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the Dark Souls of video game genre definition arguments
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:00 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 10:55 |
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Roguelikes: +5% genre arguments for all future threads
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:20 |
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Rougelikes: Berlin-walling that interpretation
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:27 |
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How can Berlin claim s*** when it's not even in Rogue
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:46 |
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Ciaphas posted:can we just gas this stupid loving thread by now, honestly This is not generally considered to be Berlin,
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:54 |
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This thread is starting to feel procgen, with a bad seed.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 06:40 |
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Herbotron posted:the Dark Souls of video game genre definition arguments Just like how traditional roguelikes took dungeon crawlers and set a save paradigm where you can't go back because everything resets, soulslikes took dungeon crawlers and set saves up so you can't go back because almost nothing resets. Every resource spent failing makes the next run that much harder.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 07:31 |
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/wakes up /clicks on thread Omg the definition discussion is still on going! Ok, I will participate briefly. Roguelike is a bad genre definition and the name is a clue. The nerds at the convention didn't even try to abstract what the game was about so it could be applied more generally, as a genre label, no, they just invented a sliding scale to measure how close something is to Rogue. That's why I say the name is a clue. Hell It could be argued it doesn't even try to be a genre label, but just that, how similar is new game x to this specific game. A better definition would be something like 'step-based action rpg', where "step" refers to the simultaneous turn system where you do atomic single actions (ie. move one tile, attack one time) and the world advances too a single action. So I would call it 'SARPG', something different to 'SRPG' (Strategic RPG) and 'ARPG' (Action RPG). So I'm defining the genre as having three things -the step-based system -It's focused on combat and killing, hence 'action' -it has rpg progression, and usual rpg elements like loot, character classes and/or abilities/perks, npc traders, etc I think this would capture fairly close what trad roguelikes are without being particularly anal about some specificities like modal vs non-modal or procgen vs non procgen. Of course the same FPS has grown over the years to include arena multiplayer and tactical fps, and adventure fps, etc, you also can have SARPG without less focus on action and more on exploration and simulation, others with an actual plot instead of simple 'complete the dungeon', etc. Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Mar 13, 2024 |
# ? Mar 13, 2024 08:20 |
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"You and What Army," was sort of neat from that 7drl selection. The self aware space probe one was a little bit too easy to solve, still not sure what obelisks were for other than suicide.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 08:40 |
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bobthenameless posted:the fundamental axiom of roguelikes is "it uses the numpad or hjklyubn for character movement" imo I think I bought a mousepad from Hjklyubn on amazon.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 08:56 |
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Turin Turambar posted:/wakes up Disclaimer: I am arguing for the fun of it, I don't care about the Berlin interpretation or whatever at this point now that poker is a roguelike apparently I think my favourite roguelike for awhile now has been FTL, and I guess we can contort real time with pause (RTwP) as fitting this definition, if we just twist it so that a second (or whatever the actual 'ticks' are that the game counts time by) is a step, you progress in the game by destroying other ships somehow, and you level up your crew and ship with rewards from actions. The game is very modal compared to Nethack, the shop screen is unique and you can't rob them, there are separate step screens for ship-to-ship interactions and traversing the map(s!), and you can't access all screens at all times. FTL has both crew races with racial bonuses and maluses, and different starting ships, too. It's been probably over a decade since I last ascended in Nethack, but I began my ~*Roguelike Journey*~ with it, and what FTL captures the most out of that gaming experience are the highs and the lows that come with the RNG and the permadeath aspects of choices. FTL permits many kinds of viable strategies for
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 09:46 |
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Rappaport posted:It's been probably over a decade since I last ascended in Nethack, but I began my ~*Roguelike Journey*~ with it, and what FTL captures the most out of that gaming experience are the highs and the lows that come with the RNG and the permadeath aspects of choices. Roguelike is a vibe, not a definition It was kind of an interesting mental exercise to go over what deckbuilding roguelikes I would recommend to someone cold (turns out, almost none, and nothing that's a traditional StS clone) So thinking about more 'normal' roguelikes, if you were going to recommend 3-5 games to someone interested in the genre, what would they be? I'd probably go Caves of Qud Jupiter Hell edit: Brogue! I'd think about Cogmind. It's so mean, but a certain type of person would vibe with it. Similarly, Dungeonmans for those that'd dig the tongue in cheek. Extending it to action roguelites would balloon the list massively, there's far too many good ones, even going slightly off the beaten path of Hades/Risk of Rain 2/Dead Cells, there's tons of stuff like Curse of the Dead Gods, Astral Ascent, Warm Snow, Mortal Sin, Nova Drift, Roboquest, Star of Providence, BPM, etcetcetc, there's almost too many to list, even if I was trying to condense it to a small set of recommendations. Would depend heavily on if I knew their tastes or not. And speaking of words are made up and mean nothing, Project Warlock shows up in my library when I filter by just 'roguelike', what the gently caress - it's a non procedural FPS mirroring Wolf3d victrix fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Mar 13, 2024 |
# ? Mar 13, 2024 10:25 |
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Rappaport posted:Corollary: a lot of situations are survivable but can blow major chunks. You've based your run on a boarding crew and either get hosed by the enemy or make a mistake and your punchy boys die? That has almost the exact same feels as when you blow up your BoH in Nethack. A lot of the time it's still possible to dig up from that hole, but there is a definite hot minute there when you want to commit violence. Hah, just came to the thread to vent about exactly that! Accidentally discovered some new content in Cogmind a run or two ago but screwed the pooch, so have been trying to figure out how to get back to that spot. Did a song and a dance to get to a certain locked door that requires a certain passphrase, and as I step up to it I trigger an explosive trap, which hurts me and obliterates the access terminal, leaving nothing but a lonesome impervious blast door at the end of an empty corridor in the rear end-end of nowhere. I alt-f4'd. Dynamic storytelling my rear end.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 10:43 |
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Lost in Prayer has an Alpha trailer now~ https://store.steampowered.com/app/2849500/Lost_in_Prayer/ quote:Lost in Prayer is a traditional grid-based roguelike in which everything that kills you becomes playable. As a disembodied soul, possess the inhabitants of the afterlife to conquer either Heaven or Hell as you seek the final deliverance you were promised. Getting to play as whatever takes you out is a good idea, from the same fever-plane as IVAN in spirit.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 11:54 |
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Hello, I suck at Please clap thank you.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 13:02 |
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 14:20 |
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corrected for Berlin compatibility
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 14:41 |
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cock hero flux posted:I will argue that metaprogression, as commonly implemented, is absolutely not a legitimate part of the genre or a natural evolution of it. It is directly contrary to the design philosophy that established the genre. This is not the same as declaring that Halo isn't an FPS because there's vehicles; this is like declaring that Grand Theft Auto isn't a racing game because the point of the game isn't racing. its a convenient way of dealing with the frustration of failed runs in a roguelike, and people like seeing number go up cock hero flux posted:As a baseline, a roguelike in the original sense is a turn-based RPG. A roguelike is differentiated from the broader category of turn-based RPGs by two defining features: permadeath and randomly generated layout. Now, if you examine the design philosophy that leads to this, you can figure out, in at least a nebulous sense, what the "point" of a roguelike is. ie: why did roguelikes break the standard conventions of the RPG genre in this way consistently to the point where they became a recognizable sub-genre? An RPG is expected to have a save/load system that allows players to restart after loss from places other than the beginning, and it is expected to have a fixed layout that does not change even if the game is completely restarted. What were the developers of the various defining roguelikes hoping to accomplish by doing the opposite of this: making RPGs where you start over from nothing every time you lose, and in which the layout is randomly generated each time? Well, the straightforward answer is that they were trying to make each run a unique and new challenge, to make sure that the player was forced to approach them from a blank slate rather than carrying anything over from prior runs, and to prevent the pitfall often encountered in other RPGs where players are able to retry specific sections over and over again until they luck their way through. So, the goal was that each run would be a fresh challenge that players would have to overcome through their own skill at the game rather than by brute force retrying or by being able to overwhelm it with power acquired previously. With that in mind, consider the implication of metaprogression as typically implemented. This is not speaking to stuff like TOME's metaprogression of unlocking starting options. This is about metaprogression where the player's starting power level increases based on things that happen in previous runs. What does the addition of that do to the original design philosophy? In my estimation, it fatally undermines by breaking the layer separation between runs. Because dying makes you more powerful, brute forcing your way through the game by simply puffing your power level up to the point where you can complete it becomes a viable, and in some cases the only viable, strategy for winning. This is not an evolution of the original concept; it is a total reversal of it. i will agree that metaprogression that adds power to your character kinda sucks, which is why i think most roguelikes have moved on to it just unlocking more stuff. even then i think theres still room for it, hades for example uses it as a way to pace its story and it works really well babypolis fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Mar 13, 2024 |
# ? Mar 13, 2024 15:07 |
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So, Backpack Battles hit its full release, and it's a pretty enjoyable little experience. The new characters have fun gimmicks.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 16:05 |
ZCKaiser posted:So, Backpack Battles hit its full release, and it's a pretty enjoyable little experience. The new characters have fun gimmicks. Do you mean Backpack Hero or is there another roguelite with backpack mechanics?
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 16:52 |
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Backpack Battles is very similar, but it's a PvP game.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 16:57 |
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SKULL.GIF posted:Do you mean Backpack Hero or is there another roguelite with backpack mechanics? Backpack Battles is an inventory management PVP auto battler like TFT/hearthstone battlegrounds/Super Auto Pets etc.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 17:00 |
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Tequila Bob posted:All this talk about genre definitions prompted me to re-read the Berlin Interpretation, and: Behold -- a roguelike!
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 20:57 |
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Heads up, Nova Drift is going on deep sale now for the last time in a good while according to the dev - 1.0 is coming out at some point this year but the game is already bursting at the seams with content https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/858210/view/4115799300833592818?l=english https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/858210/view/4115799300833592818?snr=1_5_9_ goferchan posted:Behold -- a roguelike! I will love this thread forever Serephina posted:Hah, just came to the thread to vent about exactly that! Accidentally discovered some new content in Cogmind a run or two ago but screwed the pooch, so have been trying to figure out how to get back to that spot. Did a song and a dance to get to a certain locked door that requires a certain passphrase, and as I step up to it I trigger an explosive trap, which hurts me and obliterates the access terminal, leaving nothing but a lonesome impervious blast door at the end of an empty corridor in the rear end-end of nowhere. cracking up this came right after I posted 'Cogmind is mean' victrix fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Mar 13, 2024 |
# ? Mar 13, 2024 21:01 |
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victrix posted:Heads up, Nova Drift is going on deep sale now for the last time in a good while according to the dev - 1.0 is coming out at some point this year but the game is already bursting at the seams with content WTF, Nova Drift is still in Early Access? I played it years ago and felt it was a finished product back then.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 21:08 |
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:WTF, Nova Drift is still in Early Access? I played it years ago and felt it was a finished product back then. It's very VRUHH in that it could have launched and felt good ages ago yeah, I think the only real major thing to be added is the final boss for non-endless mode There's a dizzying number of upgrades at this point, I wonder if it has a non terrible wiki
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 21:22 |
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Everyone buy and play the gently caress out of Novadrift. It is incredible. Anyone try out the Desktop Dungeons remake thingie? Does it have gamepad support? I never played the original because circa ‘11 and ‘12 I was mired in DCSS to the exclusion of pretty much all other games.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 23:02 |
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unattended spaghetti posted:Anyone try out the Desktop Dungeons remake thingie? Does it have gamepad support? I never played the original because circa ‘11 and ‘12 I was mired in DCSS to the exclusion of pretty much all other games. It's bad. Bad UI, new graphical style is annoying and unreadable, looks like a lovely mobile game. Stick to the original.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 23:12 |
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It's kind of sad because you can tell that the devs of desktop dungeons have a lot of passion for it, but I also feel like the ugly original free alpha/demo version was the best iteration of the game and everything since then has just diluted the purity of the premise.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 23:16 |
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King of Bleh posted:It's kind of sad because you can tell that the devs of desktop dungeons have a lot of passion for it, but I also feel like the ugly original free alpha/demo version was the best iteration of the game and everything since then has just diluted the purity of the premise. I feel the exact same way about Spelunky.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 23:50 |
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Serephina posted:I feel the exact same way about Spelunky. I liked hd and despised the second. Feel like when creating a sequel you should listen to more than just the top tier expert players. Definitely one of the biggest disappointments for me out of something I figured I'd love without hesitation.
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# ? Mar 14, 2024 01:54 |
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Serephina posted:I feel the exact same way about Spelunky.
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# ? Mar 14, 2024 02:09 |
King of Bleh posted:It's kind of sad because you can tell that the devs of desktop dungeons have a lot of passion for it, but I also feel like the ugly original free alpha/demo version was the best iteration of the game and everything since then has just diluted the purity of the premise. Serephina posted:I feel the exact same way about Spelunky.
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# ? Mar 14, 2024 02:49 |
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unattended spaghetti posted:Everyone buy and play the gently caress out of Novadrift. It is incredible. Just get the original DD. The remake is the same but you see less information at a time because of the new graphics. Still a fun game but the remake wasn't really necessary.
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# ? Mar 14, 2024 03:24 |
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King of Bleh posted:It's kind of sad because you can tell that the devs of desktop dungeons have a lot of passion for it, but I also feel like the ugly original free alpha/demo version was the best iteration of the game and everything since then has just diluted the purity of the premise. this is Dwarf Fortress for me
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# ? Mar 14, 2024 04:36 |
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unattended spaghetti posted:Everyone buy and play the gently caress out of Novadrift. It is incredible. FWIW I like Rewind. I prefer the graphical style of the original Steam release but Rewind's a decent update (and I also like the improved balance). I do agree the UI isn't great, yeah. It does have gamepad support, I should know, I'm translating text strings for it right this very moment The improved combat prediction in particular is great, though I miss the codex.
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# ? Mar 14, 2024 04:38 |
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Steam Recommendations posted:LONESTAR is a strategic Steam Recommendations posted:Roguelike Steam Recommendations posted:spaceship Steam Recommendations posted:deckbuilder I'm starting to think it's never gonna end.
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# ? Mar 14, 2024 05:31 |
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The new Shiren is cool. The trailer did mention a theme of “back to basics,” but it’s funny just how similar it is to the first Shiren. I recognize a ton of the enemies. At least that riceball guy hasn’t shown up yet, though I’m sure they will eventually.
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# ? Mar 14, 2024 05:34 |
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William Henry Hairytaint posted:I like strategy! i think it's over for us roguelikers who don't care for cards, its taken over like metaprogression
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# ? Mar 14, 2024 06:54 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 10:55 |
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Lonestar is uh... not that
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# ? Mar 14, 2024 07:13 |