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Blind Pineapple posted:If Israel owned it, we wouldn't be having this conversation because there never would've been counter-narrative videos of the genocide in Gaza in the mainstream, which is what is really driving all this. So by the same logic we won't be having conversations about anything that looks bad for China?
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Mar 13, 2024 17:23
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Potato Salad posted:here's an exercise, you tell ME why you think it was banned Because China is a rising global power which hasn't subordinated itself to US foreign policy and therefore threatens America's self-conception as the sole global superpower, but at the same time, tons of cheap goods come from Chinese factories and tons of electronics in the US are produced using chips from Chinese companies. The inherent tension between those two things, along with the fact that Chinese businesses have a reputation in the US for caring even less about ethics than American businesses do, makes much of the US political discourse (on both sides of the aisle) deeply uncomfortable, and that routinely manifests in somewhat erratic policy toward China. Moreover, one of the core campaign planks of Trumpism was in appealing directly to that tension, by insisting that Chinese manufacturing and trade were directly responsible for destroying the American working class, and that only Big Donnie could save the American worker from China by using his manly toughness and his Art of the Deal skills to make all our trade agreements with them vastly more favorable. In practice, that mostly amounted to President Trump blowing up our good relations with China and stepping on a bunch of foreign relations landmines, with the result being that US-China relations are now fairly adversarial. Even the Dems, who want to retain relatively friendly ties with China for economic and "let's not get closer to WW3" reasons, have some concerns about the national security implications of allowing Chinese business to be too successful in the US, leading to stuff like heavy restrictions on Huawei sales in the US. And since the Chinese government has few compunctions about interfering with the operations of US companies operating in China and then kicking them out if they don't comply, US policymakers don't feel like it's a big leap to do similar things to Chinese businesses operating in the US. Potato Salad posted:Is...this an extension of the DEI backlash? What? The RNC is in severe financial straits, so it desperately needs to cut back its spending. The new RNC leadership are all diehard Trump loyalists who want to direct all the party's resources toward supporting Trump, so the first stuff to fall to budget cuts is all the long-term GOP outreach programs that were meant to benefit the Republican Party as a whole rather than directly benefiting the Trump campaign in the here and now.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:23
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Blind Pineapple posted:If Israel owned it, we wouldn't be having this conversation because there never would've been counter-narrative videos of the genocide in Gaza in the mainstream, which is what is really driving all this. Literally all of this was ongoing before the fighting kicked up in Gaza. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/us/politics/tik-tok-spying-justice-dept.html https://www.reuters.com/technology/tiktok-ceo-face-tough-questions-support-us-ban-grows-2023-03-23/ https://energycommerce.house.gov/posts/energy-and-commerce-brings-tik-tok-ceo-before-committee-to-testify https://www.npr.org/2023/03/15/1163782845/tiktok-bytedance-sell-biden-administration It's an absurd claim.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:23
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Riptor posted:Right.... and so how would your opinion change if that sauce is leveraged towards "Taiwan is really just part of China; they shouldn't be their own state"? It sounds like that would be something that Congress could actually bring up as substantive, at the time that it happens, if it happens. It would be a much better piece of evidence than "You sir are a communist capitalist, serving the peasants revolution with your millions of dollars" weird poo poo that doesn't make any sense right now. I essentially ask you in return, "If the danger is so present, why isn't anyone in congress able to give anything substantive, instead just grandstanding or taking about camera-eye-dilation-heroin"? (making GBS threads you not, that last one is real and it is in the Congressional record)
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Mar 13, 2024 17:24
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marshmonkey posted:So by the same logic we won't be having conversations about anything that looks bad for China? This makes me wonder, is China still doing it's genocide, or did they finish?
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Mar 13, 2024 17:24
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cgeq posted:But it's not about destroying social media. It's not even about protecting people's data. It's about restricting social media so the worse social media platforms become more entrenched. Which, perhaps not coincidently, are ones that regulate pro Palestinian content far more heavily than TikTok does.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:24
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Main Paineframe posted:The RNC is in severe financial straits, so it desperately needs to cut back its spending. The new RNC leadership are all diehard Trump loyalists who want to direct all the party's resources toward supporting Trump, so the first stuff to fall to budget cuts is all the long-term GOP outreach programs that were meant to benefit the Republican Party as a whole rather than directly benefiting the Trump campaign in the here and now. I was aware of hardcore Trumpers and even family taking more chairs at the top of the GOP, but I haven't been following GOP internals whatsoever. Google sucks and can't find poo poo these days -- got any sources on this issue with their financial straits?
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Mar 13, 2024 17:25
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Riptor posted:Right.... and so how would your opinion change if that sauce is leveraged towards "Taiwan is really just part of China; they shouldn't be their own state"? The real question is in what universe is a TikTok of America Corporation not under continued scrutiny for allegedly putting their thumb on the scales despite any actual evidence of that occurring? If they sell or retain their current structure the story will be the same, politically at least. Meanwhile Twitter explicitly advocates for Christian White Nationalism.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:25
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GlyphGryph posted:This makes me wonder, is China still doing it's genocide, or did they finish? Ongoing.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:26
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Riptor posted:Right.... and so how would your opinion change if that sauce is leveraged towards "Taiwan is really just part of China; they shouldn't be their own state"? All sauce is leveraged, why do I give a gently caress if one platform is more pro-China when I can get algorithmic slop that is pro-Israel and pro-US on other platforms? Is this really about just deciding some opinions should be allowed and some shouldn’t? All algorithms are black boxes, I don’t care in particular about what state actors have grudges against other algorithms they can’t see into, and I care about it much less than the actual material realities of a war with China lol
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Mar 13, 2024 17:27
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Killer robot posted:Literally all of this was ongoing before the fighting kicked up in Gaza. Yeah I easily remember these conversations from a year ago. The biggest issue I remember being that China can put its thumb on the algo to slowly drip anti-American/democracy sentiments to da yutes and make them I have no idea how realistic that is (I've never used TikTok) but it was definitely well before October 7th.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:27
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Potato Salad posted:It sounds like that would be something that Congress could actually bring up as substantive, at the time that it happens, if it happens. Again, they literally influenced thousands of tiktok users, most of whom seemed to be children, to contact their representatives based on misinformation. I don't even know if the bill gets out of committee absent that blunder by ByteDance.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:28
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Shammypants posted:The real question is in what universe is a TikTok of America Corporation not under continued scrutiny for allegedly putting their thumb on the scales despite any actual evidence of that occurring? If they sell or retain their current structure the story will be the same, politically at least. Meanwhile Twitter explicitly advocates for Christian White Nationalism. That'll be the next logical step, same as it always has been. I remind people that the national guard was brought out to handle potential violence during BLM, and they were expressly forbidden from rapidly reacting to a rightwing coup on January 6, 2021. The left-of-Nixon wing of anything in the united states will always be battered mercilessly before the right sees even the barest whiff of scrutiny, and I believe strongly this is why the bill we are talking about in the thread right now passed in the House.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:28
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Killer robot posted:Literally all of this was ongoing before the fighting kicked up in Gaza. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/tiktok-crackdown-shifts-into-overdrive-with-sale-or-shutdown-on-table/ar-BB1jBUo3 "Gallagher is well-liked by Democrats and his GOP colleagues and respected as an expert on the issue. His efforts appeared to stall in 2023, but were revived in part by the fallout from the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel, according to people close to TikTok and people close to lawmakers. TikTok’s users quickly inundated the platform with videos about the attack and Israel’s war on Gaza. Some lawmakers said TikTok appeared to favor pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel content, and renewed calls to ban the app in the U.S. TikTok’s spokeswoman said that the videos that lawmakers are concerned about were created by its users, and the company argued it has been fair in moderating pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian videos. “Oct. 7 really opened people’s eyes to what’s happening on TikTok” and its “differential treatment of different topics,” said Krishnamoorthi, adding that the coming election also fueled concerns. “People are concerned about interference using TikTok.” "
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Mar 13, 2024 17:28
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Potato Salad posted:I essentially ask you in return, "If the danger is so present, why isn't anyone in congress able to give anything substantive, instead just grandstanding or taking about camera-eye-dilation-heroin"? Because as a Chinese company, the US government is not able to subpoena ByteDance's internal records to understand how their algorithm works and to what degree they may have their thumb on the scale
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Mar 13, 2024 17:28
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zoux posted:Again, they literally influenced thousands of tiktok users, most of whom seemed to be children, to contact their representatives based on misinformation. I don't even know if the bill gets out of committee absent that blunder by ByteDance. Why do you keep obsessing over this issue? Oh no, the poor representatives got some phone calls. As if they even listen to one. It's so odd.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:29
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zoux posted:Again, they literally influenced thousands of tiktok users, most of whom seemed to be children, to contact their representatives based on misinformation. I don't even know if the bill gets out of committee absent that blunder by ByteDance. Is the "misinformation" you keep mentioning that they said this bill would ban TikTok, when it only threatens to ban TikTok?
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Mar 13, 2024 17:29
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Shammypants posted:The real question is in what universe is a TikTok of America Corporation not under continued scrutiny for allegedly putting their thumb on the scales despite any actual evidence of that occurring? If they sell or retain their current structure the story will be the same, politically at least. Meanwhile Twitter explicitly advocates for Christian White Nationalism. Yes but that's an argument for more regulation of Twitter and a future TikTok of America, not an argument against changing the status quo of ByteDance
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Mar 13, 2024 17:29
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Riptor posted:Yes but that's an argument for more regulation of Twitter and a future TikTok of America, not an argument against changing the status quo of ByteDance acknowledging this good point Edit: Can you see where I am skeptical that will ever actually happen if Tiktok is allowed to be singled out with a bandaid fix, rather than holding out for a proper consumer privacy protection bill?
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Mar 13, 2024 17:31
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Hey Potato Salad, Most of this has centered around whether or not TikTok is an ally of the people, and the support for that seems to be your personal experiences. Do you have anything larger than what you've experienced going door to door? Asking in good faith, I'm coming from a baseline of being incredibly distrustful of any multi-billion dollar advertising company. Bonus points if you have anything explaining how it differs a) from Twitter's place in the Arab Spring before Twitter went to poo poo (even pre-Musk), and b) how TikTok is making this happen in a way not currently occurring on any of the other major platforms.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:32
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Oxyclean posted:Yeah, it's a dumb reason. What they should do is go after all big social media and companies doing data harvesting, regardless if they're international or local, but we can't actually have meaningful consumer protection and interests in mind. The data harvesting is the part they like. They want that part to keep going. The US gov doesn't like an adversarial country getting all that yummy data on demand instead of them.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:33
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Potato Salad posted:I was aware of hardcore Trumpers and even family taking more chairs at the top of the GOP, but I haven't been following GOP internals whatsoever. Google sucks and can't find poo poo these days -- got any sources on this issue with their financial straits? they arnt bringing in the cash because high earners got tossed/retired/died mixed with alot of money being taken by trump directly OR by directing donors to him.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:34
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zoux posted:Again, they literally influenced thousands of tiktok users, most of whom seemed to be children, to contact their representatives based on misinformation. I don't even know if the bill gets out of committee absent that blunder by ByteDance. What was the misinformation? And it got a lot of people politically engaged? That’s a good thing. Americans should be calling and demanding things from our politicians more. Acting like that’s a bad thing seems anti-democratic and hell, I’ll say it, anti-American to me. selec fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 17:34
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Can someone explain to me what the supposed rationale is for banning tiktok but not FB or twitter? (I'm asking earnestly, I don't know much about the topic) The extremely dumbed down tl;dr version is: - China has a new security law that requires all Chinese owned or operated companies to allow the Chinese government a backdoor to access to their records/data without notifying them. - Tiktok was found (along with many other social media companies) to be harvesting much more data than thought secretly. The American social media companies that got caught got fined and FCC monitoring, but Tiktok can't be directly monitored by the FCC to prevent that. - A Chinese tech company called Huewei has been caught spying for China before using a secret backdoor in the offices of African Union and in government offices in India, Germany, and the United States. - There is no evidence that Tiktok has been used for that yet, but it could be used to do very quickly and secretly. - The U.S. government doesn't want Chinese security services to have a potential massive data gathering network pre-installed on millions of American devices that it could activate. The "ban" (it actually just forces bytedance to sell off to a non-Chinese company that will abide by American or EU data laws and isn't a technical ban) is an attempt to stop that before it happens. Essentially, they don't want another Huawei situation, but Tiktok hasn't been proven to actually have done anything like that yet. It's basically because the potential for spying uses that are undetectable by the U.S. or European government until it is too late + China + getting burned once already by Huawei = Western governments calls to get American/E.U. TikTok data management out of Chinese hands preemptively. Honestly, the most likely outcomes if the bill does pass are: 1) Bytedance just sells US operating rights to someone else and life goes on. 2) Bytedance fights in court for years and wins. 3) Bytedance fights in court for years and loses, then go back to step 1. 4) Bytedance fights in court for years and loses, then TikTok is temporarily removed from major app stores until they sort it out. 5) Bytedance fights in court for years and loses, then TikTok disappears forever. The end result won't be clear for a few years and will likely be pretty boring because 99% of people don't care what parent company owns U.S. TikTok operations. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 17:34
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:1) Bytedance just sells US operating rights to someone else and life goes on. More than 1% of people cared when Twitter ownership transferred. Why do you think it would be substantially different for Tiktok?
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Mar 13, 2024 17:36
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Blind Pineapple posted:If Israel owned it, we wouldn't be having this conversation because there never would've been counter-narrative videos of the genocide in Gaza in the mainstream, which is what is really driving all this. Please provide evidence for this claim
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Mar 13, 2024 17:36
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PharmerBoy posted:Hey Potato Salad, I think the people who suggest that TikTok hasn't been very useful at distributing information and fostering useful conversations much better than other social media platforms a) don't use it, b) use it in such a manner that it provides the content they deserve. The amount of information in every area including home building/selling, crafting, car maintenance, politics, news, technology and on is rivaled only by Youtube, quite frankly, but long-form content is sometimes less compelling when it comes to new information. If someone believes TikTok is doing some kind of grand thought reorganizing then prove it. Right now it's all theoretical useless thought exercises about how in people's imaginations it's a bad app.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:36
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Potato Salad posted:We have different thoughts about what is "irreplacable" and what not then. You -- rightfully and accurately -- point out that Tiktok the platform isn't irreplacable, and its not going to be a big thing in the future when it is overtaken by Kumkwatrr or whatever future app creates a better dopamine treadmill for burned out millennials and zoomers in the future. Circling back to this : Totally not going against your lived experience, I haven't done any in-person canvassing since before the pandemic, but to be clear : do you have any evidence that it's specifically TikTok that has directly caused this increased awareness in the youths, or are you just going off of the correlation? Because a lot of poo poo has happened in the last 4 years and giving it entirely to an app is a hell of a stretch to me. I'm not exactly demanding a full research paper here, but that's a biiiiiiiig claim to make.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:37
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PharmerBoy posted:Hey Potato Salad, Can't speak to the Arab Spring as I am not, say, an Egyptian national. On the front of political awareness / engagement / activity, I offer you only the stunning uptick of young people who will not only answer the door when they see I am holding <local hot button door opening conversation starter of that quarter>, but engage in a quality of conversation I haven't seen from people their parents' ages over the prior decade. Its not that I fear expanding the scope of the discussion to other platforms in the past, its that I am not enough of an expert on the Arab Spring to compare the two. I can't even say whether we might be staring down--thanks to this bill--the same reaction to the Arab Spring, where more media-savvy governments seized more of the helm of domestic operation of foreign platforms like Twitter and subsequently used it to cudgel opposition to death, often literally.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:37
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I worked for a Chinese owned oil company when Texas kept putting out laws to "protect American from hostile actors." They were blatantly racist and would bring into question if someone born in China that became a US citizen could own any property. It did lead to a fun joke of whether we could use the bathrooms at the office because they connect to critical infrastructure. The TikTok ban is very much the same thing because they refuse to regulate real problems with social media and just go China=scary to the point of demanding that the Singaporean CEO was Chinese.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:37
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selec posted:What was the misinformation? And it got a lot of people politically engaged? That’s a good thing. Americans should be calling and demanding things from our politicians more. Acting like that’s a bad thing seems anti-democratic and hell, I’ll say it, anti-American to me. Re: the misinformation: Aside from one fuckup that can be cited (and could be proportionally responded to with fines and sanctions, rather than this rather draconian first step revealed to us in this bill), you will note that substance surfaces neither from Congress nor in this thread. I note that another poster brought up their (valid) experience with their acquaintances and I/P, and I note that the answer to "were they misinformed there or was something they saw in the Gazan strip compelling on its own" hasn't been answered.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:39
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koolkal posted:More than 1% of people cared when Twitter ownership transferred. Why do you think it would be substantially different for Tiktok? mostly because Elon is/was a total fuckup. Tiktok being flipped to (probably) generic holding company wont get the same press
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Mar 13, 2024 17:40
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koolkal posted:More than 1% of people cared when Twitter ownership transferred. Why do you think it would be substantially different for Tiktok? I think the issue was that Musk did dramatically alter both the user experience and purpose of the app. If Bytedance sold to some U.S. or Canadian company and kept the user experience the same, then I don't think 99.9% of TikTok users would know or care where the parent corporation HQ is located.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:40
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:- A Chinese tech company called Huewei has been caught spying for China before using a secret backdoor in Africa, India, Germany, and the United States. Can you substantiate this please?
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Mar 13, 2024 17:41
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:mostly because Elon is/was a total fuckup. Tiktok being flipped to (probably) generic holding company wont get the same press Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I think the issue was that Musk did dramatically alter both the user experience and purpose of the app. If Bytedance sold to some U.S. or Canadian company and kept the user experience the same, then I don't think 99.9% of TikTok users would know or care where the parent corporation HQ is located. But there's already been multiple notable right-wing billionaires saying they want to buy it. Why would your assumption be that it would go to a generic public company and remain the same?
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Mar 13, 2024 17:42
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Xiahou Dun posted:Circling back to this : The data suggests that young people basically only use Tiktok, Snapchat, Instagram and Youtube (if you can call it social media). That's it. That's coming from 44% using Facebook in 2012. Tiktok content creators are on another level of reporting and information sharing. Take for example vaccine denialism. The doctors on TikTok who combated misinformation were simply better than any other platform anywhere in any form. That's one of a million examples. TikTok is profoundly responsible.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:42
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Xiahou Dun posted:Circling back to this : When the conversation steers to "Its lovely to hear your thoughts on XYZ, frankly this is heartwarming to me, where did this journey start for you" etc, it really is Tiktok Shock that has (I hate saying this) literally woken them up. I know Tiktok can't alone be the cause, as you suggest. A lot has happened to make the working class (and shrinking/sinking middle class) experience for Americans suck. From the hip, I think both work hand in hand: seeing a video wouldn't land as hard if it didn't resonate with what you are living. I want to thank you for not accusing me of having some kind of agenda, thanks for not shooting the messenger. I just couldn't sit back and not post when people were posting very very out of touch posts. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 17:43
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Shammypants posted:The data suggests that young people basically only use Tiktok, Snapchat, Instagram and Youtube (if you can call it social media). That's it. That's coming from 44% using Facebook in 2012. Tiktok content creators are on another level of reporting and information sharing. Take for example vaccine denialism. The doctors on TikTok who combated misinformation were simply better than any other platform anywhere in any form. That's one a million examples. TikTok is profoundly responsible. I think Xiahou Dun was asking for actual evidence.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:44
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Potato Salad posted:I was aware of hardcore Trumpers and even family taking more chairs at the top of the GOP, but I haven't been following GOP internals whatsoever. Google sucks and can't find poo poo these days -- got any sources on this issue with their financial straits? The short version is that GOP legal bills are mounting all over the country, GOP candidates are underperforming in elections and needing that much more money to make up for it, but RNC fundraising is way down as both the big donations and grassroot donations have shrunk significantly. The RNC had less than half as much cash-on-hand at the end of 2023 as they did at the end of 2015, and the fall is largely credited to a steep decline in fundraising that's forced them to trim programs and deny funds to state parties due to the fact that they're consistently bringing in less money than they planned to. That led to tension and infighting in the GOP party organs as they squabbled about who was responsible for the low cash flow and various electoral defeats. But Trump still completely dominates party leadership, so the blame ultimately fell on the current RNC leaders, who were driven out in short order and replaced with Trump's handpicked selection of fanatically loyal lieutenants. Those lieutenants are now overseeing the RNC's continued waves of budget cuts as they continue to struggle with the funding shortfall, but since they're loyal to Trump, they're aiming their cuts at everything that doesn't directly support a Trump 2024 campaign. Newsweek sums up the cash problems pretty well, though this was written before McDaniel's ouster: https://www.newsweek.com/republican-national-committee-running-out-money-1854454 quote:Republicans Are Running Out of Money
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Mar 13, 2024 17:46
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Fart Amplifier posted:I think Xiahou Dun was asking for actual evidence. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...al-media-sites/
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Mar 13, 2024 17:46
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