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fez_machine posted:this is Dwarf Fortress for me
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Mar 14, 2024 07:20
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Cogmind dev throwing shade with some easter eggs.
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Mar 14, 2024 07:31
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There are enough ""roguelike"" deckbuilder games that perfectly someone could make a new thread dedicated to them.
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Mar 14, 2024 08:23
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Lonestar is a simplified Spacechem roguelike with dice and kamehameha beams. No cards, though
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Mar 14, 2024 08:37
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LazyMaybe posted:pre z-axis? Yes
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Mar 14, 2024 08:39
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Why is the z axis bad? How do you dig too dig and too greedily without it? Did boatmurdered happen post-z-axis? I am full of questions here.
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Mar 14, 2024 08:40
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nrook posted:At least that riceball guy hasn’t shown up yet, though I’m sure they will eventually.  i'm still chomping off post-game dungeons. cleared cave of suiryu, which was a fun change of pace. really OP abilities but you have to play around them. fun little boss. also cleared domain of staff and scroll, which was maybe my favourite so far, but it's pretty brutal unless you hit the lucky combo wombo of fortune staff + reflective room to boost yourself to level 20 without fighting anything and actually giving yourself some HP. otherwise your heart is in your throat in every single corridor the whole run. the only ones left are the weird ones (path of gimmicks and path of shopping), the hard one (mighty isle, which i dipped into and then dipped the gently caress out of, will need to megaboost my gear) and heart of serpentcoil island (will be the last one i attempt). i think there's one or two more not unlocked yet, presumably locked behind one of the two path of dungeons i have left. A+ game. i imagine i'll struggle with heart of serpentcoil for a long while.
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Mar 14, 2024 08:51
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victrix posted:Lonestar is uh... not that I think deckbuilder is the new roguelike. William Henry Hairytaint posted:I like strategy! There is no deck and no cards. You have equipment slots and more equipment than you have the place to equip. The part than can slightly look like a deckbuilder in the boardgame sense is that during post combat events, you can edit the composition of the energy pool you randomly draw from if you choose to do so. Loddfafnir fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 09:01
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I legitimately thought it was an edutainment math game when I first saw it
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Mar 14, 2024 09:07
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Wait wait, so you're telling me that deckbuilding is so dang fashionable, that its terms are getting diluted by things that have neither deck nor cards?! The Irony, it is delicious.
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Mar 14, 2024 11:02
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victrix posted:Heads up, Nova Drift is going on deep sale now for the last time in a good while according to the dev - 1.0 is coming out at some point this year but the game is already bursting at the seams with content FINE, I'll buy another great roguelite shooter and probably have a great time with it, GOD.
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Mar 14, 2024 11:16
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victrix posted:I legitimately thought it was an edutainment math game when I first saw it
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Mar 14, 2024 12:16
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DACK FAYDEN posted:roguelike edutainment math game sounds like both incredibly my jam and something that could only exist as a Frog Fractions minigame, like that time in FF2 you had to prove you were of legal age by answering trivia questions about the Meiji Restoration http://www.calculords.com/game/ It's a deck builder
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Mar 14, 2024 12:22
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DACK FAYDEN posted:roguelike edutainment math game sounds like both incredibly my jam and something that could only exist as a Frog Fractions minigame, like that time in FF2 you had to prove you were of legal age by answering trivia questions about the Meiji Restoration There's Super Algebrawl which is basically the Countdown Numbers Round in roguelite form. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9mB1k3-neg
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Mar 14, 2024 12:57
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Serephina posted:Why is the z axis bad? How do you dig too dig and too greedily without it? Did boatmurdered happen post-z-axis? I am full of questions here. I much prefer the z-axis, meself. I’m fairly certain boatmurdered happened pre-z-axis, that poo poo was so long ago
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Mar 14, 2024 13:28
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i find deckbuilding games insufferable and refuse to play any of them anyway barony is a fun game and i like playing it with friends madmatt112 posted:I much prefer the z-axis, meself. I’m fairly certain boatmurdered happened pre-z-axis, that poo poo was so long ago Can confirm it was before depth in dwarf fortress. Which remains the best video game of all time to this day.
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Mar 14, 2024 14:12
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I know I'm in the absolute minority but I thought Dwarf Fortress was kinda ruined by the z-axis. It being all on one layer forced you to grow organically because of limited space, and that's how you ended up with labyrinthian ant farms like Boatmurdered, where there are levers you don't pull because you don't know what it does anymore.
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Mar 14, 2024 14:24
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nrook posted:The new Shiren is cool. Speaking of Shiren 1, I'm 15 attempts in and the game is kicking my rear end. I've mostly populated the high score board with my own games, and the farthest I've made it is floor 14. I think that's out of 30. Yeesh. There is some piecemeal meta-progression, but it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference as of yet. Once I get to floor 10 the game takes its gloves off. Although, I will also say that a lot of my splats are definitely my own stupid fault. Two separate times I've died trying to steal from a random dungeon shop. I even had the proper tools to get away with it the first time (both Swap and Paralysis wands), but still cocked it up. I just need to slow down and think some more about situations. Torneko was a lot easier than this game, I think. It may be a while before I can finish my write-up project.
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Mar 14, 2024 16:02
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William Henry Hairytaint posted:I know I'm in the absolute minority but I thought Dwarf Fortress was kinda ruined by the z-axis. It being all on one layer forced you to grow organically because of limited space, and that's how you ended up with labyrinthian ant farms like Boatmurdered, where there are levers you don't pull because you don't know what it does anymore. I thought it was a fairly common opinion at the time? The game itself was made significantly worse when the z-level was introduced. It kinda removed the natural flow of the game for more "realism."
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Mar 14, 2024 16:45
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I don't hate deckbuilders or anything but it's pretty annoying how every other game seems to be some kind of deckbuilder now and most of them don't have the game design chops to pull off anything interesting, and at the risk of inflaming discourse again I really don't understand calling deckbuilders roguelikes/roguelites just because I feel like some degree of randomization by default has to exist in them. I definitely prefer DF with z-levels, but I do think there is a certain charm about the earlier versions. I've got a folder with various DF releases going back to 40d with saves I've been toting around with me for years and years, maybe I should give the 2d version a fair shake sometime.
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Mar 14, 2024 16:47
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WarpedLichen posted:I thought it was a fairly common opinion at the time? The game itself was made significantly worse when the z-level was introduced. It kinda removed the natural flow of the game for more "realism." It existed but I don't think it was exactly common. Most of the community enjoyed DF as a sandbox first and foremost and hated the built in progression mechanics with a passion. There were a lot of community tips for how to keep your fortress from triggering progression (which would inevitably lead to the downfall and destruction of the fortress) so that you could keep playing in your sandbox.
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Mar 14, 2024 17:16
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woke kaczynski posted:I don't hate deckbuilders or anything but it's pretty annoying how every other game seems to be some kind of deckbuilder now and most of them don't have the game design chops to pull off anything interesting, and at the risk of inflaming discourse again I really don't understand calling deckbuilders roguelikes/roguelites just because I feel like some degree of randomization by default has to exist in them. No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 17:27
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Deckbuilders are cool but I swear they are so bad for exposing designer incompetence. Other genres get away with that kind of sloppy design because of obfuscation. When the main draw is blatantly mechanical stuff, only lightly themed, it is very difficult to ignore mechanical failings. It’s like a kind of telepathy experience, where someone’s notion of concepts expressed in mecchanics are so much more transparent. You can see the assumptions that lead to the mechanics as they exist, and that generates a greater and more vocal range of opinions about how mechanics are expressed since the intent and design philosophy are surfaced right in front of you. Also, complexity for its own sake is stupid as gently caress. You can tell when someone with engineer’s disease makes a deckbuilder. It’s immediate and intensely off-putting. It’s like people didn’t get the memo that Spire works because it is simple. The variety of twists on the baseline are what’s cool, not constant and unnecessary subsystems with their own bespoke learning curves and quirks. That, more than anything, is what puts me off the pretenders. e: referring to roguelike derived/inspired deckbuilders obviously. double edit: Just my opinion I know some people love tinkering. But also, Spire was a gamechanger and the descendents are always going to look kind of drab comparatively. That’s pretty much an impossible act to follow imho. unattended spaghetti fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 17:28
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unattended spaghetti posted:Deckbuilders are cool but I swear they are so bad for exposing designer incompetence. Other genres get away with that kind of sloppy design because of obfuscation. Imo the same thing happened with Character Action games in 2004 when DMC3 was released because it just couldnt be meaningfully improved on, but thats another shitpost. In any case I agree Spirelike is probably a more meaningful term than roguelike for those deckbuilders the term applies to. No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 17:30
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No Wave posted:The issue is if a game just does what spire does there's no point to it (see Roguebook if you dont believe me). Spire did so much novel and right in 2016, a miraculously ridiculous amount, but Spire is not novel anymore. One of the issues with the genre is Spire is so good and theres so little to improve on in an iterative sense but everyone's played Spire so their designs keep converging back to it. Balatrodev said he intentionally didnt play other games and if he had played Spire he would have ended up making his game too much like Spire. I agree completely. But I do think there’s room for the core concept of making selections from a limited pool to power up the player entity. After all Hades stole that whole cloth and reseeded it in a Diablo-style context to great success. And even if you go back to deckbuilders themselves, there’s plenty of room to redefine the baseline core of it. Take a base character, refine until death or victory, limited choices within pools, exposed enemy intent, so on and so forth. This is the scaffold, and you can do a lot with it. It’s just people either lack imagination, lack genre knowledge/understanding, cynically cash in on the craze, on and on and on. But I think it’s good the foundations have endured, even if most of the subsequent attempts have been limp and uninspired.
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Mar 14, 2024 17:42
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Snake Maze posted:Due to linguistic drift you have to look for the "Traditional SHMUPlike" tag on steam, otherwise you just end up with a bunch of deckbuilder SHMUPlites https://store.steampowered.com/app/624690/NEXT_JUMP_Shmup_Tactics/ Had some odd (exploitable) movement clipping the last I played years ago, but seems the perfect time to resurface such a laudable effort (if a bit rough around the edges) at a roguelike shmup.
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Mar 14, 2024 17:44
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unattended spaghetti posted:I agree completely.
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Mar 14, 2024 17:45
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Serephina posted:Cogmind dev throwing shade with some easter eggs.
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Mar 14, 2024 17:46
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No Wave posted:I thought Alina of the Arena was this at first which is why I was so excited about it. But the dev made a big mistake creating a perma-scaling super difficulty mode whose existence demands that all damage in the game be theoretically dodgable. Forced damage is one of the most important parts of a Spirelike, but again here I am going back to why a game needs to be more like Spire (I cant escape it). Aw that’s too bad. Been messing with it recently, and I already sensed some tedium. Like, play initiative, which cuts your energy to 2, dodge an attack but don’t have the ability to counter-attack didn’t feel very good. I was hoping it would evolve into something more interesting. I really loved the weapon system and how a lot of the cards were designed. I guess you could resolve that with a lot of unavoidable AoE but then the game turns into a near-clone, since positioning would stop mattering. Plus it feels cheap to have a mitigation strat nullified by natural progression that way. Speaking of itterative character growth though, have you guys heard of Stolen Realm? Mentioning it because it has a permadeath roguelike mode attached. Up to six character party, turn-based fights, kind of a Divinity-style system, with positional stuff and AoE and environment interactions mattering, a classless system that lets you mix & match abilities freely, kind of a Diablo style loot system and gear progression, can be played fully coop from one to six, and the game scales with number of characters as opposed to players. It has a normal campaign, but there’s a roguelike mode where you take a base character (preset from a pool of picks) through a series of fights in the fashion we know and maybe love. It looks really neat and the coop aspect especially is what compels me. Not sure if the roguelike mode is just a low effort addon though. Just hit 1.0 on March 8th. Thought about checking it out cause it looks pretty novel in its blend of stuff. unattended spaghetti fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 17:57
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unattended spaghetti posted:Aw that’s too bad. Been messing with it recently, and I already sensed some tedium. Like, play initiative, which cuts your energy to 2, dodge an attack but don’t have the ability to counter-attack didn’t feel very good. I was hoping it would evolve into something more interesting. I really loved the weapon system and how a lot of the cards were designed.
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Mar 14, 2024 18:07
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is Rimworld a rogue like?
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Mar 14, 2024 18:30
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Meowywitch posted:is Rimworld a rogue like? Doesn't even have cards
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Mar 14, 2024 18:35
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No Wave posted:The issue is if a game just does what spire does there's no point to it (see Roguebook if you dont believe me). Spire did so much novel and right in 2016, a miraculously ridiculous amount, but Spire is not novel anymore. One of the issues with the genre is Spire is so good and theres so little to improve on in an iterative sense but everyone's played Spire so their designs keep converging back to it. Balatrodev said he intentionally didnt play other games and if he had played Spire he would have ended up making his game too much like Spire. I'd say the closer comparison between CAGs and Slay the Spire is that for a long time, most indie CAGs were just doing Bloody Palace over and over again, much like a lot of games just copy the pick a path stuff from StS, even when they aren't deckbuilders. Such a pattern makes any meaningful improvements useless, because it can't really support a whole game. Beside those only Team Ninja and Platinum really worked in the genre and while they did make their own spins on it they also had their own problems design wise.
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Mar 14, 2024 18:40
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I'm not sure the same idea applies to CAGs. The big difference is that nobody is loving making them. You literally have only two teams making those types of games and one of them has been making more of the same and the other has been devolving for ever.
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Mar 14, 2024 18:43
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No Wave posted:There are roguelike deckbuilders (slay the spire, roguebook, monster train, cobalt core, too many others to count) and non-roguelike deckbuilders (pokemon TCG game boy game, Gwent Thronebreaker). I generally prefer the latter as in I'll enjoy them even if the mechanics are mediocre. People were quick to adopt the term roguelike for the former type because it highlights the distinction between the two types. Not sure what word you'd use otherwise. I don't think this is an especially strong reason to call the former set of games (slay the spire, roguebook, monster train, cobalt core) roguelikes. You can differentiate these games by the fact that the latter are games where you are playing against an opponent constrained by the same card game rules as you. Meanwhile in the former games It is usually only you that is interacting with the game via cards, and the enemies just have sets of attacks that they cycle through. Can you use the word rogue-like to differentiate these games? Sure. Is there possibly a better word? Probably
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Mar 14, 2024 18:51
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There's also the differentiating factor of games where you build your deck over the course of a run or match, and games where you collect cards to assemble into a deck prior to playing. So really, you could differentiate between the two types of games by just "deck builder" and "collectible card game"
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Mar 14, 2024 18:55
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By the way Nova drift is very good and it is even better at the low price it is right now. Simple and intuitive controls That feel satisfying, and lots of build variety
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Mar 14, 2024 18:58
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Jack Trades posted:I'm not sure the same idea applies to CAGs. The big difference is that nobody is loving making them. There was a actually a period in the 10's where some indies/small devs were trying to make them, but as I said it was mostly the Bloody Palace style arena fights, because you need decent animations for your main character and so the budget ran out before you got fun enemies or levels . Never really that many of them, because needing good and clear animations kept the barriers to entry high. You had stuff like Mitsurugi Kamui Hikae, Aztez or Assault Spy from 2014 to 2018. There are some ones that pop up occasionally but they seem to either die or turn into porn patreons. Also I can't really match which teams you are talking about, Capcom doesn't make them anymore, Platinum is both just making more of the same while also devolving, and Team Ninja has been getting back to it by starting over in the soulslike genre and quickly moving away from there with Nioh/Wo Long, which are sadly and probably the most interesting ones in a long time despite the baggage.
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Mar 14, 2024 19:07
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Tea Party Crasher posted:You can differentiate these games by the fact that the latter are games where you are playing against an opponent constrained by the same card game rules as you. Meanwhile in the former games It is usually only you that is interacting with the game via cards, and the enemies just have sets of attacks that they cycle through.
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Mar 14, 2024 19:12
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Hel posted:There was a actually a period in the 10's where some indies/small devs were trying to make them, but as I said it was mostly the Bloody Palace style arena fights, because you need decent animations for your main character and so the budget ran out before you got fun enemies or levels . Never really that many of them, because needing good and clear animations kept the barriers to entry high. You had stuff like Mitsurugi Kamui Hikae, Aztez or Assault Spy from 2014 to 2018. There are some ones that pop up occasionally but they seem to either die or turn into porn patreons. DMC5SE came out 3.5 years ago, which isn't fair enough for "they don't make them anymore", IMO. Platinum haven't had a good CAG in literal for ever and the quality of their stuff has generally been on a constant decline since Bayonetta. Team Ninja's stuff is pretty good in general but IMO it's CAG adjacent at best. I do feel the need to shill Slave Zero X though. That game has been the closest thing we've had to a decent CAG since DMC5 and it oozes style, even if that style is pretty drat weird.
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Mar 14, 2024 19:16
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