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Dapper_Swindler posted:I mean, thats the nature of the net as much as it sucks. i personally like discord because you can find lots of big and small safe habours and usually have a much more personal help and friendships and those groups have places on other bigger sites and people can share different things they find. Funnily enough Discord is also partially owned by Tencent although their ownership stake is unknown. It's likely < 20% given some numbers I saw floating around but who knows. Tencent owns a lot of minority stakes in companies that should be very worrying if Biden or Trump decides to turn Sauron's gaze on them.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:56
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A Meatslab posted:Wait, is there even a remote possibility that ByteDance successfully divests, TikTok USA finds another buyer, and continues day-to-day operations in a way imperceptible to the user base? I would peg that as the overwhelmingly the most likely outcome
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Mar 13, 2024 21:00
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Related story from the WSJ a few months ago: Bytedance has taken some steps to protect U.S. data, but even when they are trying to prevent U.S. data from being accessed by the Chinese government, they are still unable to stop it. It also includes specific tracking of people who watch gay content and when it spun off its U.S. executive division they just moved executives from China there to run it. So TikTok is actually trying to comply with the U.S. demands in some ways, but Chinese law and the company's structure are preventing it. The article also has a good background about how TikTok has been on the radar of the E.U. and U.S. governments since 2017 and the technical difficulty of trying to just physically separate the servers. quote:TikTok Struggles to Protect U.S. Data From Its China Parent https://www.wsj.com/tech/tiktok-pledged-to-protect-u-s-data-1-5-billion-later-its-still-struggling-cbccf203?mod=followamazon Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 21:02
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Mendrian posted:Well precisely. That's the thing that's very telling about the 'tiktok ban'; it seems, from our perspective, unmoored from any reality. "It's Chinese, therefore bad" is dumb on its face yet somehow its garnered bipartisan support. If it were really about digital privacy or international media influence you'd think a more finely crafted law witch targeted the real issue, instead of laser focusing this one specific app. This is personal to these people, there's no other explanation. The only way it seems completely unmoored is if you haven't been paying attention to any mainstream politics since 1949 or so. Since the day the Chinese Civil War ended, the US has regarded China as a dangerous geopolitical adversary, and concerns about Chinese espionage have grown considerably in the last decade or two as more and more US electronics have been built on Chinese hardware and software, and especially in the last eight years since Trump blew up US-China relations. Seriously, do people not remember when a high-altitude balloon drifted over the US and it was national news for days, while Republicans proclaimed that it was an open threat from China against the US and that Biden was being a weak communist sympathizer by not immediately shooting it down? koolkal posted:This is the relevant portion (minus the weird "review" website exception section lol) and it appears pretty clear cut to me (not a lawyer though). Well, that text says quite clearly that it's wrong. And Massie (or whoever tweeted that on his behalf) probably knew that full well, based on how obviously they cropped out the parts that contradict his narrative. The reason I'm going after the messenger is because the messenger is the one making these incorrect claims, and the messenger in this case has negative credibility so no one should be taking claims from him at face value. Potato Salad posted:I suppose I intrinsically see this as a suppression tactic against the overwhelming support TikTok content creators post for things like Starbucks unions spreading, the occasional victory for healthcare access in a purple state, this slow expansion of things like free school lunches in a couple of states, etc. Others insist that it is genuinely about a sober discussion about domestic versus foreign media ownership, despite the conversations in Congress recently suggesting very strongly that that is not the case. Roughly a quarter of the entire global population uses Tiktok. It's not by any means a leftist space. There are leftist spaces on Tiktok, of course, and at times they can become quite prominent - but that's true of many other platforms, including pretty much every social media platform except maybe Gab and Truth Social. What little data exists about their partisan split suggests that the Tiktok community as a whole is not particularly progressive. For example, Pew Research found that GOP-leaners are almost as likely to use Tiktok as Dem-leaners are, and that the userbases of Reddit and Linkedin leaned significantly more blue than Tiktok did. Granted, "do they lean Dem?" is not the same question as "do they lean left?", but it's a reasonable enough proxy. As for people posting about Starbucks unions, healthcare access, and Gaza, I see people posting about that poo poo on every social media platform I frequent, all the time. Even Twitter, despite the new ownership there. Also, there's considerable historical evidence for the US concerns about the reach and influence of Chinese-owned companies in the US, the US concerns about data privacy and general ethics in Chinese-owned companies, US concerns about Chinese espionage via a variety of means, and so on. A common way of finding common ground is to rely on such evidence. The "fig leaf of national security" you mention is something that lawmakers have been quite concerned about for the last couple of decades, and concerns have increased significantly following Trump's anti-China posturing and the subsequent cooling of US-China relations.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:07
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I don't think TikTok will just be quietly sold to an american and if it is, I think it's safe to assume it will fundamentally change. I don't think Chinese ownership is good but I do think it is different, and the things that have kept minority groups at the edges of other platforms are fundamentally american. It ill be viewed with suspicion if nothing else. It is safe to be skeptical of TikTok; I again want to emphasize that I do not think they are a 'safe' platform, they are vulnerable, but they are also not a pipeline for Chinese propaganda because if it was we'd already see that happening. Why Congress is suddenly being motivated by a potential propaganda concern is a bit strange, particularly with this degree of speed and agreement. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy. But I do think it's fairly obvious that 'yeah geez, China sure could use TikTok for bad stuff' is not the motivating factor. Either it's personal, or they view the discussion happening there already to be propaganda (pushes for national healthcare and trans rights is obviously communist), or they know something I don't. And if it's the latter, I really don't trust the government to clandestinely affect my life.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:12
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I also want to point out something about one of TikTok’s supposed strengths. And I want to preface it by saying that I actually buy the argument that the ban really is about spying concerns. Yes, TikTok has well developed minority, lgbt+, etc communities, because it is extremely effective at siloing people based on what they watch, how they interact, and how long they watch. For the exact same reason, they have well developed right wing communities, supporting all sorts of terrible poo poo. You just don’t see it because TikTok silos everyone so effectively. So it’s very much a double edged sword.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:12
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Magic Underwear posted:What exactly do you think will happen to those communities if tiktok is forcibly sold to an American company? Same thing that happens with every American social site that gets big: the "algorithm" gets "worked on" and mysteriously promotes yet more and more right wing content down everyone's throats regardless of whether they show up for it, threatening the safety of the other communities there. Hardened veterans who can take the heat may leave a presence behind, but everyone else will pick up and move, again, again, again, again. Compaction cycle. "We are working to improve the algorithm to promote fairness...." yadda yadda. Seen it, what, almost half a dozen times by now. Same result. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 21:13
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Potato Salad posted:Same thing that happens with every American social site that gets big: the "algorithm" gets "worked on" and mysteriously promotes yet more and more right wing content down everyone's throats regardless of whether they show up for it, threatening the safety of the other communities there. Hardened veterans who can take the heat may leave a presence behind, but everyone else will pick up and move, again, again, again, again. The TikTok algorithm in America was already handed over to be co-managed by Oracle in early 2023.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:15
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:I also want to point out something about one of TikTok’s supposed strengths. And I want to preface it by saying that I actually buy the argument that the ban really is about spying concerns. Oh sure. My argument is not 'TikTok is leftist', it is 'TikTok is a place where these groups gather.' The fact you can open your phone and see someone who looks like you, talking to you about political issues you care about, is unique to that space. Yes, you can try to hunt down a youtube contributor or a subreddit that delivers things you care about, but you have to find and vet them. To say nothing of the fact that reddit and youtube are aging platforms. It is absolutely as horribly nazi as it is delightfully gay, no question. That still doesn't mean one should do away with it.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:17
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Mendrian posted:they are also not a pipeline for Chinese propaganda because if it was we'd already see that happening. This seems wildly naive
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Mar 13, 2024 21:18
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The TikTok algorithm in America was already handed over to be co-managed by Oracle in early 2023. We both know this is not about Project Texas and Larry Ellison's stake.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:18
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Riptor posted:This seems wildly naive Evidence? I mean, this time around there aren't even proverbial satellite photos of WMD sites. There's nothing.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:19
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Potato Salad posted:We both know this is not about Project Texas and Larry Ellison's stake. It's a different thing from Project Texas. It's not just the data storage, the U.S. version of TikTok has explicitly had it's own separate algorithm since early 2023. quote:The spokeswoman said the app’s U.S. algorithm is stored with its American partner, Oracle. She said the algorithm is trained on U.S. user data and supervised by employees within the unit, which is officially called TikTok U.S. Data Security, or USDS.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:20
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Riptor posted:This seems wildly naive Possibly, but I think it's a bit alarmist to pass legislation on an unfalsifiable claim. "TikTok is brainwashing us so subtly we can't even tell it is happening" is, you know, a position, but I would again argue this level of speed and motivation would make a lot more sense if they were targeting media tools that already have a known track record.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:20
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Nonsense posted:Representative Thomas Massie, says the law is very broad and might be used against websites any President wishes to ban, not just TikTok like apps. Remind me why you would ever take Thomas Massie, let alone any Republican, at their word.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:24
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Mendrian posted:Oh sure. My argument is not 'TikTok is leftist', it is 'TikTok is a place where these groups gather.' The fact you can open your phone and see someone who looks like you, talking to you about political issues you care about, is unique to that space. Yes, you can try to hunt down a youtube contributor or a subreddit that delivers things you care about, but you have to find and vet them. To say nothing of the fact that reddit and youtube are aging platforms. The nice part about Tiktok right now is that you aren't thrown in front of a firing line of far-right extremists just for being gay, where elsewhere that conflict drives wild engagement at your expense. That is the creeping safety problem with every other American social media site that gets too big. The Algorithm Gets Worked On For Trust and Safety, here is your new bottomless pool of rightwing agitators coming at your community nonstop.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:27
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Mendrian posted:Possibly, but I think it's a bit alarmist to pass legislation on an unfalsifiable claim. "TikTok is brainwashing us so subtly we can't even tell it is happening" is, you know, a position, but I would again argue this level of speed and motivation would make a lot more sense if they were targeting media tools that already have a known track record. I mean how do you think propaganda works, generally?
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Mar 13, 2024 21:29
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Angry_Ed posted:Remind me why you would ever take Thomas Massie, let alone any Republican, at their word. Yeah that seems like a pretty solid body of language specifically scoping to foreign non-review-or-travel websites, plus anyone who serves as the ISP of a foreign-owned non-review-or-travel website. He may not have read the literal words he screenshotted. Riptor posted:I mean how do you think propaganda works, generally? Yep. Can't even tell if he knows or if he didn't even read the drat bill.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:30
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Potato Salad posted:The nice part about Tiktok right now is that you aren't thrown in front of a firing line of far-right extremists just for being gay, where elsewhere that conflict drives wild engagement at your expense. i mean thats kinda the same as youtube though. its gotten way way easier to prune your content feed ove the last couple years, eepically if you pay for the subscription or just use ad block. i rarely see chud poo poo.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:36
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I feel the bipartisan support of the TikTok legislation comes from being able to sell it both ways to both sides. You can tell establishment liberal types it's "national security" and they'll think military industrial complex, propaganda sources, integrated circuits with built in backdoors etc. etc. You can tell right wing populists "national security" and they'll hear "filthy chi-comm furriners infecting our pure, innocent youth through the internets!" Do agree that even if it is an actual no-poo poo case of both sides, Americans are stupid and at the end of the day Biden has -D behind his name so that's where the buck will mentally stop with the public.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:36
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i mean thats kinda the same as youtube though. its gotten way way easier to prune your content feed ove the last couple years, eepically if you pay for the subscription or just use ad block. i rarely see chud poo poo. Yes, and its also possible to harden the hell out of your Twitter algo if you are extremely vigilant about it and use keywords extensively. That's a ton of work though, just to escape the neonazis domestic social media sites seem compelled to send after your rear end in the name of "fairness."
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Mar 13, 2024 21:37
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Potato Salad posted:The nice part about Tiktok right now is that you aren't thrown in front of a firing line of far-right extremists just for being gay, where elsewhere that conflict drives wild engagement at your expense. How do you know gay people aren't being put into right wing feeds to drive engagement on Tiktok? Like, the core of the Tiktok experience seems extremely passive compared to twitter/reddit/SA. The comments on any Tiktok video also clearly skew right wing, it's loving nuts.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:39
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Zachack posted:How do you know gay people aren't being put into right wing feeds to drive engagement on Tiktok? because social media is talked about CONSTANTLY, griped about CONSTANTLY, and has been for YEARS in my community circles tiktok is drat welcome because it hasn't used various minority statuses to drive right-wing engagement -- the "attack degens, redpill normies" playbook i assure you this isn't coming out of my rear end in the prior 24 hours or even this side of the turn of the decade.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:41
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Also in terms of propaganda my very limited opinion based solely on my random feed is that there is a very clear bias in promoting clean, productive, sometimes agrarian videos of Chinese crafts and also promoting the idea that South Asians have no food safety, are dangerous countries, etc. Almost as if China has a beef with India!
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Mar 13, 2024 21:43
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Potato Salad posted:because social media is talked about CONSTANTLY, griped about CONSTANTLY, and has been for YEARS in my community circles But how would you know when the overall system is so passive, at least on phone? The comments section seems basically useless compared to every other platform.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:46
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Zachack posted:But how would you know when the overall system is so passive, at least on phone? The comments section seems basically useless compared to every other platform. I think you will find that it is less passive than you'd expect, at first. There's a lot of activity in comments, and people follow response/stitch chains quite deep quite often.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:47
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Caros posted:This is from like a page back but what you were responding to is colloquially known as a joke. Sorry, sometimes it's hard to tell what is and isn't a joke online especially in relation to politics and political beliefs.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:48
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Angry_Ed posted:Remind me why you would ever take Thomas Massie, let alone any Republican, at their word. Especially when a very basic reading of the actual bill and not his carefully cropped version would tell you that he is lying through his teeth.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:50
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Potato Salad posted:because social media is talked about CONSTANTLY, griped about CONSTANTLY, and has been for YEARS in my community circles From the sound of things, it's coming out of purely anecdotal accounts that fail to understand just how incredibly diverse user experiences can be on platforms with hundreds of millions of users that are designed specifically to silo those users into wildly different experiences. My experience with other social media sites has, apparently, been very different from yours. This is, incidentally, why hard data and large scale studies are worth a lot more than individual personal experiences. It doesn't make any sense at all to make massive sweeping claims about the overall ideological balance of a site with a userbase larger than the entire population of the US.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:50
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Main Paineframe posted:From the sound of things, it's coming out of purely anecdotal accounts that fail to understand just how incredibly diverse user experiences can be on platforms with hundreds of millions of users that are designed specifically to silo those users into wildly different experiences. once again, the suppressed communities are left to shoulder the burden, because we can't say for sure with six sigma of certainty that the attacks are real Man, do you think all our lives are completely online? That there's zero real churn and contact between regional communities of queer and other people? The collective queer and disabled experience online must be lacking a larger context, despite all evidence year after year after year, community after community, locally nationally and across the globe tend to experience the same things? cmon Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 21:57
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quote is not edit, my bad Edit: actually, I do have a follow up post: there's a huge community of queer/trans people here on SA, and I am starting to wonder if there's a reason I'm largely not seeing a ton of us in this thread. it sure is tiring, and its barely been one day for me Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 21:59
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Pew has come up a few times, and I saw that they saw a significant shift in public opinion against a TikTok ban in 2023. First one from late March Second one from late September  The biggest shifts were among non-users and older groups. March of last year was when the bill was introduced and Biden started talking about this course of action, but I'm not sure what changed in the interim.
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Mar 13, 2024 22:03
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bird food bathtub posted:I feel the bipartisan support of the TikTok legislation comes from being able to sell it both ways to both sides. You can tell establishment liberal types it's "national security" and they'll think military industrial complex, propaganda sources, integrated circuits with built in backdoors etc. etc. You can tell right wing populists "national security" and they'll hear "filthy chi-comm furriners infecting our pure, innocent youth through the internets!" It’s pretty easy to guess why Republicans would be willing to give the president the power to ban websites they don’t like in advance of a presidential election they’re the favorite to win. This is a massive gift to Trump.
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Mar 13, 2024 22:06
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Potato Salad posted:quote is not edit, my bad bringing this up in another space I'm being told "yeah simply don't post in D&D" and I guess i'm the idiot for coming here and sharing the lived experience of queer people on american social media as cannon fodder to Make Number Go Up quote:
I'm kinda happy leaving it here, where there's still precisely 0 evidence substantiating the public narrative of the bill's passage today being about national security, with some posters believing that the inner narrative fits a darker, long-running pattern of cudgeling certain communities and some posters not beliving that to be so. China feels dangerous in this specific case, and some take that as enough evidence that Tiktok dangerous. Also all despite one poster having the wherewithal to point out that the Texas Project for domestic hosting and opening sources on how Tiktok works is already operational. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 22:06
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Potato Salad posted:bringing this up in another space I'm being told "yeah simply don't post in D&D" and I guess i'm the idiot for coming here and sharing the lived experience of queer people on american social media as cannon fodder to Make Number Go Up i mean as someone who is disabled, i obviously can't speak for everyone who is disabled, but i feel like alot of disabled folks just like being part of different communities and stuff. I dont join groups about my disibility or disability activism, because that stuff gets really messy often and gets stacky and filled with drama that gets personal and scary. i feel like alot of folks often try to get their comfort from other communities like fandoms or political groups or hobbiest groups because those places feel welcoming. Dnd for all of its issues and disagreements i have over policy with folks has always felt safe to me at least with disibility stuff, id say maybe try finding hobby groups and such, there are tons with large safe LGBTQ communities.
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Mar 13, 2024 22:14
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Dapper_Swindler posted:id say maybe try finding hobby groups and such, there are tons with large safe LGBTQ communities. got plenty for me and mine, the advice wasn't exactly solicited but it is welcomed in the spirit it was offered.
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Mar 13, 2024 22:17
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Potato Salad posted:got plenty for me and mine, the advice wasn't exactly solicited but it is welcomed in the spirit it was offered. yeah. i am sorry if i came off as a dick, wasnt intending too.
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Mar 13, 2024 22:20
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If not for Tik Tok I probably would have never heard an Atarashii Gakko! song and you know what? They're pretty good.
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Mar 13, 2024 22:30
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Push El Burrito posted:If not for Tik Tok I probably would have never heard an Atarashii Gakko! song and you know what? They're pretty good. 
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Mar 13, 2024 22:33
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I feel like it’s bad for a country to ban an app or website that isn’t expressly hosting illegal content. The internet should be free and all that, it’s my computer. Seems like it would have a tough time getting past 1A issues anyway, from what I read. They should just pass expansive data protection laws if they want em kicked out (lol)
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Mar 13, 2024 22:38
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