during Media Blitz in WOTL, unless you do some wild micro to avoid all car critters that explode after slightest touch.
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Mar 12, 2024 02:28
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SIGSEGV posted:I don't think that was even settled in that thread but it was settled that the Zerg war would be solved under a week with ten Terran casualties. Let's not forget the laughable infested girl Kerrigan who saw visions that if the everybody killed their cerebrates and burned their Overmind the dead essence of their primal ancestors would grand not only tenfold essence in return, but destruction of the new human/Terran civilization in the Koprulu sector.
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Mar 12, 2024 02:32
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