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Young Freud posted:I'm guessing something set off Bibi and the Likudniks because now the JP is claiming that Biden is looking to overthrow Netanyahu. The senior official is almost certainly netanyahu himself lol
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Mar 13, 2024 04:46
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Young Freud posted:At the same time, it does carry a lot of editorial weight, sharing a lot of staff between the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. Well, even if it's a credible paper, the story doesn't scan on its own legs. Like who could possibly be a viable replacement for Netanyahu that Biden would be willing to stick his neck out that far to get into office? The story just doesn't make any sense.
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Mar 13, 2024 05:07
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Young Freud posted:I'm guessing something set off Bibi and the Likudniks because now the JP is claiming that Biden is looking to overthrow Netanyahu. the us intel community put out a threat assessment report recently (same report has some dire warnings about ukraine this year). it noted that bibi is not popular, both before and after oct 7th, and his government might fall apart. i guess some staffer mentioning this in a report is biden playing 3d chess
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Mar 13, 2024 06:06
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Bel Shazar posted:But supporting Israel means supporting a country that has been, is currently, and will be committing genocide. Many inhabitants of Israel and Zionist supporters outside of it do not want to clear out the Palestinian people and want a peaceful solution which includes a state for the Palestinians. They get mopped up by the “Not One Inch” right wing decade in, decade out and haven’t had a viable plan for peace in some time, but a reform movement within Israel to give some land back for a contiguous, defensible Palestinian state is essential to ending this conflict. This would only ever happen if the US started massively scaling back their support. Israel is very likely not going anywhere, so escalation of this conflict will only accelerate the genocide of the Palestinians. Even if destroying Israel was not a fantasy, the fall of the Jewish state in conflict would be a genocide as well—either an expulsion or an extermination. People sometimes imagine a UN-managed one-state solution fantasy that people hold onto as a way out of accepting the consequences of the destruction of Israel. This is more fantastic than the two-state solution. The most likely outcome is a third of the Jewish people scattered to the winds and mercies of the Arab world. The cruelest lie in the revised Hamas charter is that there was no history of antisemitism outside of Europe—ask a Mizrahi or Yemenite Jew where they are still allowed to live. Things are not much better for the Ethiopian Jews in Northern Africa. Whatever horrific racism they faced from Ashkenazi Jews in Israel, they have been rather vocal about how much they appreciate the security provided by the Jewish state. The Zionists were simply correct that world Jewry would not be safe without their own state—unless you want to say the acceleration of pogroms in the late 19th century into Shoah were somehow inspired by Zionism (seen it before!), one has to admit that this was an insightful prediction. Even the traditionally tolerant Muslim world began to lose its contemptuous tolerance of the People of the Book and became more directly oppressive. It is easy for Jews living in the United States or people who observe the seeming successful integration into American whiteness and assume that Jews are essentially European, and so Zionism is simply the British colonialism on backwards indigenous “savages” the first wave of Jewish settlers believed it was. It is perhaps part of why activists from other settler-colonial countries—the US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia—become so convinced the colonization of Palestine has a one-to-one correspondence with that of their home countries. You may think the Israeli Jews deserve to be expelled or worse because they colonized Palestinian land, but the Jewish story has been five thousand years in the making and Arab nations (while more tolerant overall than Christians) oppressed Jews for over a thousand years. It is of course true that the Romans expelled the Jews, not the Arabs, and that the land changed hands well the expulsion. But as many people defending Hamas now will invoke, people will do hosed up things to get their land back, for their people to survive. Very few contemporary leftists are willing to extend this charity to the Zionists and rig their anti-imperialism to avoid the ethical quandary of a diaspora people struggling to reclaim the only territory that could be considered theirs from shattered empires. The Holy Qu’ran even contains an acknowledgment of the Jewish land-claim. By putting forward the elimination of Israel as the only way to avoid genocide, you ignore the genocide which would be the consequence, and the genocide it was erected to prevent. Perhaps these are theoretical now, but they were all too real when Israel was founded. The desperate years of the 1920–45 has both the British Mandate rub the Zionists’ face in how powerless they were against them, and the Palestinian nationalist movement starting codify and militate pogroms against local Jewry. Despite the beginning of Zionist terrorism against British and eventual Arab military and civilian targets, this dynamic does not fundamentally change until the British arm the Zionists after the Shoah. Jews indeed attacked or frightened Palestinians out of their homes after the British withdrawal, but they were some of the most desperate people to ever walk the earth in their darkest hour and saw little alternative. It would of course have been better if Israel did not try to take all of the land, but the sourness left by decades of anti-Jewish pogroms and Zionist terrorist attacks created the War of Independence / Nakba we know today, not to mention the blistering shock of the near-total liquidation of Ashkenazi Jewry to which we are so numb. It may seem that support for Israel must be support for the genocide because of the initial ethnic cleansing. Yet I think it is quite easy to believe that Israel was a necessity even if it was achieved by immoral means, while not supporting these latest rounds of bombing: one was genuinely a justified requirement for the survival of the Israelis locally but also for world Jewry in general, while the other is not. While it is not hard to see why Israelis in the wake of 10/7 would support eliminating all of Hamas, if the IDF would do its job guarding the border from terror attacks instead of shoring up West Bank settler sociopaths (which it was doing while Hamas attacked Nova Festival), Jews in general and the Israeli people would survive if they pursued a different policy option than genocidal war. It is not necessary for survival. Perhaps it is an abstract position, but one that must win out over the explusionist and eliminationist Zionist right and their mirrors on the anti-Zionist left (and right) if there is ever to be something resembling peace. While it may seem seductive to adopt an extremist position to maximally do justice to the horrifying depopulation of Gaza, the current cycle of bloodshed is completely impossible without the useful idiots who advocate oopsy-daisy genocide against a third of the Jews. There is a reason Netanyahu was so keen to fund Hamas to undermine the more liberal opposition, and although 10/7 caught him with his pants down, it has allowed Bibi to pursue his dream of clearing Gaza. nightsister fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 06:18
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nightsister posted:Many inhabitants of Israel and Zionist supporters outside of it do not want to clear out the Palestinian people and want a peaceful solution which includes a state for the Palestinians. They get mopped up by the “Not One Inch” right wing decade in, decade out and haven’t had a viable plan for peace in some time, but a reform movement within Israel to give some land back for a contiguous, defensible Palestinian state is essential to ending this conflict. This would only ever happen if the US started massively scaling back their support. Israel is very likely not going anywhere, so escalation of this conflict will only accelerate the genocide of the Palestinians. What ideas do you have, if any, on what would need to happen internally and/or externally to get a liberal Zionist regime which wants coexistence with Palestinians into power in Israel? Also, what would need to happen internally and/or externally that would provide Palestinians with the agency to no longer have their existence predicated on Israeli internal politics?
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Mar 13, 2024 06:29
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Israel was on something of a path of questioning itself and reevaluating its hard right before the 10/7 attacks, but that has been completely obliterated with the war. One of the only hopes for change within Israel is the United States standing back and setting hard criteria for aid instead of enabling absolutely everything it does. I understand why people think Biden is the most Zionist president in history, but he has been relatively tough on Israel compared to every US President since Carter. Hopefully there will be some pressure this year as the election mounts to start enforcing his “red lines” instead of rolling over. But more likely, Israel will continue to step over red lines and hopefully the US will eventually stop shielding Israel from multilateral management through the UN. Other efforts at international pressure like BDS may play a role. I just pray it will not be too late.
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Mar 13, 2024 06:38
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That sounds like pretty slim odds for the Palestinians. Thanks for a good write up on the pro-Zionist argument btw, was a good read.
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Mar 13, 2024 06:59
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nightsister posted:Snip Just wanna also say thanks for this really well thought out post, even if I disagree with a lot of what you're saying. Shocking to see something this thoughtful in this particular thread coming from an account registered yesterday. Personally though? I'm still all in for Isratin but realistically looking at it the only personal connection I have to the conflict is activism to get my country to stop sending bombs.
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Mar 13, 2024 07:35
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It seems to me like there would have to be such an absolutely massive shake up of Israeli society for the majority of Israelis to accept a contiguous Palestinian state, with its own sovereignty and legitimate armed forces, that it would look absolutely nothing like Israel today. It would be the death of Zionism, and I cannot see it happening without a great number of Zionists violently resisting such change.
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Mar 13, 2024 07:57
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nightsister posted:Israel was on something of a path of questioning itself and reevaluating its hard right before the 10/7 attacks, but that has been completely obliterated with the war. This is a complete counterfactual, as the most right-wing government in recent Israeli history was elected with overwhelming support before the attacks happened, with said government openly mocking US and UN references to a two-state solution being possible. You may wish it to have been so, but for the overwhelming majority of Israeli electorate it was not so.
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Mar 13, 2024 08:15
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Stringent posted:Pretty sure this is bullshit. I'm not really familiar with the Jerusalem Post, but given the other content on their Twitter feed* I'd be willing to bet that story is just clickbait. i think it's a law of physics for hardcore zionists to instantly become the most anti-semitic people as soon as any jewish person criticizes israel/zionism.
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Mar 13, 2024 08:50
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nightsister posted:Israel was on something of a path of questioning itself and reevaluating its hard right before the 10/7 attacks, but that has been completely obliterated with the war. This is complete horse poo poo. The reason Hamas gave for the attack on 10/7 was because Israel was accelerating the minimisation of Palestine as they further enforced their control of Jerusalem, and was working towards normalization with arab states to create the conditions for a single Israeli state solution. Also what is it about this thread that attracts new regs who come in defending a state currently engaged in genocide.
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Mar 13, 2024 08:55
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nightsister posted:Even if destroying Israel was not a fantasy, the fall of the Jewish state in conflict would be a genocide as well—either an expulsion or an extermination. People sometimes imagine a UN-managed one-state solution fantasy that people hold onto as a way out of accepting the consequences of the destruction of Israel. This is more fantastic than the two-state solution. This is exactly the argument made by white Boer supremacists up until the end of apartheid. quote:The most likely outcome is a third of the Jewish people scattered to the winds and mercies of the Arab world. Dog whistle aside, why would any Jewish person fleeing Israel in this fantasy not go to havens in the US and Germany? At least one million Jewish Israelis have dual nationality, the vast majority outside of Arab countries. quote:The cruelest lie in the revised Hamas charter is that there was no history of antisemitism outside of Europe—ask a Mizrahi or Yemenite Jew where they are still allowed to live. Things are not much better for the Ethiopian Jews in Northern Africa. Whatever horrific racism they faced from Ashkenazi Jews in Israel, they have been rather vocal about how much they appreciate the security provided by the Jewish state. You realise that this feeling has been engendered by the utter erasure of their Arab identities, right? That as soon as Arab Jews rocked up to the doors of Israel, they were covered with louse powder or spray, told they couldn't possibly be Arabs, that their backward nature had to be rejudeified etc? The term "Mizrahim" itself is an offensive exonym that was thrust upon them. Their languages are being erased. Their cultural identity denied. And whatever you think about treatment of Arab Jews there's a remarkable coincidence between the rise of Zionism and the status of Arab Jews. quote:It is easy for Jews living in the United States or people who observe the seeming successful integration into American whiteness and assume that Jews are essentially European, and so Zionism is simply the British colonialism on backwards indigenous “savages” the first wave of Jewish settlers believed it was. This is still common in Israel. The PM who's spent 16 years out of the last 30 ruling the country talked about the Yemenis in the Golani brigade being ok so long as they were led by white officers. The whole myth of singular, communal "mizrahim" identity has been manufactured to erase any backwards Arab traits etc. quote:You may think the Israeli Jews deserve to be expelled or worse because they colonized Palestinian land, but the Jewish story has been five thousand years in the making and Arab nations (while more tolerant overall than Christians) oppressed Jews for over a thousand years. Oh dear. This would need its own thread. quote:people will do hosed up things to get their land back, for their people to survive. Can't wait for Italians to batter the hell out of the UK because Romans settled here 2,000 years ago. quote:Words The rest of your stuff seems to rely on the completely false argument that people here are arguing for eliminating anyone. Kudos?
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Mar 13, 2024 10:28
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Oh look it's time for the next one in line to kramer into the thread and be treated as if they're posting in good faith for some reason. I love reading this thread.
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Mar 13, 2024 12:01
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Private Speech posted:This is a complete counterfactual, as the most right-wing government in recent Israeli history was elected with overwhelming support before the attacks happened, with said government openly mocking US and UN references to a two-state solution being possible. Yep. Any résistance to the government was completely unrelated to the Palestinian goal, and indeed when some groups tried to tie the "peace goals" to the movement they were shunned. I do agree that any change will require a massive amount of pressure from the US. Though most of it could be done with just not giving any more money or arms anymore, which sounds super easy on a technical level but might require a couple more election cycles in the US.
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Mar 13, 2024 12:17
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nightsister posted:Many inhabitants of Israel and Zionist supporters outside of it do not want to clear out the Palestinian people and want a peaceful solution which includes a state for the Palestinians. I would challenge this. There are certainly Israeli inhabitants who support a peaceful solution but I’m not sure that Zionists can be considered to want a peaceful solution which includes a state for Palestine, at least not in any non”Well actually, technically….” type way which isn’t incredibly problematic and makes the acceptance of a peaceful solution fairly irrelevant. Personally I think the peaceful solution you mention here is carrying a lot of weight due to how undefined it is. From my experience when Zionists do make overtures to some kind of peace deal, it’s often with enormous caveats around how it can be offered e.g. as long as there is any armed resistance from within this oppressed population of millions there can be no peace talks. Aside from the problems of that seeming unrealistic, there being no real suggestion that effort should be put into attaining this peace besides further attacks on ‘Hamas’, ignoring that freedom would bring about peace, etc the whole idea of expecting an entire oppression nation of people to go 100% pacifist before their oppression can be ended just seems so absurd. As a position to take it’s difficult to accept that it is the real position of people who want to achieve peace rather than a bad faith talking point to allow further killing while passing the blame onto the oppressed Palestinians rather than the occupiers. Not only that but if it’s someone invested enough in their Zionism to actually have a view of what peace should look like, it will often have very little resemblance to the legal rights of Palestinians and can often include continued Israeli control and occupation - a peaceful solution here boiling down to “lol, be oppress forever” rather than any actual just and peaceful solution. quote:Even if destroying Israel was not a fantasy, the fall of the Jewish state in conflict would be a genocide as well—either an expulsion or an extermination. The power difference between Israel and Palestine and how impossible this situation is to occur makes this irrelevant. Let’s focus on the actual genocide happening now, not fan-fiction genocides. quote:The Zionists were simply correct that world Jewry would not be safe without their own state—unless you want to say the acceleration of pogroms in the late 19th century into Shoah were somehow inspired by Zionism (seen it before!), one has to admit that this was an insightful prediction. Even the traditionally tolerant Muslim world began to lose its contemptuous tolerance of the People of the Book and became more directly oppressive. It is easy for Jews living in the United States or people who observe the seeming successful integration into American whiteness and assume that Jews are essentially European, and so Zionism is simply the British colonialism on backwards indigenous “savages” the first wave of Jewish settlers believed it was. It is perhaps part of why activists from other settler-colonial countries—the US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia—become so convinced the colonization of Palestine has a one-to-one correspondence with that of their home countries. We know that Zionists were shown to be incorrect. There is now mass acceptance of multiculturalism throughout many Western nations and policies and laws which actively protect Jews from discrimination. A Jewish state is not and was not required. Less than half of Jews live in Israel, despite being eligible to migrate to Israel, so there is not even a consensus that you must live in an ethnostate to be safe even within the Jewish community itself and the fact that the Jewish community still exists in such numbers outside of Israel is itself a rebuttal of that idea. quote:You may think the Israeli Jews deserve to be expelled or worse because they colonized Palestinian land, but the Jewish story has been five thousand years in the making and Arab nations (while more tolerant overall than Christians) oppressed Jews for over a thousand years. It is of course true that the Romans expelled the Jews, not the Arabs, and that the land changed hands well the expulsion. But as many people defending Hamas now will invoke, people will do hosed up things to get their land back, for their people to survive. Very few contemporary leftists are willing to extend this charity to the Zionists and rig their anti-imperialism to avoid the ethical quandary of a diaspora people struggling to reclaim the only territory that could be considered theirs from shattered empires. The Holy Qu’ran even contains an acknowledgment of the Jewish land-claim. As it happens I don’t think that and personally push for a 2 state solution on 1967 borders, however this is very much not a good argument for two reasons: - The same argument can be used in reverse to explain how Palestinians are in the right because they are an ethnically cleansed population seeking to return to their homeland and that they can never exist in safety while there is a racist Zionist state which has oppressed Palestinians for every moment of its existence. If you have an argument that can be used to support radically different things depending on who you view as the ‘main character’, that’s a very good indication that you’re supporting a biased narrative. -We already have a neutral framework for deciding this and its international humanitarian and military law. quote:By putting forward the elimination of Israel as the only way to avoid genocide, you ignore the genocide which would be the consequence, and the genocide it was erected to prevent. The poster you quoted didn’t say this in the quote. I went through their post history and couldn’t see it either. In the thread trail they were responding too I couldn’t see it either and instead saw people specifically talking about their being nuances of support to Israel rather than a binary. Also a single state Palestine with Jewish and Palestinian citizens with equal rights would not be a genocide but would still “destroy” Israel. It’s not my preferred solution but people do support it. quote:It may seem that support for Israel must be support for the genocide because of the initial ethnic cleansing. Yet I think it is quite easy to believe that Israel was a necessity even if it was achieved by immoral means, while not supporting these latest rounds of bombing: one was genuinely a justified requirement for the survival of the Israelis locally but also for world Jewry in general, while the other is not. While it is not hard to see why Israelis in the wake of 10/7 would support eliminating all of Hamas, if the IDF would do its job guarding the border from terror attacks instead of shoring up West Bank settler sociopaths (which it was doing while Hamas attacked Nova Festival), Jews in general and the Israeli people would survive if they pursued a different policy option than genocidal war. It is not necessary for survival. Firstly you are being a literal war crime apologist. Secondly Israel is literally carrying out a genocide as we speak, so support for Israel is support for a genocide (or ethnic cleansing if you think that it doesn’t meet the specific legal standard of genocide). Thirdly, though we can say that people at the time may have believed a Jewish state was necessary, we can categorically say that they were wrong based on our current knowledge of Jews prospering in multi-cultural societies. Fourth, you are using a biased Jewish-supremacy point of view to try and justify war crimes and human rights abuses. As everything is centred on Jewish safety and power, anything can be excused to enable that. Aside from it being a bided view, the problem with that is anyone can hold that view about any side. People who identify with the suffering of Palestinians can use the need for an end to Palestinian above all else to justify any actions against Israelis. The very arguments you decry from Palestinian supporters are ones you are using yourself, just coming from the other direction.
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Mar 13, 2024 12:26
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While I don't like Americans conflating their social struggles with other international conflicts (because it's often hilariously wrong), I feel like the phrase "when you are privileged, equality feels like oppression.", which is to say that Israeli Jews need to accept that their absolute security isn't something they are entitled to and that many groups around the world incur some risk in order to provide equality. Also a note that just because Jews in Europe aren't being pogrom'd doesn't mean that being Jews in Europe now is exactly comfortable. As a Jew in France I can say it can definitely a struggle for them - but that struggle is not entirely dissimilar to that of other minority groups against discrimination, but that's a whole other can of worms (because Arab Muslims etc).
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Mar 13, 2024 12:40
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nightsister posted:Israel was on something of a path of questioning itself and reevaluating its hard right before the 10/7 attacks, but that has been completely obliterated with the war. Emmmm.... no. Not even with the word 'something' doing Atlas levels of lifting in the first sentence. Israeli society has been turning hard right in varying degrees and speeds for my entire lifetime, and particularly since the Rabin murder. It's so wedded to a reactionary ultraconservatine ethnoreligious mold that is has two leading hard-right main parties. It literally had a chance to eject old warmonger ethnonationalists like Bibi recently and twisted itself into a knot to put him back in power with immunity. Hardline settler candidates (instead of mere settle advocates) went from being a bizarre thing to fully normalized. Horrible crimes like the violence during the 2018 march to the wall fully condoned and supported, when they were even acknowledged. The only 'questioning itself' present Israel is ever going to do is like the Greeks did after they wiped out Troy. "Huh, maybe those guys were not so bad, anyway we won and they're not around anymore". Maybe 60 years after they finish their ethnic cleansing one of them will write a book called 'Necessary Evils' or they'll wear kaffyies as a fad.
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Mar 13, 2024 13:15
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kiminewt posted:While I don't like Americans conflating their social struggles with other international conflicts (because it's often hilariously wrong), I feel like the phrase "when you are privileged, equality feels like oppression.", which is to say that Israeli Jews need to accept that their absolute security isn't something they are entitled to and that many groups around the world incur some risk in order to provide equality. I think these two points contemplate each other nicely. Multiculturalism hasn’t magically erased bigotry but that doesn’t mean that the answer is to make a separate separate society where your ethnic group is on top and oppressed others.
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Mar 13, 2024 13:41
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Quantum Cat posted:Oh look it's time for the next one in line to kramer into the thread and be treated as if they're posting in good faith for some reason. I love reading this thread. It's a coincidence. A long running coincidence.
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Mar 13, 2024 14:26
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nightsister posted:You may think the Israeli Jews deserve to be expelled or worse because they colonized Palestinian land, but the Jewish story has been five thousand years in the making Meanwhile you think the Arab Palestinian story only started a few decades ago, yeah?
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Mar 13, 2024 15:58
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TGLT posted:Meanwhile you think the Arab Palestinian story only started a few decades ago, yeah? Its just plain, unadulterated racism
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Mar 13, 2024 16:09
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I gotta say it's pretty funny that like a day after the idea that Hasbara trolls don't come here to drop off their propaganda was floated that we get a fresh rereg to do exactly that
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Mar 13, 2024 16:10
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nightsister posted:You may think the Israeli Jews deserve to be expelled or worse because they colonized Palestinian land, but the Jewish story has been five thousand years in the making and Arab nations (while more tolerant overall than Christians) oppressed Jews for over a thousand years. I'm not sure if you live in the US but if you did and a family from indigenous origins told you that your home was theirs now since their family lived there before would you exit your home without hesitation?
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Mar 13, 2024 16:11
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The Sean posted:I'm not sure if you live in the US but if you did and a family from indigenous origins told you that your home was theirs now since their family lived there before would you exit your home without hesitation? It's nonsense in any case. The Roman diaspora didn't depopulate Judea/Palestine; plenty of natives remained alongside Arab colonists that moved in during the Islamic conquest. A lot of those natives converted or intermarried over the 600 years until the Mamluk diaspora. The vast majority of Palestinians have old-as-written-history ancestry in the contested lands too.
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Mar 13, 2024 16:26
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I think their point is this: 1. Abraham is originally from the city of Ur. 2. Abraham is the father of the Jewish faith. 3. Therefore Jewish people should feel comfortable moving to ::checks notes:: el-Muqayyar, in Iraq, and evicting the Iraqis who are living there, who don't count, unless they were also from Ur originally. 4. I suppose the Levant goes back to Canaanites who were there originally? Makes about as much sense as any other Biblical distribution of land. Edit: That is clearly not their point but 100% the same logic. pesty13480 fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 16:34
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Good lord, is the Zionist claim on the land based on the Old Testament?
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Mar 13, 2024 17:00
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https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1767926129136971790 This seems relevant to the issue at hand for a very specific reason: https://twitter.com/PMBY89/status/1767940507685044735 I strongly believe that young people especially turning against Israel (and it's Democratic Party supporters) is a major factor in this ban going through.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:20
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PostNouveau posted:Good lord, is the Zionist claim on the land based on the Old Testament? Classic Zionism is based on the reality that Jewish culture originates in the Levant, mainly Palestine, and is centered on its features, seasonal cycles, etc. Zionism itself is the argument that this makes it logical - even necessary - for Jews to live there today. Without rootedness in their ancestral lands, Jewish culture is stagnant at best and diaspora Jews are weakened (politically, economically, even physically). This all basically boils down to secular nationalism - where there's a superstitious element, it's the idea of "rootedness" in a "homeland" - God's not involved. A lot of the early Zionists actually visualized Zionism as the liberation of the Jewish people from the Jewish religion, whose strictures functioned to keep the civilization alive and unassimilated in diaspora but wouldn't be needed once the Jews were normal again. Religious Zionism developed after the birth of the state and, obvious from the name, grounds itself in stories and ideas from the Jewish religion - Jews were assigned by God to live in Eretz Israel, many important mitzvahs can only be done there, the land is holier and Torah was designed to be done there, etc. So Jews have rights in the land that other nations just don't have in that land. Obviously these ideas were all present in Jewish religion for literally thousands of years but it was only after the establishment of the state that they became key ideas in any Zionist movement. Would be interesting to compare to the development of secular Palestinian nationalism a la the PLO and religious Palestinian nationalism a la Hamas. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 17:20
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Might be useful for the thread: https://hasbaratracker.com/
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Mar 13, 2024 17:33
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Jaxyon posted:Might be useful for the thread: bookmarked. thanks!
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Mar 13, 2024 17:53
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rscott posted:I gotta say it's pretty funny that like a day after the idea that Hasbara trolls don't come here to drop off their propaganda was floated that we get a fresh rereg to do exactly that Yeah. Might be worth ignoring them until they come back and actually respond to the replies they're getting.
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Mar 13, 2024 17:55
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https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1767924710946283595?t=dDKZGFq7Gj7zQV_kye1UXQ&s=19 Big Yikes from all of these Democrats attending a function put on by a group that's supporting Republicans trying to unseat members of their caucus but especially from Chuck Schumer who seems to be explicitly speaking against a 2 state solution here with his rhetoric that there will never be one as long as Hamas merely exists.
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Mar 13, 2024 18:09
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No. I'm done lurking and ignoring these genocidal fucks. I want them to come back and defend the Havara agreement. I want them to defend, with appropriate citations, the barrels of ink Hertzel and the rest of the dead eyed genocidal ghouls behind this wretched project spilled singing the virtues of antisemites and declaring their utter necessity to Zionism by driving the diaspora out of Europe and into Israel. I want them to have to spend as many words as they have eliding the decades of rape, murder, terrorism, and brutal ethnic cleansing on explaining why political Zionists in Europe eagerly leapt at every opportunity to work hand in glove with the Fascists to target and eliminate the politically-left and pro-diasporic Jewish labor bunds. I want them to stop desecrating the memory of the shoa, while referring to survivors as "soap bars." I want them to explain why a rogue nuclear ethnostate with violently expansionistic ambitions it broadcasts on the daily while committing the most well documented genocide in history, should not be violently and utterly swept into the dustbin of history. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Quantum Cat fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 18:27
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Thanks to everyone who got through my post without accusing me of being a bad faith actor, Hasbara agent, or Jewish supremacist war crime apologist. And please note that I was not accusing anybody of being knowingly genocidal, but that I was following through what I believe to be the inevitable case if Israel was destroyed *in conflict* as many who advocate a realistic solution (unlike my pious dreams) will be forced to articulate—unless they believe the international community will step in to dismember Israel, which makes your globalist suprastate management solution about as fantastic as mine. I know it is suspicious to pop in this thread for my first post here, but I assure you I am sincere. I cannot answer all the objections directly, since this post has been very popular here. Since ad hominem has come up: as of October 7th, I had been an anti-Zionist Jew of 20 years and a hard leftist of 10 years. I have feared this genocide would come to pass for most of my life, and there was no other way for me to interpret the Hamas attacks: this is how it begins. To my shame in retrospect, I felt nothing for the Israelis no matter how gruesome the reported crimes. When I turned to many of my “comrades” to talk about the looming catastrophe about to befall Gaza, I was completely devastated to find many of them cheering on Hamas and specifically NOT because of its impact on Jewish life. It occurred to me then that they were either completely delusional about the possibility of the Ummah teaming up to destroy Israel, or they simply don’t mind that thousands of Palestinians were about to die as long as Israelis “get what’s coming to them”. Heighten the contradictions, and it will all come out in the wash. This broke me. I had always advocated for the Palestinian cause and assumed good faith on anti-Zionists, and I had known many other anti-Zionist Jews growing up. But now I saw something else. I was happy to hear the world but especially Americans hearing the voices of Gaza, but I was very much not prepared for the genuine antisemitism which accompanied it. Virtually any leftist I talk to about this will either claim the new wave of antisemitism does not exist, is robustly justified by the actions of the Israelis, or sometimes both. I have nowhere to elaborate my thoughts without facing extreme social sanction either because I am a pro-genocide Jewish supremacist or because I’m a Hamas-loving self-hating Jew. Simply, I am here because of this thread. I have been watching it over one of my partners’ shoulder with some envy—as I saw my former comrades descend into Hamas rape denial and arrive at antisemitic talking points which more explicitly acknowledge the likely fate of the Jews if Israel were destroyed in conflict, it struck me that this thread is a reasonable back and forth considering the stakes of this conflict. I would add that most of the Zionist posts even here seem rather low effort, and are insufficiently spiritually engaged with the suffering in Gaza, as they are on most of the internet. Until recently, I was much more comfortable being around anti-Zionists than Zionists, and I still hate the heartlessness of most Zionists I encounter so that I do not want to be part of those spaces—those people have ALWAYS made me wonder if we really would have been better off perishing in the gas chambers than becoming what we are now. I cannot help but push back on these thoughts with Jewish pride rather than succumbing to an ideology that would see a third of my people endangered, or would have preferred they were left defenseless after the Shoah. Both Zionism and anti-Zionism are loaded with self-hatred, but as with any nationalist project, there is something to be said for believing your people deserve to survive. I do not think the Zionists did everything right, and I think many of their actions were quite evil. But I know of no state which came together without evil, and the world is not filled with sincere anarchists. I respect the hearts of anti-Zionist Jews but I question their understanding of the situation of world Jewry. I am seeing people here characterize my position as Zionist, and I think this is fair. I would note in response that most self-proclaimed Zionists I know would call me a Hamas apologist because I think Israel is a colonial project, regardless of what my other beliefs are, or take me caring about Palestinian life at all as something of a betrayal of the war effort. My position is characteristic of a tendency called Post-Zionism: one that considers the work of establishing the Jewish state to be essentially over, with our task now to live in peace with neighbors who we wronged. I try not to shy away from the reasonable critiques of Zionism because I did not lose my empathy for the Palestinians and their struggle for a homeland. Those pointed out my argument can be used for the Palestinians as well as the Israelis, you are right—the point of my post is that there are two sides to this history in a way which cannot be said for any of these other settler-colonial projects. “You can’t both sides a genocide” is a meaningless response when you accuse anyone who supports Jews establishing a homeland in the mid-1940s of supporting the current genocide in the 2020s, when the timing and vicious character of the establishment of the Jewish state in 1948 is a direct response to Jewish genocide in 1945. The maintenance of advocating the destruction of Israel, while holding the belief in inexorable liberal progress which has somehow proven that the Jewish state is unnecessary, boggles my mind. Zionism predates the Shoah by a half-century, and fascism is predicated on the fall of the just and humane order of European social/liberal democracy. Putting that aside, we take the case of the United States. Jewish integration into whiteness is strongest in the case in the United States, a multicultural settler-colonial entity that certainly deserves to be destroyed without counterargument by the standards of any baseline anti-colonialism. Anyone who attempts to make an analogous argument that the US, Canada, NZ or Australia may have been thought to prevent “white genocide” or to prevent religious persecution on the part of some pilgrim fruitcake cults is beneath contempt to me—white genocide does not exist, and anti-whiteness is not some kind of specter haunting every society the way antisemitism is, and there is simply no connection to the land. One look at the sacred texts of the Jewish religion will tell you just how central longing for the land of Israel has been to my diaspora ancestors. These other settler-colonial countries should be dissolved and the land given back to its original inhabitants. This is a long-held position of mine and I do not see any reason to change that. More importantly, the United States is about to hand the keys to somebody who promises to annihilate multicultural freedoms domestically and embolden dictators or those aspiring abroad (including Bibi). I did not take Trump seriously as a threat to democracy in 2016 but I do in 2024. Trump may use Jews but he will dispose of them when he is done, and I eye the German right with the same amount of suspicion. Consider the relationship between transphobic feminists and the Christian right and you will understand: exploit these rotten identitarians as reactionary footsoldiers by emphasizing common causes, then turn on the core issue without dropping the common cause: Trump is a classic antisemitic Zionist, and will back the genocidal war to the hilt if elected, but he will have no problem turning on the Jews who supported him after they help him drive out domestic Muslims. Diaspora Jews aligning with the domestic right wing in their countries is instrumentally irrational and will likely lead to some sort of expulsion. I have been living in Europe on and off right recently, and I can tell you that European Jewry is becoming extremely unsettled at what is happening in their polities. To this I add that European Jews are much more vulnerable than those in the United States, and moreover that the entire world does not offer the standard of Jewish safety available in the West. For those who believe I wishfully made up the self-questioning of the Israeli slide to the right, I encourage you to look into the 100,000+ strong anti-Netanyahu protests that rocked Israel for most of 2023 until something happened that October. The case was decided against Netanyahu’s power grab at the beginning of this year with universal indifference. For those of us who imagine that things have a function, consider the function of an unprecedented Israeli security failure during this destabilizing protest wave. Even mainstream left Israeli papers like Ha’aretz had to wonder aloud if Bibi had orchestrated the attacks directly, rather than the indirect way which was obvious if you know the history behind Netanyahu and Hamas. All this to say, I think the test of our multicultural democratic projects are to come. If the United States can somehow overcome its completely indefensible and unambiguously mass genocidal clearing out of an entirely “new” continent worth of sui generis natives to become a land of multicultural peace and tolerance, I do not see why Israel cannot after displacing imperial remnants from a territory the size of New Jersey. While we assume Israel is a European monoculture, Israeli culture has also become multiracial and multicultural between all the types of Jews (Sephardic, Mizrahi, Yemenite, Ethiopian) who have emigrated there. While we throw around “apartheid”, there are also a number of non-Jewish Arab Israeli citizens who certainly experience racism but are not literal second-class citizens the way the people of the Occupied Territories are. The normal post-Zionist solution to this conflict is to simply admit defeat for a Palestinian state and hope that the Palestinians can become full citizens of Israel like these Arab Israelis. But after everything is said and done, I do not trust the Israeli state with the Palestinians. I want the UN or a coalition of Arab states to guarantee the lives of the Palestinians the way the United States has guaranteed the lives of the Israelis. However pious and fantastic these dreams of resolution are (and they are pious powerless fantasies, just like yours), consider the value to the Christian far right that Jews and Muslims are now domestic enemies in virtually every European (or euro settler) polity and will be easier to use to wipe each other out. Consider the value to the Israeli far right that people like me who may have been long-term anti-Zionist now see the value in the existence of the state of Israel right at the moment when they are pulling the trigger on an atrocity that will overshadow their every other. And consider that before Hamas poked the bear, several tens of thousands of Gazans were still alive and countless homes still stood. In some respect one has to pin the blame for the structure of this situation on the Israeli state in general and Netanyahu in particular, but it would be completely impossible without Hamas’ attack for which we are all too prepared to excuse them. Please continue to put pressure on your governments to stop funding Bibi’s blank check genocidal war, but if you believe adopting a secularized version of Hamas’ politics on Israel is progressive or communist or otherwise left-wing, you will be part of movements in the polities where you live that make Jews like myself consider aliyah in the future and you won’t even know what you’re doing. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) nightsister fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 19:06
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A million words to say “Okay yeah when you drill down I’m a just a run of the mill Zionist but I feel bad about it, also let this little genocide go through, Israel will become a wonderful multi-ethnic paradise after we get done this this last one, I promise” We found the calmest Hitler I’ve ever seen bravo
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Mar 13, 2024 19:21
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Koos... your opus, your masterpiece... incredible.......
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Mar 13, 2024 19:23
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nightsister posted:Thanks to everyone who got through my post without accusing me of being a bad faith actor, Hasbara agent, or Jewish supremacist war crime apologist. And please note that I was not accusing anybody of being knowingly genocidal, but that I was following through what I believe to be the inevitable case if Israel was destroyed *in conflict* as many who advocate a realistic solution (unlike my pious dreams) will be forced to articulate—unless they believe the international community will step in to dismember Israel, which makes your globalist suprastate management solution about as fantastic as mine. I know it is suspicious to pop in this thread for my first post here, but I assure you I am sincere. I cannot answer all the objections directly, since this post has been very popular here. shut the gently caress up, bitch
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Mar 13, 2024 19:25
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nightsister posted:Since ad hominem has come up: as of October 7th, I had been an anti-Zionist Jew of 20 years and a hard leftist of 10 years. I have feared this genocide would come to pass for most of my life, and there was no other way for me to interpret the Hamas attacks: this is how it begins. To my shame in retrospect, I felt nothing for the Israelis no matter how gruesome the reported crimes. When I turned to many of my “comrades” to talk about the looming catastrophe about to befall Gaza, I was completely devastated to find many of them cheering on Hamas and specifically NOT because of its impact on Jewish life. It occurred to me then that they were either completely delusional about the possibility of the Ummah teaming up to destroy Israel, or they simply don’t mind that thousands of Palestinians were about to die as long as Israelis “get what’s coming to them”. Heighten the contradictions, and it will all come out in the wash. If you were an anti-zionist and "hard leftist" (lol) you would know that Israel's genocide began a long time before 10/7. But I guess I'm glad the discourse has shifted enough that you feel the need to mask your repugnant genocide apologia with an alt account and a bunch of paragraphs of drivel.
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Mar 13, 2024 19:27
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nightsister posted:All this to say, I think the test of our multicultural democratic projects are to come. If the United States can somehow overcome its completely indefensible and unambiguously mass genocidal clearing out of an entirely “new” continent worth of sui generis natives to become a land of multicultural peace and tolerance, I do not see why Israel cannot after displacing imperial remnants from a territory the size of New Jersey. See I want to take the other parts of your post seriously, but after accusing this thread of piling on with the most ardent antisemitism spouted on this topic, something that will get you instantly probated, and then "when he himself is made of carbon"-ing the United States regarding their treatment of the indigenous peoples of the continent, ignoring the continuing legacy of racism, against those indigenous and of course with the people dragged against their will from Africa, which exists to this day, and then casually referring to ethnic cleansing of people who've lived in what's now Israel and Palestine for millennia as "displacing imperial remnants" and specifying the state of New Jersey as if size of a country is relevant here, I find it hard to believe you're not this thread's version of jrode the watermelon-loving libertarian.
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Mar 13, 2024 19:27
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